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  #1741  
Old 09-09-2011, 09:01 AM
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Are we really going down that road?

How can CP feel mistreated, disowned, etc about something that happened when he was a child almost an infant/toddler? Its not like he was treated the same way the Princesses Elizabeth/Mary who were disowned after Henry VIII divorced their mothers called the Ladies Elizabeth/Mary and were forced to either wait on people, wear hand me down clothes, and literally lost money, palaces, places of honor, etc. He knows no difference.

Although to be honest, if this is his mindset (and there is no proof that there is just your opinion) that might show that he cares more about himself than the future of the Swedish monarchy. And let's be real, you can't even compare a gym teacher to someone who has taken nude pictures with a snake or appeared on a reality show! The past and careers of Sofia and Daniel are like Apples and Oranges.
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  #1742  
Old 09-09-2011, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Why on earth should he now still behave as if he was the one the monarchy's future is depending on? The Swedes didn't want his wife to be their future queen and his child to be heir of the crown so why bother who is his wife and who is the mother of his child? After Victoria was allowed to marry her health instructor (and I love these two love birds!) he can now really choose whoever he wants to. And if he loves an ex-stripper and she loves him, why not? Especially when Victoria's child is born and he is not longer the next in line after her.
CP still represents the country and is still is living off taxpayer's money via the King's apanage. If he gives back his title he can basically do what he wants but I doubt he will, its rather that the SRF will try to groom and whitewash Sofia instead. They may get away with it but overall but it wont make the institution more popular.
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  #1743  
Old 09-09-2011, 09:46 AM
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I´ve heard it before

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Sofia is already known well by her visible actions - and the infamous snake picture is rather conservative compared to what else is circulating in the net. While MM's drug past pictures were private ones that were being digged up by "friends" for the media to publish, Sofia went PUBLIC promoting herself in quite a shameless way from day one in order to get attention and make money. That does say something about a person's character, doesnt it.

No matter if they put her into charity events, take her on holiday or will eventually fix her teeth and then claim that she was young and needed the money, the attention seeking testemony will remain there to stay forever.

Rascal - great remark
All royals have not exactly lived a perfect life either - it should be remembered. Drug addiction and snake pictures - what could damage the most, what is most dangerous? Incredibly well done anyway to get out of an addiction to drugs. There must be a lot of support and love behind the fight. I admire anyone who fights against the wind and manage to get on. What I respond to is that in advance of any engagement announcement, judging a person hanging out with Prince Carl Philip as hard. The person who has has made no failure in their lives don´t exists not and, if there are one, he/she have not lived. And the people I look up to most are those who realize that they lived failure and is able to correct their lives and do something that got better. Those who only criticize have not come very far with themselves.

Sweden is a country where the royal family must admit to the Christian Protestant faith. In it we learn the following: "Do not judge others, and you shall not yourself be judged."
  #1744  
Old 09-09-2011, 09:49 AM
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Exactly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
I believe that if any prince has a right to do exactly as he pleases it is Carl Philip of Sweden. The parliament of his home country took away his birthright after he had been born to it - as much as I like CP Victoria and as much as I'M for equal opportunities, Carl Philip still has any right IMHO to feel beraved, mistreated and disowned.

Why on earth should he now still behave as if he was the one the monarchy's future is depending on? The Swedes didn't want his wife to be their future queen and his child to be heir of the crown so why bother who is his wife and who is the mother of his child? After Victoria was allowed to marry her health instructor (and I love these two love birds!) he can now really choose whoever he wants to. And if he loves an ex-stripper and she loves him, why not? Especially when Victoria's child is born and he is not longer the next in line after her.
Very vise and well written!
  #1745  
Old 09-09-2011, 12:02 PM
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Whether people like it or not, something is telling me Sofia is here to stay and she and Carl Philip will eventually marry.
  #1746  
Old 09-09-2011, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
I believe that if any prince has a right to do exactly as he pleases it is Carl Philip of Sweden. The parliament of his home country took away his birthright after he had been born to it - as much as I like CP Victoria and as much as I'M for equal opportunities, Carl Philip still has any right IMHO to feel beraved, mistreated and disowned.

Why on earth should he now still behave as if he was the one the monarchy's future is depending on? The Swedes didn't want his wife to be their future queen and his child to be heir of the crown so why bother who is his wife and who is the mother of his child? After Victoria was allowed to marry her health instructor (and I love these two love birds!) he can now really choose whoever he wants to. And if he loves an ex-stripper and she loves him, why not? Especially when Victoria's child is born and he is not longer the next in line after her.
OK, that's a point of view I can support to 99%. The 1% I don't support is the word "ex-stripper". Because that's definitely not right.

And yes, he definitely did get mistreaded and disowned IMO. That has nothing to do with age. If someone steals a baby what is rightfully his it's just as bad as if this something would be stolen from a grown man. In Norway they didn't steal the birthright from Haakon because he was already old enough to know what would have been taken away from him. But it was (and still is) Haakons birthright to be king just as it was Carl Philips. And it would also be mistreating and disowing if they suddenly make a step backwards in Norway, Belgium, Netherlands, etc. Than it would be mistreating and disowning of Ingrid, Elisabeth and Amalia. Anyway, all this is completely senseless for Sweden because I remember that this special point has never been a problem between Victoria and Carl Philip. Both said it numerous times. But this not being a problem doesn't change a fact.
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I'm a firm supporter of fair chance's.
Use your chance, Sofia. You're doing a fine job so far.
  #1747  
Old 09-09-2011, 02:35 PM
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We have to remember, that Swedish government proposed the female line of succession already when Victoria was 5 months old, on December 1977 to the swedish parliament/Riksdagen.
Proposition 1977/78:71 om kvinnlig tronföljd - Riksdagen
But there had to be an election before the proposition could be accepted. The proposition was accepted and became valid 1st January 1980.
  #1748  
Old 09-09-2011, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karisma View Post
All royals have not exactly lived a perfect life either - it should be remembered. Drug addiction and snake pictures - what could damage the most, what is most dangerous? Incredibly well done anyway to get out of an addiction to drugs. There must be a lot of support and love behind the fight. I admire anyone who fights against the wind and manage to get on. What I respond to is that in advance of any engagement announcement, judging a person hanging out with Prince Carl Philip as hard. The person who has has made no failure in their lives don´t exists not and, if there are one, he/she have not lived. And the people I look up to most are those who realize that they lived failure and is able to correct their lives and do something that got better. Those who only criticize have not come very far with themselves.

Sweden is a country where the royal family must admit to the Christian Protestant faith. In it we learn the following: "Do not judge others, and you shall not yourself be judged."
Maybe you need to schedule a training session with your pastor - as you seem to do quite a bit of judging yourself.

But back to the issue at hand - while a few of the posters here keep "encouraging" others who post a criticism to "give Sofia a break" or "not judge" her, maybe we can talk about a different issue.

All countries have some sort of tax that pays for the president/PM/monarch. What is the expectation for that money? Different people have different opinions. AFAIK only the King receives money and then distributes that among his family. I understand that he pays taxes on the tax money which is used to fund his "salary" but must the people of Sweden then ignore anything beyond that?
Is it acceptable if the King possibly used money from taxpayers to tip dancers/waitresses in the alleged "scandal" that has still not produced any proof?
Is it acceptable for him to buy a new car?
Is it acceptable for Silvia/Victoria/Madeleine to buy a new dress or jewelry?
Is it acceptable for Sofia to live rent-free in state/royal properties?
What is the acceptable amount of "work" required before CP is earning his money?
Do the Swedes consider there to be any value in their investment in the royal family?

The fact that this type of discussion did not happen with any of the previous relationships of the siblings indicates that on some level, Emma, Jonas, and Daniel were all acceptable if not necessarily the best candidates to marry into the royal family or be involved with the royal siblings.

The fact that it is happening with Sofia means that something about her, her behavior, or her past choices are calling into question her acceptability to benefit by association, and ultimately her suitability to be a part of the family.
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  #1749  
Old 09-09-2011, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascal View Post

All countries have some sort of tax that pays for the president/PM/monarch. What is the expectation for that money? Different people have different opinions. AFAIK only the King receives money and then distributes that among his family. I understand that he pays taxes on the tax money which is used to fund his "salary" but must the people of Sweden then ignore anything beyond that?
Is it acceptable if the King possibly used money from taxpayers to tip dancers/waitresses in the alleged "scandal" that has still not produced any proof?
Is it acceptable for him to buy a new car?
Is it acceptable for Silvia/Victoria/Madeleine to buy a new dress or jewelry?
Is it acceptable for Sofia to live rent-free in state/royal properties?
What is the acceptable amount of "work" required before CP is earning his money?
Do the Swedes consider there to be any value in their investment in the royal family?
I'm not quite sure I understand why this is here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascal View Post
The fact that this type of discussion did not happen with any of the previous relationships of the siblings indicates that on some level, Emma, Jonas, and Daniel were all acceptable if not necessarily the best candidates to marry into the royal family or be involved with the royal siblings.

The fact that it is happening with Sofia means that something about her, her behavior, or her past choices are calling into question her acceptability to benefit by association, and ultimately her suitability to be a part of the family.
Weren't both Daniel and Jonas question marks for the royal family at one stage? Not because they posed with a snake or snogged a porn star but for other reasons?

Her past is less than good, she's a questionable person, whose motives will always be questioned - but can't that be said for any commoner who's married a royal? Even in the slightest way, every commoner has something wrong with them big or small and please please please don't take this as me comparing Sofia to other people, it's a generalisation. I doubt this relationship would have lasted this long without a royal 'fuss' if it had not been discussed and partially approved by Silvia and CG.

If the swedes are happy, then I see no problem in Sofia marrying CP.
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  #1750  
Old 09-09-2011, 03:59 PM
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I totally agree, Lumutqueen, and I'll admit I am a bit of a prude (but only for myself --- try my darndest not to judge others.) I'm sure neither the King nor the Queen would dare object to Sofia's past; what with all the King's scandals and the Queen not saying anything about it.
  #1751  
Old 09-09-2011, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascal

All countries have some sort of tax that pays for the president/PM/monarch. What is the expectation for that money? Different people have different opinions. AFAIK only the King receives money and then distributes that among his family. I understand that he pays taxes on the tax money which is used to fund his "salary" but must the people of Sweden then ignore anything beyond that?
Is it acceptable if the King possibly used money from taxpayers to tip dancers/waitresses in the alleged "scandal" that has still not produced any proof?
Is it acceptable for him to buy a new car?
Is it acceptable for Silvia/Victoria/Madeleine to buy a new dress or jewelry?
Is it acceptable for Sofia to live rent-free in state/royal properties?
What is the acceptable amount of "work" required before CP is earning his money?
Do the Swedes consider there to be any value in their investment in the royal family?


I'm not quite sure I understand why this is here?
@Lumutqueen:

This is here because there isn't a thread called "Royals and tax money". If there would be a thread like this this issue wouldn't always pop up in other threads.

@Rascal:

Have you ever seen a bill or why are you so sure they bought these things from tax money? Jewelry and clothes to look good on official duty shouldn't be held against them. A car and tip money could very well be paid from private money. Because the swedish tax system is not their only money scource. They have proberty and money through centurys of inherence that have nothing to do with tax money. And what makes you think that Sofia lives rent free (in a house that is not state or royal proberty as far as I know)? Was there a statement to that somewhere? How do we know that she doesn't pay her share for the house she and CP rented? And even if she doesn't do it how do we know if CP doesn't pay the rent from proberty money or inherence money? Because if this is the case no-one has a right to object. And Sofia paying or not paying her share is just an issue between those two. I'm not saying it is like I wrote. Because I don't know more than you do. I just wrote this to show you (and others) that there's always more than one possibility. Tax money is just one of them. It's not the only one.
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Use your chance, Sofia. You're doing a fine job so far.
  #1752  
Old 09-09-2011, 07:40 PM
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Very good Rascal!

I´m torn between laughing and feel pity for the SRF.
Monarchies are losing more and more their exclusivity. And with the possible marriage of CP and Sofia it´s also a laughingstock.
No wonder that old nobility looks down on the RF.
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  #1753  
Old 09-09-2011, 08:04 PM
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I can just sit here and shake my head at this. Really, what are you all expecting from the royal families? A cinderella-, snowwhite-, sleeping beauty-way of life? Royalty has never been like that. It has always been a a lifestyle of being the biggest fish in a pond full of sharks. And it also always has been about getting the own pond bigger by stealing the water from other ponds. Royalty was always a political war ful of people who were greedy for power, money and proberty. And IMO it's a very good thing that they're losing more and more of their exclusivity and start to live more with their subjects and not above them. That they start to see that they're just human too and not gods in human form.

And why are we always getting into debates of principles in this thread? It's really getting annoying lately.
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Prejudice is opinion without judgement.
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I'm a firm supporter of fair chance's.
Use your chance, Sofia. You're doing a fine job so far.
  #1754  
Old 09-09-2011, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Royalty was always a political war ful of people who were greedy for power, money and proberty.
Well, then Sofia fits in

Quote:
And why are we always getting into debates of principles in this thread? It's really getting annoying lately.
Sofia provocates this, sorry.
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  #1755  
Old 09-09-2011, 10:08 PM
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One day I was talking to a friend who has teenage daughters. He was saying how it was difficult nowadays to tell his daughters that they have to study hard, go to good universities and find interesting and rewarding jobs (itellectually and financially) when young girls half naked in reality shows, singing sexy groups, models and so on make sooooo much money. If he lived in Sweden he would have to worry a bit more. It seems a "glamour" model mieven be able to turn to be a princess!
Anyway, Prince Carl Philip (the SRF and the Swedes) could care less about my opinion on whom he should marry or any matter at all. But I can still think to myself what a disappointment to me he is because of his choices in life.
If he marries this young woman and her image is improved enough, there will even be a thread here about Princess Sofia's fashion choices and the world will go on as always.
And I am sure there are plenty of people thinking right now how wonderful Prince Carl Philip has fallen in love with a beautiful girl, what a beautiful fairy tale is their romance and how bitter and full of prejudice the world can be.... The good thing is his marriage won't affect my life a little bit in spite of the annoyance eventual prospects may have provoked !
  #1756  
Old 09-10-2011, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by KitKat2006 View Post
And IMO it's a very good thing that they're losing more and more of their exclusivity and start to live more with their subjects and not above them. That they start to see that they're just human too and not gods in human form.
In the moment a royal family becomes equal with their subjects but still keeping their huge privileges at the same time its time to call it a day on "monarchy".
  #1757  
Old 09-10-2011, 01:19 AM
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Duke of Marmalade, you are exactly right.

Why bother with the cost of a monarchy, when you can have Kim Kardashian wearing a tiara as your "princess?"

The line between realty TV/Hollywood and certain Royalties becomes more blurred by the minute.

With these standards, I honestly do not see the point of monarchy any more.
  #1758  
Old 09-10-2011, 02:50 AM
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If you are a citizen of the US, not a lot. But if, like me, your head of state is royal, then it's a whole different ballgame.

Right or wrong, I love my Royal Family and I am sure the same can be said for a very large percentage of Swedes for their Royal Family!

The point or pointlessness of any Royal Family will always be the concern of it's people and everyone else is irrelevant.
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  #1759  
Old 09-10-2011, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
CP still represents the country and is still is living off taxpayer's money via the King's apanage. If he gives back his title he can basically do what he wants but I doubt he will, its rather that the SRF will try to groom and whitewash Sofia instead. They may get away with it but overall but it wont make the institution more popular.
This is what I don't understand; Sofia will just create more work for palace staff if she marries CP, but a nice girl with no skeevy background would actually make things a lot easier. Surely there are more than enough princesses out there that he might fall in love with . Second, I wonder how enthusiastic CP would be about Sofia if he had to make his own way in the world. He has the taxpayers to catch him, so it's not like he has to be careful lest he choose wrong and then have a horrible divorce, or end up unable to be taken seriously as a professional because of his choice of wife. American politicians apparently are a lot more careful about who they get involved with than European royalties.
  #1760  
Old 09-10-2011, 04:55 AM
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Duke of Marmalade, you are exactly right.

Why bother with the cost of a monarchy, when you can have Kim Kardashian wearing a tiara as your "princess?"

The line between realty TV/Hollywood and certain Royalties becomes more blurred by the minute.

With these standards, I honestly do not see the point of monarchy any more.
It is a difficult question. But once you reflect that 200 years ago a former peasant from Pau in Gascony became first soldier, then marechal, then prince, finally Crown Prince and in the end King of Sweden, that 100 years ago so many monarchies were abolished at the end of WWI -then surely there is time and place for another change in the history of monarchies?

The Netherlands with prince Johan Friso have shown that it is absolutely possible for a prince to wed an unsuitable bride with a past, to loose his place in the succession and in the Royal House but to stay a prince of the Royal Family and to go on working in a foreign country without any throwback at his mother and brother, the heir. Why should this not be possible in Sweden?

It makes IMHO a lot of sense to reduce the Royal House to the souverain and the heir plus the heir's eldest child (okay, with their spouses) while the rest of the Royal family is just that: Royal Family. Born with public interest in them because of their family's past and present, with journalists at their back all the time, but in the end
private citizens. Not any sister wants to be the Danii to her Kylie. So to grant the younger children of the souverain and their families the right to be private is something IMHO of granting them human rights.
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