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  #881  
Old 03-18-2013, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
I agree that they should be equal but Madeleine is also choosing not to live in Sweden or take on many royal duties. If Carl Philip and Sofia are going to remain in Sweden and support Victoria and Daniel, it makes sense for them to retain titles.
It's true that Madeleine and Chris won't live in Sweden for now, but who knows what their plans are for the future? Or for that matter, if Carl Philip will remain in Sweden for the rest of his life? As far as I know Madeleine will remain HRH and princess of Sweden even after her marriage, as well as Carl Philip keeping his title when he marries, but I don't see a reason why only Carl Philip's spouse should get the title HRH. Even with a lesser title than HRH and princess of Sweden, Carl Philip's spouse should be able to perform royal duties if it's her wish do do so.

Is the XY gene so much more worth for a royal??
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  #882  
Old 03-18-2013, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
Well said. I agree 100%
So do I, and I'll say additionally that I think a lot of this comes from some ingrained misogyny and some very backwards ideas about women and sexuality. It's slut shaming- treating a woman like she is worthless or used up because she made the decision to do nude modeling.

I just hope that if they do choose to get married, she proves herself ready to work hard for the royal family and that people eventually get over the fact that she made a decision to pose nude when she was a teenager.
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  #883  
Old 03-18-2013, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Meraude View Post
It's true that Madeleine and Chris won't live in Sweden for now, but who knows what their plans are for the future? Or for that matter, if Carl Philip will remain in Sweden for the rest of his life? As far as I know Madeleine will remain HRH and princess of Sweden even after her marriage, as well as Carl Philip keeping his title when he marries, but I don't see a reason why only Carl Philip's spouse should get the title HRH. Even with a lesser title than HRH and princess of Sweden, Carl Philip's spouse should be able to perform royal duties if it's her wish do do so.

Is the XY gene so much more worth for a royal??
I don't believe that it is, but my attitude is more that Chris should be given an equal title to Madeleine's rather than the idea that Sofia should be denied an equal title to Carl Philp's.

I do think it's a shame that men and women are treated differently in this way.
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  #884  
Old 03-18-2013, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Meraude View Post
Is the XY gene so much more worth for a royal??
Yes, for both royals and commoners. You may not agree or like it but society places a higher value on males in most walks of life.
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  #885  
Old 03-18-2013, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
So do I, and I'll say additionally that I think a lot of this comes from some ingrained misogyny and some very backwards ideas about women and sexuality. It's slut shaming- treating a woman like she is worthless or used up because she made the decision to do nude modeling.

I just hope that if they do choose to get married, she proves herself ready to work hard for the royal family and that people eventually get over the fact that she made a decision to pose nude when she was a teenager.
If she does that, then they should. Princess Lillian lived with Prince Bertil for 30 years and it denied them children because of the morals/attitude of the time (including about models/actresses) and Bertil's committment to the throne. Lillian was given a chance - why not Sofia? I know some people won't see the parallels but this is my opinion.
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  #886  
Old 03-18-2013, 07:12 PM
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I think it is quite unfair & too easy to portray all posters with objections to Sofia Hellqvist as HRH Princess of Sweden as sexists, 'slut-shamers' and whatnot.

As I have said multiple times before (as did many others), the nude pictures are not the main reason why I (and many other posters) have their doubts about Sofia Hellqvist. Though contrary to what is stated above, she had them made at several occassions, not only in her teens.

It is her quest for fame, her apparent lack of any other goals in life before she met the prince & afterwards, and her miraculous transformation to the holy mother Sofia, saving all of Africa -just shortly after meeting the prince- that is the biggest problem to me. In the mean time she misses no opportunity to pose for & talk to the boulevard press to promote herself, quite unprecedented for a royal partner (or even spouse). I can't remember any other royal partner being this eager for attention & being as indiscreet -as are the people around her. It all just seems phoney, very phoney.

That such a woman most likely will become HRH Princess of Sweden actually shows the deficit of the monarchy IMHO. A lot of trust, perks etc are given to royals, I think it is reasonable to expect them to represent the country & their citizens with some sort of dignity. A reality show contestant whose main concern seems to be to get press attention somehow doesn't strike me as the most appropriate person for this. If my own RF will degrade the monarchy into an entertainment show with B-celebrities I will certainly turn republican.

About the 'let's give her a chance'-option. I think that most of us would have been more forgiving if she would have stayed in the background, dedicated herself to a study etc. Mette-Marit did just that & was given a chance and she seems to be doing fine in her role. But instead Sofia seems to be a woman on a mission, which is to get fame, attention etc. And instead of the Big Brother house she found another way to get it. I can't see how this is simular to Princess Lilian's case, who did exactly the opposite.

But I am sure there will be an engagement soon, so I guess the joke will be on us.
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  #887  
Old 03-18-2013, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Yes, for both royals and commoners. You may not agree or like it but society places a higher value on males in most walks of life.
So you are satisfied with and accept that the society places a higher value on males, and that it should be wrong to try to change that opinion? I don't see anything wrong in trying to change old, outdated opinions, and as Sweden and the Swedish people are for equal rights regardless of gender, the Swedish royal family should be an example in how they treat it's members and their spouses regardless of their gender, and not follow old examples "just because it's always been that way".
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  #888  
Old 03-18-2013, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Meraude View Post
So you are satisfied with and accept that the society places a higher value on males, and that it should be wrong to try to change that opinion? I don't see anything wrong in trying to change old, outdated opinions, and as Sweden and the Swedish people are for equal rights regardless of gender, the Swedish royal family should be an example in how they treat it's members and their spouses regardless of their gender, and not follow old examples "just because it's always been that way".
Surely you have to recognise that society values males more highly before you realise that it needs to change. Currently in many societies it hasn't changed. NGalitzine didnt say she was satisfied, she was stating a fact.
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  #889  
Old 03-18-2013, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
Surely you have to recognise that society values males more highly before you realise that it needs to change. Currently in many societies it hasn't changed. NGalitzine didnt say she was satisfied, she was stating a fact.
FYI, "she" is actually a "he", lol.

Nicholas
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  #890  
Old 03-18-2013, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
Surely you have to recognise that society values males more highly before you realise that it needs to change. Currently in many societies it hasn't changed. NGalitzine didnt say she was satisfied, she was stating a fact.
Just because everyone everywhere have not yet recognised a need for change in how differently the society values males and females, does that mean that the situation everywhere has to stay status quo until all societies have come to an agreement? There has to be someone who takes the first step towards a change, and why not Sweden when it comes to equality in what titles the spouses of junior royals should receive?
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  #891  
Old 03-18-2013, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post

Yes, for both royals and commoners. You may not agree or like it but society places a higher value on males in most walks of life.
So true -you hear so often of fact that it is the son who passes on the family name! It is carl Philip who is the only Bernadotte to carry on the name. Victoria because she is going to be queen (Estelle as well) will obviously remain a Bernadotte in name although I'm sure personally she likely considers herself a Westling. Madeline will officially be an O'Neil (at least one would assume she would take her husbands name), rather than legally remain a Bernadotte.

I feel like this will never change! It's so sad!
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  #892  
Old 03-18-2013, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post

So do I, and I'll say additionally that I think a lot of this comes from some ingrained misogyny and some very backwards ideas about women and sexuality. It's slut shaming- treating a woman like she is worthless or used up because she made the decision to do nude modeling.

I just hope that if they do choose to get married, she proves herself ready to work hard for the royal family and that people eventually get over the fact that she made a decision to pose nude when she was a teenager.
It is likely once the royal baby comes that Sweden will forget! Babies change everything :)
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  #893  
Old 03-18-2013, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by USCtrojan View Post
Victoria because she is going to be queen (Estelle as well) will obviously remain a Bernadotte in name although I'm sure personally she likely considers herself a Westling. Madeline will officially be an O'Neil (at least one would assume she would take her husbands name), rather than legally remain a Bernadotte.

I feel like this will never change! It's so sad!
How can you be sure that Victoria considers herself a Westling or that Madeleine will take her husband's name? They might, but they might not. Not all women do these days, and there's no reason why they should.*

Things only change when people make changes, and every woman who keeps her own name is helping make that change. As long as women are told that they should change their surnames on marriage, the majority seem inclined to do so, but change the emphasis and tell them they have the choice and many more will choose to keep their own surnames, and in time people will no longer assume that women are going to abandon their own names and take their husband's.

The reason it was done in the first place was because women essentially lost their own identity on marriage and became part of their husband's legal identity and his property. The law has changed in that regard but the custom is slower to follow.

And of course in some cultures women have never changed their names on marriage.

* ETA Just did a crash course on the situation in Sweden, thanks to Google! It seems the practice of women taking their husband's surnames in Sweden is of recent origin. Before the 19th century it wasn't done but after that it became more common and 1920 legislation made it compulsory, but since 1982 it has been optional and many women apparently keep their own surnames.
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  #894  
Old 03-18-2013, 10:35 PM
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I think it was popular at the height of the womens lib movement for women to retain maiden names but I see less and less of it in the corporate world. Today it seems as soon our female managers get married they send an email out with their new name and email address. I once asked why this was and one told me they saw no reason to complicate their lives and that of their children but that retaining maiden names was almost seen as something their mothers might have done if they had been rabid feminists in the 70s.
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  #895  
Old 03-18-2013, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
I think it was popular at the height of the womens lib movement for women to retain maiden names but I see less and less of it in the corporate world. Today it seems as soon our female managers get married they send an email out with their new name and email address. I once asked why this was and one told me they saw no reason to complicate their lives and that of their children but that retaining maiden names was almost seen as something their mothers might have done if they had been rabid feminists in the 70s.
Yeah, the younger women in their 20s and 30s and even into their 40s, didn't live through the times those of us who became adults in the 1970s remember and their own individual identity is not as important to them as it was to us. It's all history to them, not memory. The times when industrial awards provided a lower rate of pay for women doing the same job as men, when it was a condition of their jobs with certain employers for women to have to give up work when they got married or became pregnant, when married women couldn't get loans without their husband guaranteeing them, when a husband could not be charged with raping his wife because the marriage contract was assumed to give him irrevocable consent to have sex with her whenever he chose and he was even able to use quite a bit of force to assert this right, when there was no such thing as maternity leave much less paid maternity leave, when there was no concept of job sharing and flexible hours to suit women with children, when women's opinions on politics, finance, etc., were not taken seriously, when newsreaders were all men and women were relegated to being weather girls, when women were not equal members of the police or armed forces, etc., etc..

Roslyn,
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  #896  
Old 03-18-2013, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post

Yeah, the younger women in their 20s and 30s and even into their 40s, didn't live through the times those of us who became adults in the 1970s remember and their own individual identity is not as important to them as it was to us. It's all history to them, not memory. The times when industrial awards provided a lower rate of pay for women doing the same job as men, when it was a condition of their jobs with certain employers for women to have to give up work when they got married or became pregnant, when married women couldn't get loans without their husband guaranteeing them, when a husband could not be charged with raping his wife because the marriage contract was assumed to give him irrevocable consent to have sex with her whenever he chose and he was even able to use quite a bit of force to assert this right, when there was no such thing as maternity leave much less paid maternity leave, when there was no concept of job sharing and flexible hours to suit women with children, when women's opinions on politics, finance, etc., were not taken seriously, when newsreaders were all men and women were relegated to being weather girls, when women were not equal members of the police or armed forces, etc., etc..

Roslyn,
rabid feminist in the 70s, and proud of it. And occasionally known to roar a bit.
Hi rabid womanist here too. Woo hoo
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  #897  
Old 03-19-2013, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
I think it is quite unfair & too easy to portray all posters with objections to Sofia Hellqvist as HRH Princess of Sweden as sexists, 'slut-shamers' and whatnot.

As I have said multiple times before (as did many others), the nude pictures are not the main reason why I (and many other posters) have their doubts about Sofia Hellqvist. Though contrary to what is stated above, she had them made at several occassions, not only in her teens.

It is her quest for fame, her apparent lack of any other goals in life before she met the prince & afterwards, and her miraculous transformation to the holy mother Sofia, saving all of Africa -just shortly after meeting the prince- that is the biggest problem to me. In the mean time she misses no opportunity to pose for & talk to the boulevard press to promote herself, quite unprecedented for a royal partner (or even spouse). I can't remember any other royal partner being this eager for attention & being as indiscreet -as are the people around her. It all just seems phoney, very phoney.

That such a woman most likely will become HRH Princess of Sweden actually shows the deficit of the monarchy IMHO. A lot of trust, perks etc are given to royals, I think it is reasonable to expect them to represent the country & their citizens with some sort of dignity. A reality show contestant whose main concern seems to be to get press attention somehow doesn't strike me as the most appropriate person for this. If my own RF will degrade the monarchy into an entertainment show with B-celebrities I will certainly turn republican.

About the 'let's give her a chance'-option. I think that most of us would have been more forgiving if she would have stayed in the background, dedicated herself to a study etc. Mette-Marit did just that & was given a chance and she seems to be doing fine in her role. But instead Sofia seems to be a woman on a mission, which is to get fame, attention etc. And instead of the Big Brother house she found another way to get it. I can't see how this is simular to Princess Lilian's case, who did exactly the opposite.

But I am sure there will be an engagement soon, so I guess the joke will be on us.
Ï agree totally. And I think that the choices one makes during her life, reflect ones values. The choices Sofia has made, posing at these controversial photos when she was sixteen, twenty (with the snake) and even older and searching for fame in many different ways, reflect her values and the values of her family. Sofia has told at an interview that her mother encouraged her to pose for Slitz with the snake. Slitz had called and asked her to those photos, she had said no, but they called again. And her mother wanted her to do it: You only live once, jump into all the fun.
Sofia's past will haunt her even though she has tried to change everything. The press has portfolios of her and the worst tabloids will have a great party after the engagement is published.
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  #898  
Old 03-19-2013, 01:25 AM
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I'm sure Sofia will be thinking about your objections of her past decisions while she is at the alter with Carl Philip.
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  #899  
Old 03-19-2013, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
I'm sure Sofia will be thinking about your objections of her past decisions while she is at the alter with Carl Philip.
I really do very much look forward to watching that particular wedding. I hope it comes to pass.
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  #900  
Old 03-19-2013, 04:12 AM
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I'm sure Sofia will be thinking about your objections of her past decisions while she is at the alter with Carl Philip.
Altar or not, she cannot erase her past...
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