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  #1761  
Old 09-10-2011, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
It is a difficult question. But once you reflect that 200 years ago a former peasant from Pau in Gascony became first soldier, then marechal, then prince, finally Crown Prince and in the end King of Sweden, that 100 years ago so many monarchies were abolished at the end of WWI -then surely there is time and place for another change in the history of monarchies?

The Netherlands with prince Johan Friso have shown that it is absolutely possible for a prince to wed an unsuitable bride with a past, to loose his place in the succession and in the Royal House but to stay a prince of the Royal Family and to go on working in a foreign country without any throwback at his mother and brother, the heir. Why should this not be possible in Sweden?

It makes IMHO a lot of sense to reduce the Royal House to the souverain and the heir plus the heir's eldest child (okay, with their spouses) while the rest of the Royal family is just that: Royal Family. Born with public interest in them because of their family's past and present, with journalists at their back all the time, but in the end
private citizens. Not any sister wants to be the Danii to her Kylie. So to grant the younger children of the souverain and their families the right to be private is something IMHO of granting them human rights.
This is what I and other posters were suggesting, for CP to forgo his position and marry Sofia if he wants.
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  #1762  
Old 09-10-2011, 06:41 AM
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Yesterday I read a German glossy in which he was called "the artistic prince" because he has studied graphic design and he created a cutlery design-hers a link
CPB 9021 cutlery from Gense by Carl Philip Bernadotte
Maybe he is a free spirit and he does whatever he wants to do but hes not as stupid or lazy as some posters describe him...
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  #1763  
Old 09-10-2011, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by American Dane View Post
This is what I and other posters were suggesting, for CP to forgo his position and marry Sofia if he wants.
Exactly - Friso gave up his right to succession, his title as Prince of the Netherlands but of course remains a member of the Royal Family. The difference to CP, who lives off his father's apanage and does a bit of car racing, is that Friso has always worked for a living (he currently lives in the UK working for an uranium enrichment company as CFO). I seriously doubt that CP would be ready to make this sacrifice but wants to have both, the carefree life on taxpayer's expense and the unsuitable bride, hence the start of Sofia's whitewash campaign.
  #1764  
Old 09-10-2011, 08:23 AM
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Exactly - Friso gave up his right to succession, his title as Prince of the Netherlands but of course remains a member of the Royal Family. The difference to CP, who lives off his father's apanage and does a bit of car racing, is that Friso has always worked for a living (he currently lives in the UK working for an uranium enrichment company as CFO). I seriously doubt that CP would be ready to make this sacrifice but wants to have both, the carefree life on taxpayer's expense and the unsuitable bride, hence the start of Sofia's whitewash campaign.
I agree that CP is a lightweight when it comes to workload and yet "inherits" more than some in Sweden and the rest of the world... My point has been, since the beginning, that CP and Madeleine marry who they want but lose rank, title, and money. It's archaic and unfair to me to say "you can't marry [this person]" but there is a reason why the parliament's approval is required. It's not to discriminate but to ensure those who represent the royal family and thus Sweden are the best representatives.
Friso BTW has a bachelors in mechanical engineering and a masters in economics, so he has rightly earned his career and, thankfully for the Dutch, doesn't leech off mommy. Has CP earned a degree yet? It'll be hard to support yourself and a wife (plus children) at a minimum education job... and his dyslexia shouldn't be used as an excuse. His sister overcame it, my brother (who is a physician) overcame it, and others will too.

OK rant finished now
  #1765  
Old 09-10-2011, 12:46 PM
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If he wants to go about this 'his way' and live his own life on his own terms, then put frankly he should be stripped of his title and standing and made to make his own way in life; then we'll find out just how much Sofia loves him.
  #1766  
Old 09-10-2011, 12:51 PM
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I totally agree-if he wants to marry a girl who is generally not accepted by the public he should try to find a way to make his own money! After all everyone of us has to work and pay their own bills as soon as we turn 18 (some even worked before that) and Im sure he will find something to do.
  #1767  
Old 09-10-2011, 12:59 PM
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AFAIK the Swedish Royal Family is nearly as rich as the Dutch, thus Carl Philip should be well able to afford a good lifestyle even if he doesn't marry. I'm not sure if the private estate of the Bernadottes is entailed and in which way - can the king decide who gets what or does the majority goes to the heir of the throne or to the eldest son (who in former times always was the heir as well) - anyway: Carl Gustaf is known to have been unhappy about the disownment of his only son when it came to the succession, so I highly doubt he would disinherit him as well when it comes to his private inheritance. So in the end I'm quite convinced we need not worry about how CP would be able to finance his life even if he decides to marry his current girlfriend.
  #1768  
Old 09-10-2011, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Frstin Taxis View Post
Sofia provocates this, sorry.
I disagree. It's not Sofia who provokates here IMO. Because aside from this widely discussed "Guess what. I'm dating the prince"-comment she's done an absolutely great job so far at the side of the PRIVATE Carl Philip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
With these standards, I honestly do not see the point of monarchy any more.
So what's the difference then? Having a president (inluding wife and children) to represent your country? A president who (including family) is still going to be paid even after his working period is over? As long as he lives? No matter how many other presidents including family will follow him on this job? Just tell me, Moonmaiden (or anyone else of your fellow citizens), how many presidents a of your country are currently still alive? How many of them are still being paid for a job they don't do anymore? Wo are still being guarded by the Secret Service? And then tell me from what money they live? And from what money the Secret Service Agents guarding them are being paid? I tell you. It's tax money - YOUR tax money - for which all the former presidents (including family) have to do absolutely nothing for. They just get it and don't have to give anything in return anymore, just because they once were the big fish in the big pond. Do you thing this is a better system? More fair to the citizens of the country?

It's the same with our system over here in Germany. There are plenty of former presidents whom we have to pay for doing absolutely nothing. Do you think that's a better system? After all, what more do they do (when they actually work) besides waving to people and representing the country? It's a little different over in the US because you have two positions joined into one (the representer and the ruler). But from my point of view it's no big difference if there is a ruling prime minister or Bundeskanzler or whatever on one page and having a representing president or a king on the other page. In my eyes it would even be better having a royal family. Because they get educated their whole life to do the representing job and would be the faces of their country in a way no short time president (incl. family) ever could.

Because honestly, could you tell me who (aka which president and wife) represented Germany since say 1990? Not even I can remember all of them. I have to think for a while to get them all. And their wifes or even kids are a complete mystery for me. The same goes for the representers of Ireland, France, Portugal, Brazil, Argentina, Singapore, Vietnam, South Corea, etc and yes, also the US. But I have absolutely no problems naming the representers of Sweden, Norway, Spain, UK, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark. I'm sure you can and can't name the names of the same countries than I. Now ask again what the point of having a monarchy is nowadays and I'm sure you could give yourself a really good answer.

The point of having a monarchy nowadays is to have a special group of people who represents the country. To have known faces who get combined with the country they represent no matter where they are and what they do. No one can do this job better than a royal family who grow into this job from their day of birth until their death. I would love to still have a royal family in Germany. Not for ruling, but for plain representing. Tax money goes to the representer nontheless no matter who they are. We don't safe anything here (and you don't either). And in my eyes it's way better to give it to someone who really is/are the face/faces of my country than to someone who is just one of many faces who get forgotten as soon as they leave the spotlight but does still get paid from my tax money. But if you like it better the other way around, ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by American Dane View Post
Has CP earned a degree yet?
If you would bother to read his biography you would know that he trained/worked in the swedish navy for a few years right after finishing high school and also for a while a few years later. He left with the rank of a lieutenant.
He also finished a two-year course of graphic design at Forsbergs School in Stockholm. After that he made an internship with National Geographic, won a design competition (under a pseudonym. It wasn't his name or title that got him the award), design a cutlery series and had his own photo exhibition.
Currently he's studying agriculture which I think he does mainly so he'll be able to manage this farm proberty of his which he inherited a while ago.

If I count all this together than in my eyes he's absolutely able to support wife and children. Because he's got trained in 2 jobs and will be trained in 3 right after he finishes his studies at Alnarp. There are a lot of ways and a lot of open doors for him with all this knowledge. So why everyone always calles him lazy and not educated enough is completely beyond me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
I totally agree-if he wants to marry a girl who is generally not accepted by the public he should try to find a way to make his own money!
As far as I know the majority of people who have something against Sofia and don't accept her are people who're not from Sweden. What I hear from inside of Sweden is that there's noo big fuss about Sofia. Most of them don't care enough about her to have something against her. After all she's just a girl who Carl Philip socializes with. She's not the official woman at his side (yet). So why should they bother? I think this is a very good way of handling things. Why crossing bridges if you haven't even reached them yet?
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I'm a firm supporter of fair chance's.
Use your chance, Sofia. You're doing a fine job so far.
  #1769  
Old 09-10-2011, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by KitKat2006 View Post
If you would bother to read his biography you would know that he trained/worked in the swedish navy for a few years right after finishing high school and also for a while a few years later. He left with the rank of a lieutenant.
He also finished a two-year course of graphic design at Forsbergs School in Stockholm. After that he made an internship with National Geographic, won a design competition (under a pseudonym. It wasn't his name or title that got him the award), design a cutlery series and had his own photo exhibition.
Currently he's studying agriculture which I think he does mainly so he'll be able to manage this farm proberty of his which he inherited a while ago.

If I count all this together than in my eyes he's absolutely able to support wife and children. Because he's got trained in 2 jobs and will be trained in 3 right after he finishes his studies at Alnarp. There are a lot of ways and a lot of open doors for him with all this knowledge. So why everyone always calles him lazy and not educated enough is completely beyond me.

Thanks but I did read his biography, so please do not belittle my opinion about his future. He's been studying agriculture for longing than necessary for other students. Why? Why did the court feel the need to remind the press and the public that he's still there and will obtain a diploma SOON? There's a difference between attending schools and graduating from them. If you feel the military experience he had was enough, why didn't he continue?
Surely he would be able to be placed in a position like Prince William where he is serving in the military, saving his countrymen's lives, and coming home to Sofia in an isolated area after 24 hour shifts. That could be a career that he -- unlike William -- can continue for ages. Let's say he found out after a few years the military wasn't for him and he only completed training because all Swedish men at the time had to and he added a few years to that. Fine. Why doesn't he continue with the graphic design which he, I agree, has a talent at and which he earned prizes based on effort alone? He could make a good living out of that and it's possibly something Sofia can get involved in as well. Perfect, right? But he didn't continue that, fine ok he has inherited a farm and wants to run it. Great! This is similar to Prince Joachim who inherited Schackenborg Castle in 1978 (and which he moved to after his first marriage) and graduated with a degree in agrarian economics after two years. Since then he has done several royal engagements a year and holds the occupation of farmer otherwise.
I don't think Sofia provokes any negative comments but her past is a problem for some. All I'm saying is that Carl Philip needs to settle down, decide where he wants to have a career (since even if he was marrying a princess he would still become less and less important as Victoria's children get older), work towards that, and then marry Sofia. As I said before, I have no grudge towards her as I'm not in the position to have one, and as you are listed as being in Germany perhaps you might not be either.
Let me just say that I am completely on your side regarding monarchy vs. presidential system and hope to God that Sweden stays a monarchy. However, lesser things have caused the downfall of monarchies and the Swedish RF needs to constantly review their actions in the eyes of the Swedish population -- their employers.
  #1770  
Old 09-10-2011, 02:50 PM
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Just tell me, Moonmaiden (or anyone else of your fellow citizens), how many presidents a of your country are currently still alive? How many of them are still being paid for a job they don't do anymore? Wo are still being guarded by the Secret Service? And then tell me from what money they live? And from what money the Secret Service Agents guarding them are being paid?
Put frankly, the reason for the lifetime protection is because during their Presidency, they were in full knowledge of our state secrets and top secret information. If they were unguarded and kidnapped, they could be tortured and information extracted. Sounds melodramatic, but it is entirely possible that such things happen. They might not work, but they have a treasure trove of information that is valuable to a demented terrorist or foreign head of state that would LOVE to be able to gain information that would be of immense value to foreign intelligence agencies. Royalty (to my knowledge) is not privy to these things and they are not at all included in these operations. They are ornamental representatives.

Quote:
Most of them don't care enough about her to have something against her. After all she's just a girl who Carl Philip socializes with. She's not the official woman at his side (yet). So why should they bother?
Frankly, it's because of the potential chance of a marriage that has people worked up. I'm sure that just a relationship isn't the only thing that Sofia is hankering for; she wants more than a roll in bed with Carl, I am sure of that much. Do you really think that she sees herself as unworthy of becoming the wife of a prince? She's not official, but what if she does become his wife? Then what? What about his kids? How is he supposed to teach them about morals, hard work, virtue, self respect, and high standards of behavior that is expected if in fact, he marries a woman who embodies none of these things? How is taking off your clothes hard work and how is it something to look up to? No matter how bad things are in society, it's all the more reason for royalties to end up marrying the 'right' woman or man.

If Carl does end up marrying her after up to two years, then Victoria is owed a major apology for Daniel being forced to wait ten years and being subjected to all sorts of nasty innuendo about his motives for marriage to Victoria.
  #1771  
Old 09-10-2011, 03:27 PM
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An American President and Vice-Presidents have secret service protection for life. Not sure about their families. The American Presidents that are still alive are Jimmy Carter, George W. Bush, George Bush Sr. and Bill Clinton. I'm assuming that the secret service are paid by federal taxes since they are a federal agency of the government.

If an act of terrorism had occurred or if someone had been caught trying to comment an act of terrorism in their country or if their country or the world was in grave danger, I would think that the King or Queen would be notified and briefed on the situation. I doubt they would be kept in the dark about it. Some things they might not be told and probably don't want to know about, but certainly not things of this magnitude. This is IMO but of course I have no knowledge of it.

People have been worked up about Prince Carl Phillip and Sofia Hellqvist for over a year.
  #1772  
Old 09-10-2011, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by nascarlucy View Post
An American President and Vice-Presidents have secret service protection for life. Not sure about their families. The American Presidents that are still alive are Jimmy Carter, George W. Bush, George Bush Sr. and Bill Clinton. I'm assuming that the secret service are paid by federal taxes since they are a federal agency of the government.

If an act of terrorism had occurred or if someone had been caught trying to comment an act of terrorism in their country or if their country or the world was in grave danger, I would think that the King or Queen would be notified and briefed on the situation. I doubt they would be kept in the dark about it. Some things they might not be told and probably don't want to know about, but certainly not things of this magnitude. This is IMO but of course I have no knowledge of it.

People have been worked up about Prince Carl Phillip and Sofia Hellqvist for over a year.

Actually Bush 43 is the first president to NOT receive life protection but only for 7 or 16 years after their presidency ends. Forgive me I can't remember the exact length. The law was signed in 1997 stating that the current office holder (Clinton) would be the last to receive life protection for himself and his wife -- who as Secretary of State in her own right actually makes the Secret Service and the Diplomatic Protection Service have constant headaches as to who protects her! Children over the age of 16 don't receive protection after their father's presidency.
However, given the rise of terrorism and other threats, the lifetime protection may be reinstated for Bush 43, Obama, and whoever follows after.
Kings and Queens who have an active role in their country's government (i.e. have weekly meeting with their prime ministers) are I'm sure given regular updates by those prime ministers on what you and I would classify as "state secrets". So a monarch would, God forbid, be just as worthy for a torture to get information.

But this is getting off-topic.
  #1773  
Old 09-10-2011, 04:29 PM
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I am a new member but I have read some of the forums before I joined. What I can not understand is all bad writings about Sofia? We live in the 2000's and there are far worse things than that. Sofia is sweet and Carl-Philip and Sophia love each other so they will definitely get married. They will be a beautiful couple who are brilliant public relations agents for Sweden. Im looking forward to their marriage.
  #1774  
Old 09-10-2011, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Voyce View Post
What I can not understand is all bad writings about Sofia?
All the bad writings come from differing opinions on what Sofia has done in the past.
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  #1775  
Old 09-10-2011, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by American Dane View Post
Thanks but I did read his biography, so please do not belittle my opinion about his future. [...]

[...]All I'm saying is that Carl Philip needs to settle down, decide where he wants to have a career (since even if he was marrying a princess he would still become less and less important as Victoria's children get older), work towards that, and then marry Sofia. As I said before, I have no grudge towards her as I'm not in the position to have one, and as you are listed as being in Germany perhaps you might not be either.
Hey, I didn't mean that as an insult nor did I want to belittle you. I just meant it as information that you could have found the answer to the question about his career and degrees in his official biographie.

And maybe Carl Philip did just what you wanted him to do when he started his studies in Alnarp. Maybe it took just a while longer and an inheritence for him to know what he really wants to do. Maybe the third career is the right career, whereas the military career was just submitting to what everyone expects of a Prince and the second one is nice but to unsure in his eyes. Because he wasn't sure if he could be creative enough to really make a living of it. So when managing the farm is it for him then let him do his studies and let him finish it. If he again starts something new after he finishes this degree then I'm all for yelling at him to get a move on. But right now I don't feel the need to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AristoCat View Post
Put frankly, the reason for the lifetime protection is because during their Presidency, they were in full knowledge of our state secrets and top secret information. If they were unguarded and kidnapped, they could be tortured and information extracted. Sounds melodramatic, but it is entirely possible that such things happen. They might not work, but they have a treasure trove of information that is valuable to a demented terrorist or foreign head of state that would LOVE to be able to gain information that would be of immense value to foreign intelligence agencies. Royalty (to my knowledge) is not privy to these things and they are not at all included in these operations. They are ornamental representatives.[...]

[...She]'s not official, but what if she does become his wife? Then what? What about his kids? How is he supposed to teach them about morals, hard work, virtue, self respect, and high standards of behavior that is expected if in fact, he marries a woman who embodies none of these things? How is taking off your clothes hard work and how is it something to look up to? No matter how bad things are in society, it's all the more reason for royalties to end up marrying the 'right' woman or man.

If Carl does end up marrying her after up to two years, then Victoria is owed a major apology for Daniel being forced to wait ten years and being subjected to all sorts of nasty innuendo about his motives for marriage to Victoria.
1. That's exactly what I meant with your system over in the US. You have two jobs mixed into one. The ruler and the representater. But I'm absolutely sure that if you would have the same system we have over here (one for ruling and one for representing) then you would also paying for the former representators. Maybe not for the Secret Service Agents (because they wouldn't be neccessary then). But you would be paying for the former (non ruling just representating) president just like it's been done in many other countries. And would that really be okay or so much better than having royalty? I don't think so.

Btw, I see the logic as to why the Secret Service Agents have to be there and have to be paid. But I still don't see the logic why the former presidents have a right to get money for absolutely doing nothing. Do you?

2. You really equal posing in bikinis or underwear with having no moral, virtue and self respect? What has one thing to do with the other? Do you really think all people who are showing a little skin are lacking of those attributes? I absolutely disagree here. One can show skin, posing in bikinis/underwear, dancing in nightclubs or whatever and still have morals, respect and be proud of oneself. And contrary to your believe modeling is a very, very hard job. It's not just coming to a set, smiling into the camera for a few minutes and then call it a day. It's way more than that.

3. Victoria is a whole different story than Carl Philip. He isn't the heir. He's just an extra, a substitute, a shadow in the background. Of him isn't expected so much than of her. He is, in a way, just the sidekick of the big star in the big swedish Hollywood/Royalworld-blockbuster. The big hero (in this case Victoria) has to be perfect and needs the perfect partner to finish her mission whereas the sidekick who has just a little supporting role doesn't need exactly the same amount of perfection in his partner. Because he contrary to the hero isn't the one one the big mission but just the one waiting for the phone call to take over when the hero really fails. And maybe (hopefully) he waits in vain because the call never comes. So no need for the perfect partner. And looking at things like that, there's absolutely no need for an apology.
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Use your chance, Sofia. You're doing a fine job so far.
  #1776  
Old 09-10-2011, 05:05 PM
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Hey, I didn't mean that as an insult nor did I want to belittle you. I just meant it as information that you could have found the answer to the question about his career and degrees in his official biographie.

And maybe Carl Philip did just what you wanted him to do when he started his studies in Alnarp. Maybe it took just a while longer and an inheritence for him to know what he really wants to do. Maybe the third career is the right career, whereas the military career was just submitting to what everyone expects of a Prince and the second one is nice but to unsure in his eyes. Because he wasn't sure if he could be creative enough to really make a living of it. So when managing the farm is it for him then let him do his studies and let him finish it. If he again starts something new after he finishes this degree then I'm all for yelling at him to get a move on. But right now I don't feel the need to do so.


Then we're of the same mindset. No worries.


Btw, I see the logic as to why the Secret Service Agents have to be there and have to be paid. But I still don't see the logic why the former presidents have a right to get money for absolutely doing nothing. Do you?

No there's absolutely no reason for us to pay our former presidents and give them other privileges that we do, especially in the economic situation that the US is in. It would be a nice gesture if former presidents' salaries were given to the people of the United States through bailouts but that will never happen!

But back to the topic: I think what irks me (not so much bothers) is that Daniel never had the backing of the Regent couple nor the press nor the court during his 9-year courtship to Victoria but all of a sudden the press answers any question regarding Sofia so as not to insult her or Madeleine, or Emma, etc. That could perhaps be blamed on the ineptitude shown by Nina Eldh and now Bertil Ternert, both of whom weren't around during the early years of Victoria & Daniel...
  #1777  
Old 09-10-2011, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyce
What I can not understand is all bad writings about Sofia? We live in the 2000's and there are far worse things that.
People aren't bashing her. It's just that a lot of posters feel like she's not suitable to be a part of the monarchy. The only 'bad writings' I could think about is when a poster writes about Sofia's past. We can't help it if her past exhibits bad behavior. That's Sofia's problem, not ours.
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  #1778  
Old 09-10-2011, 11:32 PM
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We can't help it if her past exhibits bad behavior. That's Sofia's problem, not ours.
Exactly; she should know better and she should be making her own way in the world rather than using her body. If she didn't know better, she wouldn't be working at rehabilitating her image as much as she is now. At what point do people draw the line? At what point does someone be held accountable for their actions? What on earth makes this woman so suitable? A lot of commoner men wouldn't take her seriously and yet a man of higher social status, a prince, might be seriously considering her as marriage material and she might become a princess?
  #1779  
Old 09-11-2011, 12:27 AM
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There must as well be advantages with Sofia !

" She should have known better " - could be said of many people born and grow up in royal settings - and it could have said on me, and I could say it to my children.

If Sofia gets the right support so she can become a successful woman, regardless of the existence of images considered to show too much skin. Prince Carl-Philip has not been lacked of opportunities to meet many women, so I think it might be appropriate to change course in debate and realize that there must be advantages with Sofia as well and that she is not only an adventuress.
  #1780  
Old 09-11-2011, 01:47 AM
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Why not someone who already has it together, that doesn't have to be worked on? Why not someone who doesn't have that sort of baggage and doesn't at all have such tawdry pictures out there? Is it horrible being married to someone who doesn't have this sort of stuff out there?
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