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  #501  
Old 08-21-2012, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meraude View Post
The king's three sisters have the title of "princess" as a courtesy title.
Then could not Carl Philip be subject to the very same courtesy?

The removal of his HRH, the designation 'of Sweden' and his place in line to the throne as well as that of his descendants, should he have any.

* HRH Prince Carl Philip of Sweden, Duke of Värmland

to

* Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland


OR

Could it be at all possible to maintain the title of Duke of Värmland, having had all other royal titles revoked, and being granted the style of 'Excellency' (or Swedish equivilant).


* HRH Prince Carl Philip of Sweden, Duke of Värmland

to

* His Excellency The Duke of Värmland
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  #502  
Old 08-21-2012, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
Then could not Carl Philip be subject to the very same courtesy?

The removal of his HRH, the designation 'of Sweden' and his place in line to the throne as well as that of his descendants, should he have any.

* HRH Prince Carl Philip of Sweden, Duke of Värmland

to

* Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland


OR

Could it be at all possible to maintain the title of Duke of Värmland, having had all other royal titles revoked, and being granted the style of 'Excellency' (or Swedish equivilant).


* HRH Prince Carl Philip of Sweden, Duke of Värmland

to

* His Excellency The Duke of Värmland
There is a difference between the king's sisters and their loss of HRH as they were not in line in the Swedish succession at the time (it's only after 1980 that females are in line in the Swedish order of succession). If Carl Philip was to loose his HRH and place in the succession, the comparison would have to be made with the king's uncles (Sigvard, Carl Johan and their cousin Lennart) who lost their titles and place in the succession and became simply Mr. Bernadotte (until they were given the title of count by the grand-duchess of Luxembourg). I'm not sure that allowing Carl Philip the courtesy title of prince while not being HRH would be a good idea, even if there are no longer any living former princes of Sweden, I don't know how much old hurt feelings about this there is in the extended royal family.

The Swedish version of His Excellency is not in use in Sweden for Swedish citizens (only used for foreign dignitaries). Since 1975 the only person with that title in Swedish is the Marshall of the Realm, the highest official in the Swedish court.

As for having the title of a non-royal duke of Värmland, it could be an alternative for as long as Carl Philip lives, but it would most likely not be given to any future children, and there could possibly be the same problems as with him having the courtesy title of prince, regarding the fact that his father's uncles lost their ducal tiles as well as the HRH.

Perhaps the best alternative would be that Carl Philip was to become Mr. Carl Philip Bernadotte (or take his spouse's surname and become Carl Philip Hellqvist) and hope that the grand-duke of Luxembourg will give him a title.
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  #503  
Old 08-21-2012, 11:48 AM
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If CP were to decide that he does wish to marry Sofia or anyone else won't the Swedish government have to also give their approval to his marriage and likely also have some input regarding titles to be used by him, his wife and any future children.
In the 21st century I cannot see the Grand Duke of Luxembourg or any other monarch giving a title to a foreign citizen even if they are distantly related to the monarch.
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  #504  
Old 08-21-2012, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meraude View Post
There is a difference between the king's sisters and their loss of HRH as they were not in line in the Swedish succession at the time (it's only after 1980 that females are in line in the Swedish order of succession). If Carl Philip was to loose his HRH and place in the succession, the comparison would have to be made with the king's uncles (Sigvard, Carl Johan and their cousin Lennart) who lost their titles and place in the succession and became simply Mr. Bernadotte (until they were given the title of count by the grand-duchess of Luxembourg). I'm not sure that allowing Carl Philip the courtesy title of prince while not being HRH would be a good idea, even if there are no longer any living former princes of Sweden, I don't know how much old hurt feelings about this there is in the extended royal family.

The Swedish version of His Excellency is not in use in Sweden for Swedish citizens (only used for foreign dignitaries). Since 1975 the only person with that title in Swedish is the Marshall of the Realm, the highest official in the Swedish court.

As for having the title of a non-royal duke of Värmland, it could be an alternative for as long as Carl Philip lives, but it would most likely not be given to any future children, and there could possibly be the same problems as with him having the courtesy title of prince, regarding the fact that his father's uncles lost their ducal tiles as well as the HRH.

Perhaps the best alternative would be that Carl Philip was to become Mr. Carl Philip Bernadotte (or take his spouse's surname and become Carl Philip Hellqvist) and hope that the grand-duke of Luxembourg will give him a title.
From an outsiders stand point, I see no reason as to why Carl Philip could not maintain his Ducal title. That it would not be inherited by any offspring is not an issue as ducal titles appointed to Prince's of Sweden are not inherited in any case.

I figured that that way Sofia could also hold some degree soietal distinction (being a Duchess) but not a Princess of Sweden which would perhaps ease the minds of some at least.
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  #505  
Old 08-21-2012, 01:23 PM
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I'm lost .....why on earth would the Grand Duke of Luxembourg give him and, by default, Sofia (as his wife) a title. ?

Somehow I don't think that Sofia would be deemed suitable material by Henri. He was slow enough to give his own daughter-in-law and grandsons a title and royal recognition.
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  #506  
Old 08-21-2012, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meraude View Post
There is a difference between the king's sisters and their loss of HRH as they were not in line in the Swedish succession at the time (it's only after 1980 that females are in line in the Swedish order of succession). If Carl Philip was to loose his HRH and place in the succession, the comparison would have to be made with the king's uncles (Sigvard, Carl Johan and their cousin Lennart) who lost their titles and place in the succession and became simply Mr. Bernadotte (until they were given the title of count by the grand-duchess of Luxembourg). I'm not sure that allowing Carl Philip the courtesy title of prince while not being HRH would be a good idea, even if there are no longer any living former princes of Sweden, I don't know how much old hurt feelings about this there is in the extended royal family.

The Swedish version of His Excellency is not in use in Sweden for Swedish citizens (only used for foreign dignitaries). Since 1975 the only person with that title in Swedish is the Marshall of the Realm, the highest official in the Swedish court.

As for having the title of a non-royal duke of Värmland, it could be an alternative for as long as Carl Philip lives, but it would most likely not be given to any future children, and there could possibly be the same problems as with him having the courtesy title of prince, regarding the fact that his father's uncles lost their ducal tiles as well as the HRH.

Perhaps the best alternative would be that Carl Philip was to become Mr. Carl Philip Bernadotte (or take his spouse's surname and become Carl Philip Hellqvist) and hope that the grand-duke of Luxembourg will give him a title.
Thanks Meraude, great info!

But why would GD Henri or eventually Guillaume give Carl-Philip a title...I know that they are very distantly related but still....?
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  #507  
Old 08-21-2012, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breffney View Post
I'm lost .....why on earth would the Grand Duke of Luxembourg give him and, by default, Sofia (as his wife) a title. ?

Somehow I don't think that Sofia would be deemed suitable material by Henri. He was slow enough to give his own daughter-in-law and grandsons a title and royal recognition.
Its happened in the past when Swedish Prince's lost their Royal titles and styles as the result of an 'unequal' marriage.

Count of Wisborg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #508  
Old 08-21-2012, 03:35 PM
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why would the grand duke of luxemburg give carl philip a title?

I dont known which would be worst for the SRF, the prince marries an unsuitable woman (and with unsuitable i mean i wouldnt want my very commoner brother to marry her) or the king to deny him the permission to marry??
i think the only way would be for the prince to give up the title if he wants to marry Sofia.
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  #509  
Old 08-21-2012, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
From an outsiders stand point, I see no reason as to why Carl Philip could not maintain his Ducal title. That it would not be inherited by any offspring is not an issue as ducal titles appointed to Prince's of Sweden are not inherited in any case.
In Sweden the ducal title have been exclusive to (male) members of the royal family until recently (1980) and thus there are no tradition of non-royal dukes as there are in other countries in Sweden (there are one ducal family in Sweden, D'Otrante, and their title is French), and I think there would be a lot of criticism from various parts of the Swedish society, both political and others, if Carl Philip was to keep his ducal title and no longer being seen as a member of the SRF, especially as his popularity isn't very high.
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  #510  
Old 08-21-2012, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wok_kym View Post
why would the grand duke of luxemburg give carl philip a title?

I dont known which would be worst for the SRF, the prince marries an unsuitable woman (and with unsuitable i mean i wouldnt want my very commoner brother to marry her) or the king to deny him the permission to marry??
i think the only way would be for the prince to give up the title if he wants to marry Sofia.
See link in post above
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  #511  
Old 08-21-2012, 04:07 PM
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if the prince is not super-popular
and his girlfriend isn't really the nation's sweetheart either
and they decide to marry like the 'bernadotte-uncles' and don't ask permission and he'd be stripped of his titles...

wouldn't it be viewed as a 'pity-title' if he got that 'count of visborg' one that is in the luxembourg 'collection'?
The way royals are viewed has dramatically changed since the first time that visborg title was given to a bernadotte (100+ years ago... i mean... russia still had a tsar then, germany still a kaiser)...
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  #512  
Old 08-21-2012, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
wouldn't it be viewed as a 'pity-title' if he got that 'count of visborg' one that is in the luxembourg 'collection'?
The way royals are viewed has dramatically changed since the first time that visborg title was given to a bernadotte (100+ years ago... i mean... russia still had a tsar then, germany still a kaiser)...
Sigvard, Carl Johan and Lennart Bernadotte were created count Bernadotte of Wisborg on July 2, 1951 by grand-duchess Charlotte of Luxembourg, 61 years ago.
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  #513  
Old 08-21-2012, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meraude View Post
Sigvard, Carl Johan and Lennart Bernadotte were created count Bernadotte of Wisborg on July 2, 1951 by grand-duchess Charlotte of Luxembourg, 61 years ago.
:-) yeah, i know, i read the wiki's in the url above, that's why i said 'the first one' :-) but anyway, 61 years ago, the way people viewed royals was also very different than today, so i have a feeling that in the current situation it would still be viewed as a 'pity-title'
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  #514  
Old 08-22-2012, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Its happened in the past when Swedish Prince's lost their Royal titles and styles as the result of an 'unequal' marriage.

Count of Wisborg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Excellent. ! Cheers, An Ard Ri. The precedent was set by Oscar's uncle, Adolphe, and then it carried on.

But, there is something wrong, surely, with the wiki entry for Lennart, Sigvard and Carl Johan. ? All three had the title "Count of Wisborg" bestowed upon them by the Grand Duchess Charlotte on the same day


There can't have been 3 Counts of Wisborg running around the place at the same time. ??
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  #515  
Old 08-22-2012, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breffney View Post
But, there is something wrong, surely, with the wiki entry for Lennart, Sigvard and Carl Johan. ? All three had the title "Count of Wisborg" bestowed upon them by the Grand Duchess Charlotte on the same day

There can't have been 3 Counts of Wisborg running around the place at the same time. ??
Why not, if she had decided to grant them the title count Bernadotte of Wisborg, why not do it on the same day? They were after all brothers and/or cousins.
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  #516  
Old 08-22-2012, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meraude View Post
Why not, if she had decided to grant them the title count Bernadotte of Wisborg, why not do it on the same day? They were after all brothers and/or cousins.
I had assumed that there would be only one Count of Wisborg at any given time just like there was one Count of Barcelona etc.
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  #517  
Old 08-22-2012, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breffney

I had assumed that there would be only one Count of Wisborg at any given time just like there was one Count of Barcelona etc.
I think it varies country to country. In the uk there is only ever one count of X like here is only one duke of Cambridge, one earl of Wessex, one duke of Westminster at any one time and when the person holding that titles dies it goes to their son and so on. However in some countries several people hold the same title at any one time, for example in Luxembourg the main royals hold the title Prince/ Princess of Luxembourg, their children hold the title Prince of Nassau and then all of their children hold the title Count of Nassau, that means all of their children not just one. Likewise in The Netherlands the children of the Queens younger two sons all hold the title Count/ Countess of Orange-Nassau at the same time.
It seems different countries have different rules about how many people hold titles at the same time but I've only noticed it really with the title count/ countess
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  #518  
Old 08-22-2012, 03:22 PM
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I think that CPh can feel quite relaxed today, and think “I just went through some storm, but others are not doing any better than me!”
Certainly worse are the photos of Harry naked in Las Vegas. Also young Marius (15), son of Mette-Marit from Norway upset his family about the publication of numerous private photos on an external website for photos, mainly related to their trips and holidays, news from Expressen. The feeling of lack of security for the royal family is more at stake, than the photos themselves.
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  #519  
Old 08-22-2012, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler
I've followed the discussion here on and off and when I look at the dilemma from my own point of view it really becomes very simple.

If they love each other and feel they are right for each other, by all means marry. I'll applaud them all the way to the altar and back.

However, when asking myself these two questions:

Do I find the constellation Carl Phillip and Sofia to be appropriate official representatives for my country? The answer is no.

Do I think Carl Phillip and Sofia would make an acceptable Regent Couple, should a terrible accident occour? The answer is no.

Things you do throughout your life, also in your early youth have consequences, sorry. That's life.

Monarchies are in their very nature conservative institutions adhering to conservative and traditional values.
Having a princess who has repeatedly, not just once, repeatedly, posed in the buff is a big minus.
Having a princess who has appeared in reality shows is also a big minus.

However, I would be willing to look away from her topless photos and even her antics in reality shows, if she had accomplished something significant. If she was really extraordinary.
Is she a doctor? Has she saved lives? Is she doing cancer research? Has she worked in refugee camps? Has she served in Afghanistan? Something on that level, preferably higher.
No, she has been a less than fully dressed model a few times, - not even a professional, highly paid nude model.
She has appeared in shows that are usually defined with having a cast of uninteresting egomaniacs.
And then she has done.....?

I do not find Sofia to be a good rolemodel. Showing children and youths that you by flaunting your t*ts and appearing in reality shows you can end up becoming a princess, does not conform to the values I believe a monarchy should represent. In that respect I'm pretty conservative.

On top of having thrashed Sofia above, I must add that Carl Phillip's dedication and workload in regards to his status and his country doesn't impress me either. If Carl Phillip was an extraordinary and dedicated man, I might be willing to accept that Sofia is THE woman in his life and give them a chance. But he doesn't impress me.

So to sum up. If they want to, marry. But Carl Phillip should give up his royal status at the same time.
I agree completely, Sofia is hardly a good representative of Sweden abroad IMO, I mean look at when Carla Brunei came to the UK on a state visit, the day before pictures of her posing naked were released! I can see that if they ever went to visit a country overseas the media would reprint the photos of her over and over. I know it sounds mean because people keep saying, don't judge her, but that's life as a royal I'm sorry. Again agree if she'd modelled to put herself through law or medical school it could be spun as a positive but she just wants to be famous and hey look, pose naked, go on reality tv and then you get to be a royal and live a luxury lifestyle at taxpayers expense, hardly appropriate and to me very embarrassing for the royal family and a problem they'd keep having to fight for many more years to come which with the Swedish royals other problems at the moment is one problem too many. Sorry but it's the truth as mean as it sounds.
Agree about CP's dedication to the job, I mean he doesn't have the fullest diary so why not just give it up.
Personally if I was the royal court I'd say that Sofia will only get the title duchess as was proposed for Jonas when he was going to marry Madeleine, I know Sofia might be entitled to HRH and Princess but they could announce the engagement and that she would not be Princess and that might overcome some negativity against any marriage.
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  #520  
Old 08-22-2012, 03:33 PM
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The difference between Carla and Sofia is that Ms. Bruni was only going to be First Lady for a few years. Sofia, if she does marry the Prince, will be a royal until either she dies or the monarchy is abolished.
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