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  #901  
Old 03-19-2013, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by PiaDK View Post
I so much hope this marriage will not happen.

It seems like CP might very well get a "right-hand" role for Victoria in the future - which means he probably will keep his title upon marrying a commoner.

Just making a Google photo search on her name says everything - and it doesn't even show the topless photo of her, her nipples aroused, always used by the Danish tabloids.

I'm really not into the habit of Princess bashing at all. I just think it degrades the whole concept of modern royalty if Sofia would become a HRH.

How could dignified Silvia and Victoria approve of such a marriage...
While I agree with your statements I say if they are really really in love and have a good relationship they should be allowed to marry-look what happened when Charles was denied to marry Camilla in the first way because she was not attractive and appropriate for the heir?
Sofia and CP may marry but with her only as "Prince consort",no royal title.If she really loves him that should not matter-all you need is love!-and maybe later she will earn the royal title! Prince Philipp didnīt get a big title when he married Elizabeth II,only later he was decorated with orders and honorary titles.That should be the way for Sofia too-if they are 100% sure about their love they can tie the knot and later she will get the titles.
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  #902  
Old 03-19-2013, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Elektra View Post
Altar or not, she cannot erase her past...
If she makes it to the altar with Carl Philip, I doubt she'll be worrying about her past, and there'll be no point in anyone else fretting about it, either.

ETA And, as blauerengel has pointed out, she will have the opportunity to prove herself and earn a royal style and/or title.
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  #903  
Old 03-19-2013, 04:39 AM
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If she takes that opportunity seriously and not for publicity to sell herself as a suitable royal wife, then good for her. And good for Sweden.
But it's like her new clothes: she may look different wearing them, but that does not change anything about her character.Or her past, from that matter.
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  #904  
Old 03-19-2013, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
While I agree with your statements I say if they are really really in love and have a good relationship they should be allowed to marry-look what happened when Charles was denied to marry Camilla in the first way because she was not attractive and appropriate for the heir?
Sofia and CP may marry but with her only as "Prince consort",no royal title.If she really loves him that should not matter-all you need is love!-and maybe later she will earn the royal title! Prince Philipp didnīt get a big title when he married Elizabeth II,only later he was decorated with orders and honorary titles.That should be the way for Sofia too-if they are 100% sure about their love they can tie the knot and later she will get the titles.
Except there is no legal reason to deny Sofia the style that a woman marrying into the royal family would normally obtain. And she wouldn't be a "princess consort" anyway. It was completely different with Charles and Camilla- their divorces had to factor in. It was also different with Prince Phillip, since he was marrying a royal woman in a country that doesn't practice equal primogeniture. And still, he was made a royal duke, which is the title that all other British royals obtain upon their wedding- he was treated the same as Prince William was in that regard.
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  #905  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
Except there is no legal reason to deny Sofia the style that a woman marrying into the royal family would normally obtain. And she wouldn't be a "princess consort" anyway. It was completely different with Charles and Camilla- their divorces had to factor in. It was also different with Prince Phillip, since he was marrying a royal woman in a country that doesn't practice equal primogeniture. And still, he was made a royal duke, which is the title that all other British royals obtain upon their wedding- he was treated the same as Prince William was in that regard.
Thatīs right-there is no LEGAL reason to deny her the title,but as you see in this thread Sophia is raising a lot of eyebrows and her past is a problem for many ppl-so giving her no titles when she gets married is a very good compromise for everybody & she can still receive royal titles and honorary degrees afterwards.

If she really loves CP-the man and not the Prince,the fame or the attention of the press she will not mind receiving no title at all.

The Swedish RF could do similiar to the Oranjes in Mabelīs case:
Princess Mabel of Orange-Nassau - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Since her marriage, Mabel Wisse Smit may use the courtesy titles of Princess of Orange-Nassau, Countess of Orange-Nassau, Mrs. Van Amsberg. She was not legally created a princess, but received courtesy titles due to her marriage, since it is customary for wives of members of the royal family to take the titles of their husbands. It was decided that their children each would receive the titles of Count or Countess of Orange-Nassau and Jonkheer or Jonkvrouw van Amsberg.

They donīt need to exclude Carl-Philipp from the Royal family but give Sofia a lesser title for the start.
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  #906  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:26 AM
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how about the route they were intending to go with Jonas? Just the ducal title and no princess. It would also suit the whole gender equality issue.
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  #907  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
Thatīs right-there is no LEGAL reason to deny her the title,but as you see in this thread Sophia is raising a lot of eyebrows and her past is a problem for many ppl-so giving her no titles when she gets married is a very good compromise for everybody & she can still receive royal titles and honorary degrees afterwards.

If she really loves CP-the man and not the Prince,the fame or the attention of the press she will not mind receiving no title at all.

The Swedish RF could do similiar to the Oranjes in Mabelīs case:
Princess Mabel of Orange-Nassau - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Since her marriage, Mabel Wisse Smit may use the courtesy titles of Princess of Orange-Nassau, Countess of Orange-Nassau, Mrs. Van Amsberg. She was not legally created a princess, but received courtesy titles due to her marriage, since it is customary for wives of members of the royal family to take the titles of their husbands. It was decided that their children each would receive the titles of Count or Countess of Orange-Nassau and Jonkheer or Jonkvrouw van Amsberg.

They donīt need to exclude Carl-Philipp from the Royal family but give Sofia a lesser title for the start.
The Swedish Royal Family is not obligated to come up with a compromise that pleases members of the Royal Forums. I'd think you maybe had a point if there was widespread dislike of her throughout Sweden and a lot of opposition to her becoming a princess, but there doesn't seem to be.

The reason there was a compromise with the Oranjes is because Prince Friso decided to marry without the approval of the government. There was a legal reason to deny Mabel a title.

And whether she cares about the title is irrelevant- if she should she marry Carl Philip, she should be treated as any other woman marrying Carl Philip would be treated.
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  #908  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
The Swedish Royal Family is not obligated to come up with a compromise that pleases members of the Royal Forums. I'd think you maybe had a point if there was widespread dislike of her throughout Sweden and a lot of opposition to her becoming a princess, but there doesn't seem to be.

The reason there was a compromise with the Oranjes is because Prince Friso decided to marry without the approval of the government. There was a legal reason to deny Mabel a title.

And whether she cares about the title is irrelevant- if she should she marry Carl Philip, she should be treated as any other woman marrying Carl Philip would be treated.
The members of TRF represent a part of the general society and EVERY European royal family needs to care for the public opinion unless they want to be abolished
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Avoiding danger in the long run is no safer than outright exposure.
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  #909  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
The members of TRF represent a part of the general society and EVERY European royal family needs to care for the public opinion unless they want to be abolished
The members of the Royal Forums represent a very small slice of the population, and are located internationally and not concentrated in Sweden. The Swedish Royal Family has an obligation to the Swedish people, not to public opinion outside of Sweden, especially on something as trivial as who marries the (for now) third in line to the throne.

I haven't seen any evidence that there's great concern in Sweden about this relationship or that this marriage would endanger the monarchy.
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  #910  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:41 AM
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You are correct, the legal base for not allowing princess Mabel the title of princess of The Netherlands is different. In Sweden the government doesn't need to give permission to a wedding of a royal AFAIK.

Perhaps the situation in Luxembourg is more useful, princess Tessy originally started as 'plain' Mrs. de Nassau when she married prince Louis in 2006. Though three years later the Grand Duke made her a princess of Luxembourg with the style of HRH by proclamation.
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  #911  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:45 AM
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Thank you,Marengo-Tessyīs example is better for Sophiaīs case!
I donīt deny anyone the right to marry the love of their life, but certain standards should be approved for getting a honorary title because otherwise it devalues the whole Royal family if everyone is accpeted.
It is like a university degree-if everybody no matter how hard they work or if the learn at all-receive it, nobody would respect the univeryity title anymore or degrees from that special university that is giving title without any work required!
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Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it.
Avoiding danger in the long run is no safer than outright exposure.
Life is either a daring adventure,or nothing
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  #912  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
You are correct, the legal base for not allowing princess Mabel the title of princess of The Netherlands is different. In Sweden the government doesn't need to give permission to a wedding of a royal AFAIK.

Perhaps the situation in Luxembourg is more useful, princess Tessy originally started as 'plain' Mrs. de Nassau when she married prince Louis in 2006. Though three years later the Grand Duke made her a princess of Luxembourg by proclamation.
But wasn't that also due to the decision of Prince Louis to renounce his succession rights and those of their children due to the fact that she had their first child outside of the marriage?

There may not have been a legal reason for it, but it was following a precedent set in the family before.

I'm sorry to sound like a broken record, but I just don't see any reason that would justify Sofia not being treated like any other woman marrying into the family.
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  #913  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Perhaps the situation in Luxembourg is more useful, princess Tessy originally started as 'plain' Mrs. de Nassau when she married prince Louis in 2006. Though three years later the Grand Duke made her a princess of Luxembourg with the style of HRH by proclamation.
Not sure if we can compare these situations either. Tessy and her prince 'had' to get married because she got pregnant. And as such it would have been very reasonable to be sceptical about the future of that marriage. This is not the case with our Swedish couple.
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  #914  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
Thank you,Marengo-Tessyīs example is better for Sophiaīs case!
I donīt deny anyone the right to marry the love of their life, but certain standards should be approved for getting a honorary title because otherwise it devalues the whole Royal family if everyone is accpeted.
!
The royals themselves did not have to do anything to earn their titles. They were born into them. We accept this about them.

As far as I'm concerned, it should be the same with people who marry in. If they're loved and accepted by the family, that's really all that's required. Royalty is not a meritocracy.
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  #915  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:52 AM
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Well,we wonīt find any woman who has a 100% similiar background like Sophia and I will repeat that I donīt care about her past as long as she makes up for it by being a dutiful princess and really loves the Prince-what I am afraid is that she is an attention-seeker and chose Carl-Philipp for the wrong reasons and not for love...

But we donīt know what is truly going on in their minds and I am happy that she chose to alter her outfits to more demure,elegant clothes that are suitable for a Princess.

Aristocracy is a word dervied from "aristoi"= the best-meaning top of the crop- so they should not allow everybody in their exclusive circles.
If you are born into nobility itīs fine and I could think of many royals who donīt behave very noble or regal-but they are born royals...

If she loves CP-the man- she has my approval,she will need to work hard to be accepted but with time she will get the credit she deserves and everyone will see the qualities that she posesses and that made CP fall in love with her.
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Avoiding danger in the long run is no safer than outright exposure.
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  #916  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:59 AM
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As I stated earlier in this thread, I think there are very good reasons to be sceptical about Sofia Hellqvist, much more so than in the case of Princess Tessy. But indeed, technically there is no basis for giving her any other style/title that any more suitable spouse of CP would have. And I am sure that the couple will not be forced to renounce any succession rights or to give up any titles.

But it is hard to swallow for many. IMHO Sofia is by far the most unsuitable person to be marrying into a reigning royal since Magda Lupescu perhaps. Her entry into the RF makes the institute look like a joke which serves the same purpose as does Big Brother, Paradise Hotel and other reality programmes. And again, I don't mind her past actions all that much if she would have shown any real signs of wanting to change her life. But instead, her total lack of discretion seems to say the opposite. That she usually looks like the cat who ate the canary whenever she is with the RF, isn't too redeeming either. Though I will admit that that impression may be tainted by my already existing objections to her. Anyway she will have time enough to prove us wrong and let's hope that she will.
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  #917  
Old 03-19-2013, 06:20 AM
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I'm glad that Prince Carl Philip will marry for love and not allow outside judgement dictate who's suitable enough for him to marry. The Swedish Monarchy is in no danger if Sofia is to marry Carl Philip. I think if the royals welcome her with open arms, then everyone will just have to deal with it.

People can choose to focus on the past but these folks are moving on.
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  #918  
Old 03-19-2013, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
I think if the royals welcome her with open arms, then everyone will just have to deal with it.
How do you know that the royals welcome her with open arms and not just tolerate the situation?
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  #919  
Old 03-19-2013, 06:51 AM
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From what I see, the royal family seem to really like Sofia and enjoy her company. Carl Philip's sisters seem to enjoy having her around and The King & Queen have even vacationed with Sofia. I don't see them tossing her into the lions den for what she may have done in the past.

I think it's best to take Carl Philip's feelings into consideration. Carl Philip seem to really love Sofia and Sofia seem to really love Carl Philip. In reality, I think their love and friendship is all that matters. If they decide to take the next step, I send them all my best wishes.
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  #920  
Old 03-19-2013, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
As I stated earlier in this thread, I think there are very good reasons to be sceptical about Sofia Hellqvist, much more so than in the case of Princess Tessy. But indeed, technically there is no basis for giving her any other style/title that any more suitable spouse of CP would have. And I am sure that the couple will not be forced to renounce any succession rights or to give up any titles.

But it is hard to swallow for many. IMHO Sofia is by far the most unsuitable person to be marrying into a reigning royal since Marda Lupescu perhaps. And again, I don't mind her past actions all that much if she would have shown any real signs of wanting to change her life. But instead, her total lack of discretion seems to say the opposite. But she will have time enough to prove us wrong.
My sense is that the paths are being cleared for a royal engagement at the appropriate juncture. The way Sophia has been part of the royal family at very public events (funeral of Lillian, christening of Estelle) seems to suggest that the King and Queen have accepted the position, and seem to be willing to accept her as a member of the familyu
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