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  #81  
Old 05-18-2006, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lil Monkey
I guess QR needs some decent staff and assistants, they just don't seem to tell her the truth , even if QR thinks she knows how things really are, I guess her staff will probably hide a few things away from her..
I don't think this is a reliable excuse,she was not always a royal,and that would help her not to live in a bull nad to have a facke perception of reality....
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  #82  
Old 05-18-2006, 05:58 PM
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I agree, but still I guess good decent staff would at least help a little bit, if u know what I mean
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  #83  
Old 05-18-2006, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by madonna23
BlackBeauty, while I do not know for sure, the poll you mentioned about democracy in Jordan was flawed because another report found that most Jordanians are afraid to tell their real opinions in national polls. I don't know what most Jordanians feel - and they may very well think government is improving - but I don't think the poll can be used as an accurate reflection of Jordanian opinion.
Totally what I was thinking about.

That poll was realised by "A Jordanian state university",which is obviously not a reliable source to reflect the true opinion of the jordanians,everybody knows that in dictatorships,people would be affraid to say their true opionions about their rulers as they "DICTATORS"....

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the true face of democracy and freedom of speech since 1999:

After September 11, 2001, the government amended the Penal Code and regressed 1999 amendments to the Press and Publications Act, which had reduced the historical restrictions on press freedom.</SPAN>[9] Article 150 threatens with prison anyone who publishes "a story, speech or act in any way that offends national unity, stirs people to commit crimes, implants hatred among members of society, instigates sectarianism and racism, insults the dignity and personal freedoms of individuals, promotes fabricated rumors, incites others to riot, sit-in or organize public gatherings that violate the laws of the country." According to the US Department of State, Jordanian journalists allege that the Jordanian government uses informants and censors at printing presses to inform the government if particularly objectionable material is slated for print in the news media. In 2003 the government routinely used detention and prosecution or the threat of prosecution to intimidate journalists into self-censorship.</SPAN>[10]Emergency regulations also abridge freedom of speech by permitting martial law authorities and the secret police to arrest persons suspected of security offenses and to detain them without trial or access to legal counsel for indefinite periods. The emergency regulations authorize the government to censor the press and other publications, ban political parties, and restrict the rights of citizens to assemble for political meetings and peaceful demonstrations. Martial law has frequently been invoked in Jordan, sometimes for decades at a time.</SPAN>
The government limits academic freedom. Student activism is carefully controlled through restrictions on political organizations, demonstrations, and meetings. Jordanian students studying overseas are subject to strict passport controls and students must obtain a good behavior certificate from the secret police in order to qualify for admission under the university quota system. Human rights groups report that these certificates are sometimes withheld from deserving students due to a family member's allegedly problematic record.</SPAN>
According to the Brussels-based International Confederation of Free Trade Unions (ICFTU), Jordan's one million foreign workers have been prohibited from joining trade unions and engaging in collective bargaining or strikes, and domestic and agricultural workers have been excluded from protection under the Labor Code.[11]
The government imposes some limits on freedom of religion and notes individuals' religious affiliation (except for Druze and Baha'is, and other unrecognized religions) on the national identity card and in the "family book" (a national registration record that is issued to the head of every family and that serves as proof of citizenship) of all citizens. Atheists must associate themselves with a recognized religion for official identification purposes.

There are some restrictions on freedom of movement. On August 28, 2001 the government enacted a temporary law limiting the right of assembly, stating that organizers of public assemblies must obtain the written approval of the provincial governor at least 24 hours before the event is to take place; any assembly contrary to the law will be deemed illegal and violators will be subject to prison terms or fines.


Source:Privacy International&Human rights 2004 Report

http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-83799#_ftnref9



So when that poll talks about more freedom,i don't from where they got it!!,you can go and so on to see all the report,what I posted was only a very few part of it.
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  #84  
Old 05-18-2006, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lil Monkey
I agree, but still I guess good decent staff would at least help a little bit, if u know what I mean
I see your point,but what would do the "staff" if the power in place doesn't want to hear anything and to change really things,instead of media propaganda,didn't king Abdallah say?! "Jordan is not yet ready for democracy"-I will look for the article where this was quoted-So mostey I think it's that KA&QR don't want to change things really,and they have all the power to do...
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  #85  
Old 05-18-2006, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackBeauty
I am sure your right... they do say that there r three kinds of lies in this world, white lies, goddamn lies and statistics :p but i do feel that some of the accusations against the Jordanian royal family are very cuuning and unjustified. But then I have only been to Jordan once, as a tourist, so I can not judge. However,while i was in Jordan, spekaing to the local people, I felt there was a lot of hope and optimism for the future :)
Black Beauty you aren't the only one to have spent time in Jordan or spoken to Jordanians - why don't you start talking about the phone tapping, mukhabarat activities etc etc that make Jordan a police state?????

Abdullah spends a lot of time whizzing around with a begging bowl but many Jordanians are getting progresively poorer under Abdullah comparatively.

Jordanians don't have free speech or they would end up in jail!
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  #86  
Old 05-18-2006, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Monalisa
One doesn't have to be smart to understund that there's nothing impressing about what QR is doing,ALL it's a question of a media play ,and YES,the repetitiveness of what she always says,shows that she's only briefed and repeat always the same things...,and what others want to hear,there's no substance of her interviews and works,and time is showing that it is only a lot of fuss for nothing.....
On the one hand it could be considered smart that that Rania (and her husband) simply repeat the same lines or policies over and over again the last several years. In my media studies it has been shown that if you just repeat the a simple message over and over again no matter what the question it is more memorable because people are being bombarded with so much information that they're more likely to remember something that has been said more than once and one idea that is simple.

However with Abdullah and Rania the one message (equality, democracy, education) that has been uttered over and over by the two of them since they ascended to the throne as they visit various nations in the Middle East and in the West, as they appear on shows like Oprah or on NBC or CNN, isn't backed up by any substance. Basically they are talking the talk but not walking the walk.

It's perfectly fine to appear on Oprah and talk about education for young girls so that they can become equal partners as women but where is the planning and educational initiative that makes this happen?

A perfect example of this is on the very same Oprah episode. At the end singer Sarah McLaughlan appeared on the show to sing her song World on Fire. She also had a music video that she spent $15 on. A typical music video costs $150,000 (or something like that), and instead she put that money to various programs and iniatives to make the world a better place and in her video she explained where the money went: X amount to buying books for X number of kids in Afghanistant, X amount to microcredit loans for women in small tribes to start their own business and so forth.

It made me think that if Rania would only refrain from buying one Prada bag or one Valentino gown, how many people that could help in Jordan.
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  #87  
Old 05-19-2006, 01:15 AM
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As they called themselvesthe MODERN royal couple!! (From PPE)
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  #88  
Old 05-19-2006, 05:44 AM
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To be honest, we could all sit here all day quoting this study or that study, or these statistics or those statistics either to support or deny what is being stated.

I would accept the finding of outside well reputed organizations such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty, BBC, before I will accept straw poll findings from a university where they ca be 'got at'.

However, if one looks at things in terms of real progress on the ground, progress that can be measured etc then very little has actually been achieved and I lay this at the feet of the King who has the real power - whatever power Rania has in real terms is negligible in the grand scheme of things. She has been looking like a very unhappy lady in the last few months but she is clever enough to keep herself in the public eye, esp in the West.
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  #89  
Old 05-19-2006, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genevieve
On the one hand it could be considered smart that that Rania (and her husband) simply repeat the same lines or policies over and over again the last several years. In my media studies it has been shown that if you just repeat the a simple message over and over again no matter what the question it is more memorable because people are being bombarded with so much information that they're more likely to remember something that has been said more than once and one idea that is simple.

However with Abdullah and Rania the one message (equality, democracy, education) that has been uttered over and over by the two of them since they ascended to the throne as they visit various nations in the Middle East and in the West, as they appear on shows like Oprah or on NBC or CNN, isn't backed up by any substance. Basically they are talking the talk but not walking the walk.

It's perfectly fine to appear on Oprah and talk about education for young girls so that they can become equal partners as women but where is the planning and educational initiative that makes this happen?

A perfect example of this is on the very same Oprah episode. At the end singer Sarah McLaughlan appeared on the show to sing her song World on Fire. She also had a music video that she spent $15 on. A typical music video costs $150,000 (or something like that), and instead she put that money to various programs and iniatives to make the world a better place and in her video she explained where the money went: X amount to buying books for X number of kids in Afghanistant, X amount to microcredit loans for women in small tribes to start their own business and so forth.

It made me think that if Rania would only refrain from buying one Prada bag or one Valentino gown, how many people that could help in Jordan.
Precisely Genevieve!

Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's Minister of Propaganda is very famous for saying

'If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it'

This constant repetition and attending of 'conferences/forums/councils' where all anyone ever does is talk, the jetting off round theworld to pick up tinny little medals and honours - what does it achieve? They just talk about modernisation and lifting Jordan out of poverty - what a shame they don't put their money where their mouth is. I am quite sure Rania could do with a few less clothes and jewels.
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  #90  
Old 05-19-2006, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamyah
PS. On the matter of honor killing (can't see what's honorable about murder) its practiced by the native Jordanian tribes who happen to be 25% of the country and most loyal to the monarchy, while the rest of the 75% are Palestinians and not the most loyal due to the history they have with King Hussein. To outlaw such murder wil not change anything, what need to take place is cultural revolution and that takes long committment and familiarity. How could some tribal council listen to a woman that doesn't dress according to their standard, but wears latest designer fashion? They are likely to listen to the King and other princesses than the present queen.
I agree, Pakistan currently has had alot of problems with honour killings, attempts in the past to outlaw them have been overturned, although in 2005 Musharraf did sign a bill that made honour killings an act punishable by death. Merely passing a law isn't going to change anything, it's attitudes that need to change and until the misogynistic ideas that have prevailed in some aspects of muslim society have been eradicated honour killings will always continue.
After all, laws are useless unless they are enfoced and in many countries whre honour killings take place, even the police stand by and do nothing. They simply don't care, and often side with the murderers.
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  #91  
Old 05-19-2006, 06:27 AM
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Jordan is such a tightly controlled country that many, many things could be changed AND enforced if the political will was there. The change has to be instigated at the top so that it 'trickles down' and let us not forget that it was Rania herself who made the issue of 'honour killings' one of 'her' issues. It wasn't forced upon her.

They don't want to upset the Bedu tribes because that is where their main support comes from. It is where all Hashemite power rests and always has done - please read history books for confirmation.

If they upset the tribes by instigating laws that go against an ingrained practice, then the throne will be even more uneasy than it already is. That is the real reason why nothing is done.

Unlike Pakistani terrain which is extremely mountainous and difficult to police, Jordan is not.

We haven't actually heard much about so called honour killings for a while now from Rania - I wonder why not? Could it be because nothing has been done and better to keep quiet and hope people forget than to admit failure?
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  #92  
Old 05-19-2006, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lizz70
Precisely Genevieve!

Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's Minister of Propaganda is very famous for saying

'If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it'

This constant repetition and attending of 'conferences/forums/councils' where all anyone ever does is talk, the jetting off round theworld to pick up tinny little medals and honours - what does it achieve? They just talk about modernisation and lifting Jordan out of poverty - what a shame they don't put their money where their mouth is. I am quite sure Rania could do with a few less clothes and jewels.

Quote:
You said they were using the tactics of Goebbels, that's a direct comparison with the Nazis. It's not unreasonale for people to assume you are comparing them to the Nazis.

But then I'd rather not get drawn into a discussion on the Nazis. If you want to coninue down that line though that's your choice.


I see your point Lizz70,and I agree totally,but I don't think it's smart from them to use that tactic,because lies have short life,and if they can divert a few time from what's happening really,the HISTORY won't do....

If somebeody doesn't want to hear about "nazis" connection with this tactic,so it's more famous in psychology by "Methode Couet":"you keep repeating things aven if they are not real,and people and yourself could finish by believing it"
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  #93  
Old 05-19-2006, 08:34 AM
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I just think if Rania and Abdullah would quit visiting United States, Britian, France etc. to promote "cultural awareness" we would be some places. We don't approval of United States to know that Jordan and it's people are great. We don't need to meet with Laura Bush to show that we agree with the American cause. This is just a waste of time and an excuse to shop at Rodeo Drive. If we actually followed the American idea of democracy, freedom of speech etc. we would be recognized as an ally of America than what we are doing right now: just talk. If Rania would stop pleaing to the world to accept Islam as a peaceful country and actually help Muslim women to be something productive I think that would demonstrate the message of Islam better. Appearing on Oprah is not the way to tell people how Jordan is just like the rest of the world. Is suprises me how Rania portrays Jordainian women just like they are American, when the true American message is to celebrate differences and practice tolerance. This country is based on different cultures and each of them portray women differently and they are proud of it. Maybe Rania didn't get the hint. Oh well, next time.
  #94  
Old 05-19-2006, 02:10 PM
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Intersting points indeed. but we have to keep in mind that much of Jordan's international aid comes from USA, the richest country on the planet, that's why the couple are flying now & then there, they want to give a picture of Jordan that is modern, democratic,not extreem. plus Jordan will never say NO to USA in anything, the war in Iraq for example, they did use their bases to fly to Iraq, not because they wanted what's best for Iraqis, simply because they didn't have a choice, Saudis on the other hand said No despite their close relations. And for Rania'spending..It was already discussed more than ones..it's too late, she's already addicted!!
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  #95  
Old 05-19-2006, 02:35 PM
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The goodwill bank account statement she made on Oprah was hilarious! Did anyone else catch it? I don't know how she could say that with a straight face.
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  #96  
Old 05-19-2006, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laraib
I just think if Rania and Abdullah would quit visiting United States, Britian, France etc. to promote "cultural awareness" we would be some places. We don't approval of United States to know that Jordan and it's people are great. We don't need to meet with Laura Bush to show that we agree with the American cause. This is just a waste of time and an excuse to shop at Rodeo Drive. If we actually followed the American idea of democracy, freedom of speech etc. we would be recognized as an ally of America than what we are doing right now: just talk. If Rania would stop pleaing to the world to accept Islam as a peaceful country and actually help Muslim women to be something productive I think that would demonstrate the message of Islam better. Appearing on Oprah is not the way to tell people how Jordan is just like the rest of the world. Is suprises me how Rania portrays Jordainian women just like they are American, when the true American message is to celebrate differences and practice tolerance. This country is based on different cultures and each of them portray women differently and they are proud of it. Maybe Rania didn't get the hint. Oh well, next time.
I find your comments insightful. What makes learning about other cultures so interesting is to see them as they are. It insults my intelligence when someone presents a unique culture like Jordanian culture through the framework of "see how much we are like Americans!" This is what happened during Rania's visit to the Oprah show last week. She showed three "average" women living in the Capital City of Jordan and only showed aspects of their lives that she thought American audiences could relate to, like the working mother who ordered Domino's Pizza for lunch! Another "typical"mother of three was shown in an exercise class trying to lose weight. I am not saying that women in Jordan don't regularly do these things, but I felt that something was missing from that presentation, the things that make Jordan unique.
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  #97  
Old 05-19-2006, 03:24 PM
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I think the king and Queen of jordan are doing their best for the country, of course theres going to be problems around as Jordan is surronded with torublent naighbours and to be honest its the same case in all the arab countries. I dont understand, is Queen Rania the only Jordain royal who spends a lot amount of money on cloths, or do other Jordans royals buy theirs from charity shops didnt Queen Alia was dressed back in the 70s by Italian fashion Icon Valention??!!

I think Queen Rania has character, strong presence and shes down to earth as well, well thats the impression i get from reading her interviews(of course i dont know her persoanlly) im not a big fan of her either!! But i think people are always nagative towards her isnt she working hard for Jordan?? What does she just sit around all day do nothing but shop around the world or somthing?? I think you'd say that she does alot of work for Jordan and of course there always be critics first hand to critises her but thats only natural it only goes with their Job.
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  #98  
Old 05-19-2006, 03:43 PM
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Working hard in what way? She attends lots of functions, which I agree must be tiresome but hardly in the same league as someone who has to work hard day in day out to support their family - without the perks of mega-wealth
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  #99  
Old 05-20-2006, 05:24 AM
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Does all the Royal families and not just Jordan's go out their like the rest of us and earn their money??

I red her interview on Hellomagazine cant rememebr which one but the Queen had like 4 hour sleep and then she had to go around the conuntry to inspect whatevers been going on in the Jordanian cities, can some one actually tell me she does nothing other than attend functions??? Surly she does more than that!
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  #100  
Old 05-20-2006, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lizz70
This constant repetition and attending of 'conferences/forums/councils' where all anyone ever does is talk, the jetting off round theworld to pick up tinny little medals and honours - what does it achieve? They just talk about modernisation and lifting Jordan out of poverty - what a shame they don't put their money where their mouth is. I am quite sure Rania could do with a few less clothes and jewels.
Unlike other monarchies, Jordan is not a monarchy that can rest on the laurels of looking pretty and presenting a glamorous lifestyle.

In Denmark, it may be okay for Mary to show up once a week at some royal engagement in a pretty and expensive suit from Prada and she could still have 100% approval from the Danish people.

But in Jordan that isn't the case. Especially since when the King and Queen came to the throne they vowed change for the Jordanian people. When you have such a significant portion of your country's population lacking in everything from the basics of food and water to other needs such as education or rights such as equality for women, then you need to step up and deliver those things to them. I realize that some things take time, but in the years since they've been on the throne, it seems that no change has been brought about by their rule. And unlike other monarchs, the King does have the power to bring about political change and ensure that policies pass or are blocked.

To my above point about Mary, in the two years since she's been crown princess even she has recycled more of her clothing than Rania has in her years on the throne, which are double or even triple that of Mary's. We have seen her wear her engagement evening gown on at least three occasions now. When was the last expensive designer evening gown that Rania wore more than twice let alone three times?
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