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  #121  
Old 11-29-2004, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sommone

Who knows....I'm reaching here I know, but maybe he honestly thought his son, KA, would do the right thing by allowing Hamza to stay in that position.
But thats my point. Monarchies aren't inherited from brother to brother but from father to son/daugther. It wasn't realistic of the late King Hussein to expect so much from his son Abdullah. How could the son be any different from the father? The truth is, King Abdullah has done exactly the same thing to Hamzah that King Hussein did to Prince Hassan. What goes around, comes around.
The sad thing is, Prince Hamzah has been the unfortunate pawn in all of this.
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  #122  
Old 11-29-2004, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
But thats my point. Monarchies aren't inherited from brother to brother but from father to son/daugther. It wasn't realistic of the late King Hussein to expect so much from his son Abdullah. How could the son be any different from the father? The truth is, King Abdullah has done exactly the same thing to Hamzah that King Hussein did to Prince Hassan. What goes around, comes around.
The sad thing is, Prince Hamzah has been the unfortunate pawn in all of this.
Ok...sorry, I missed the point.
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  #123  
Old 11-29-2004, 03:25 AM
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Let's see it this way: KA made a big decision and he removed P.Hamza.
I don't think he will replace him with one of his brothers, who will remove one day (or before he dies).
So it's more resonable that he will give the title of CP to his eldest son.
and if he wants to make things even more clear and forever (for next generations), he will change the jordanian constitution so that the crown prince will be the eldest son of the king and not a brother.

I know how it maybe hard to PH and QN, but maybe it's better to clarify this once and forever instead of keeping the situation confused between brothers.
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  #124  
Old 11-29-2004, 03:39 AM
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Well I don't think it is wise to not name a cp...just in case something should happen. I do know that something needs to be done about the succession laws so this doesn't keep reoccuring. It is sad that it has happened this many times already in the span of 5 years.
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  #125  
Old 11-29-2004, 03:54 AM
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Yeah I think that the law should either be clarified or followed properly. There's no room for favouritism when it comes to something so serious as succession of a monarchy. Its not a game, after all.
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  #126  
Old 11-29-2004, 04:51 AM
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Talking Surprised but not shocked.

Boy, was I ever surprised to read this piece of news tonight but I was not shocked. Quite honestly, who actually thought Hamzah would suceed Abdullah?

What surprises me is that the King did it so soon especially at this point in time; weeks after the death of Yasser Arafat, Iraq is going up in flames, and the US is taking a turn further to the right.

What also worries me is that Abdullah also removed Faisel from the air force weeks ago. I've just heard about that. Isn't Faisel his full brother? I wonder what behind the scenes machinations are going on right now?

The Players:

Abdullah: Still trying to walk the Mid-East tight rope. A million dollars says that Bush knew before Hamzah did.

Rania: I'm not one of her bashers but this announcement is a coup for her. Her eldest son is the de facto crown prince without the title. Another million says that she is expecting another boy.

Muna: Her long term goals are realized and her children rule in Jordan. What about Faisel? We shall see in the coming weeks.

Queen Noor: I would say that Noor's time in Jordan is done.

Hamzah: Maybe he did want to step back. Who knows? But laying low will actually help him rather than hinder him. Maybe he should think long term rather than short term. Was Princess Noor pregnant? Was this another factor?

The Brothers: I wonder if we will see them or Hussein in the public eye in the coming weeks.

My two cents.

Well, At least the Jordanians are always fun to watch and comment on!
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  #127  
Old 11-29-2004, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamcatchergrl
What also worries me is that Abdullah also removed Faisel from the air force weeks ago. I've just heard about that. Isn't Faisel his full brother? I wonder what behind the scenes machinations are going on right now?
Just want to make something VERY clear. Prince Feisal was NEVER sacked, he was actually promoted. The misconception and misinformation comes solely from the internet. The actual situation is fully explained at the end of this following article.

From the Israeli newspaper Haaretz:

A false quiet in Jordan

By Amir Oren

Next month will mark 10 years since the signing of the peace treaty
between Israel and Jordan. At first glance, the story appears to be
that there is no story: Security relations are good, diplomatic
relations slightly less so, despite the mutual loathing for Yasser
Arafat. The border is quiet, and the threat of Saddam Hussein to the
rear has been removed from the states on both banks of the Jordan
River.

But in fact this quiet is deceptive, because the deep waters in and
around Jordan are liable to sweep the Hashemite regime into an
existential struggle. President Bush's ambitious plan to implant
democracy in an Arab state will, in the end, also reach the palace in
Amman, which today is Washington's loyal ally. According to Bush's
logic, King Abdullah II must also eventually transfer the reins of
government to the Palestinian majority.

The Israeli defense establishment has close ties with its Jordanian
counterpart, but neither is immune from the surprises thought up by
the king. The Israel Defense Forces and the intelligence community
have already gotten used to the fact that senior officials in Amman,
whose positions appeared unassailable, can be removed from office
with no prior warning. Abdullah supplied additional proof of this
last week, with a sudden purge of the top ranks of the air force.

Abdullah's father, King Hussein, died in February 1999, a few weeks
after pushing his brother Hassan - who had been slated to replace him
for decades - down the line of succession and replacing him with
Abdullah, his eldest son. Hussein thus restored the traditional line
of succession, from which he had deviated during Abdullah's childhood
for fear that the kingdom would be left without a leader if assassins
succeeded in killing him.

At the start of his reign, Abdullah said that his father had erred by
allowing Hassan to remain as a competing power center who espoused
different policies. Hassan was stripped of all his authority, but a
guest who joined him for a trip through the streets of Amman last
week discovered that the king's ousted uncle is deluged with waves of
popular sympathy - perhaps a hint of dissatisfaction with Abdullah.

Abdullah's decision to shuffle the deck in Jordan's air force was
discovered by chance, when a senior officer in a foreign army dialed
the direct line of his colleague, the air force commander. This was
not just any commander; it was Prince Feisal, the king's next oldest
brother. And not just any brother, but one who shared the same
mother, Muna, Hussein's first wife.

Feisal, who learned to fly at Hussein's knees, rose through the
officer ranks of the Jordanian air force by his own princely hands.
Abdullah made him deputy commander of the force, and then in 2002 he
made him commander.

To the foreign officer's surprise, his phone call was answered by an
unfamiliar voice. It turned out that Abdullah had suddenly - though
in keeping with the custom of his court - decided to fire Feisal as
air force commander. Feisal is far from retirement age. He is 40,
whereas the army's chief of staff, Khaled Sarayrah, is 60. Feisal's
deputy was also sent packing, and an anonymous colonel, Ahmed
Mohammed Bis, who had previously headed the operations division, was
quietly made head of the air force.

At the start of this week, following a complete media blackout, one
of the Jordanian papers published on its back page congratulations to
the incoming and outgoing air force commanders. A Jordanian official
who volunteered a personal interpretation said with a smile that this
was not an ouster, but a kick upstairs:
"The prince was promoted a
rank, from major general to lieutenant general." That is still one
rank below chief of staff, and two below the rank of field marshal
that Abdullah bestowed on himself.

Feisal is not in line of succession to Abdullah. The crown prince is
their young half-brother, Prince Hamza, Hussein's beloved son by his
last wife, Queen Noor. To appease the Hamza camp, Abdullah named him
crown prince at the expense of his own son, Prince Hassan, who is now
10. As Hassan grows older, the tension between him and Hamza will
also grow - because Hamza can also be ousted, and the story of Hassan
and Abdullah is liable to repeat itself with Hamza and Hassan.

In any such internal conflict, an important factor will be the
support of the kingdom's various power centers, first and foremost
that of the General Intelligence Service, which combines the powers
of a security service with those of a police unit that combats
corruption.

The head of this service, General Saad Kheir, also heads the National
Security Council, and serves as Abdullah's security advisor. Kheir
has recently been embroiled in a dispute with the prime minister,
Faisal al-Fayez, who also holds the defense portfolio, over the
question of how to treat the Muslim Brotherhood, a former ally of the
Hashemite regime whose slide into terrorism has turned it into a
rival and perhaps even a threat.

The forces in this battle are not evenly matched: Fayez, a loyalist
of the king, rose from the ranks of the palace's protocol office and
has no troops. Kheir is acceptable to America's intelligence
community, and even though Abdullah dared to oust and humiliate
Kheir's predecessor as head of General Intelligence, Samih Battikhi,
it is doubtful that the king could permit himself another test of his
power.
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  #128  
Old 11-29-2004, 05:23 AM
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Thank-you for the clarification. The problem with reading things on the internet or from articles quoting other articles (ie: The Telegraph reporting on the article by the Jerusalem Post) is that by changing certain words that mean the same thing but have different connotations, one gets an entire different view of the same event. Getting 'kicked upstairs' is not the same thing as being removed from a post. But still, why hasn't it been reported in the Jordanian press?
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  #129  
Old 11-29-2004, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamcatchergrl
Thank-you for the clarification. The problem with reading things on the internet or from articles quoting other articles (ie: The Telegraph reporting on the article by the Jerusalem Post) is that by changing certain words that mean the same thing but have different connotations, one gets an entire different view of the same event. Getting 'kicked upstairs' is not the same thing as being removed from a post. But still, why hasn't it been reported in the Jordanian press?
I don't know the answer to that. Maybe they see it as an internal military issue or because other officers got sacked this could be interpreted as inappropriate?

I do know however that it does serve some media factions to have this misconception out there, which I find sad :(
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  #130  
Old 11-29-2004, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamcatchergrl
The Players:

Abdullah: Still trying to walk the Mid-East tight rope. A million dollars says that Bush knew before Hamzah did.

Rania: I'm not one of her bashers but this announcement is a coup for her. Her eldest son is the de facto crown prince without the title. Another million says that she is expecting another boy.

Muna: Her long term goals are realized and her children rule in Jordan. What about Faisel? We shall see in the coming weeks.

Queen Noor: I would say that Noor's time in Jordan is done.

Hamzah: Maybe he did want to step back. Who knows? But laying low will actually help him rather than hinder him. Maybe he should think long term rather than short term. Was Princess Noor pregnant? Was this another factor?

The Brothers: I wonder if we will see them or Hussein in the public eye in the coming weeks.

My two cents.

Well, At least the Jordanians are always fun to watch and comment on!
Interesting points. I agree with most of them. Princess Muna certainly is the wife who gained the most out of her marriage to King Hussein. Sure she may have been divorced, but her patience seems to have paid off, with her sons firmly in control of power. This is also a triumph for Rania. There's no doubt in my mind that King Abdullah didnt make this decision entirely on his own. Several of the members have already pointed out that Rania must be expecting a boy, I think this is quite likely. Im sure knowing that they're having another son must've made the decision even easier for the King and Queen.
As for American involvement, I dont believe there was much, if any, of that. I think that people in the Middle East need to stop blaming/suspecting the US for everything. The American government has much important things to deal with right now than to deal with a dynastic squabble. Sure Jordan is strategically important to the US, but lets not blow this importance totally out of proportion.
As for Queen Noor, Im eager to see how she will respond to all this. Even with her son as Crown Prince, her visits to Jordan have been rare. Now she has absolutely no reason to be diplomatic and forgiving. I can't imagine what must be going through her mind right now. She and her kids must be so angry at this humiliation.
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  #131  
Old 11-29-2004, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balqis
I don't know the answer to that. Maybe they see it as an internal military issue or because other officers got sacked this could be interpreted as inappropriate?

I do know however that it does serve some media factions to have this misconception out there, which I find sad :(
I think it was reported, at that time many changes took place in the army and the new officers congratulations covered the pages of the newspapers.
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  #132  
Old 11-29-2004, 05:59 AM
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Muna and late KH were divorsed several years before KH gets married to Noor (and he was married to alia before). I don't know why Muna and KA could be angry about Noor.
what easly I imagine is that any king loves and wants to leave the throne to his son than to his brother.

Can someone plz tell me why late KH did choose his son abdulah and not his eldest son faisal?.
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  #133  
Old 11-29-2004, 06:25 AM
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can i ask why the king of jordan took off hamzah from the privilege of being crown prince of jordan?
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  #134  
Old 11-29-2004, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlota
can i ask why the king of jordan took off hamzah from the privilege of being crown prince of jordan?
To give him freedom .

actually that what have been discussed since yersterday, every one has different opinion, but the reason K Abdullah gave is in his letter to prince hamzah, it was posted at the first few pages of this thread you can check it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abir
Muna and late KH were divorsed several years before KH gets married to Noor (and he was married to alia before). I don't know why Muna and KA could be angry about Noor.
what easly I imagine is that any king loves and wants to leave the throne to his son than to his brother.

Can someone plz tell me why late KH did choose his son abdulah and not his eldest son faisal?.
Abdullah is the eldest not Faisal.
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  #135  
Old 11-29-2004, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abir
Muna and late KH were divorsed several years before KH gets married to Noor (and he was married to alia before). I don't know why Muna and KA could be angry about Noor.
what easly I imagine is that any king loves and wants to leave the throne to his son than to his brother.

Can someone plz tell me why late KH did choose his son abdulah and not his eldest son faisal?.
No one's saying that Princess Muna was angry at Noor. I was only saying that Princess Muna, despite her divorce, has gained the most from her marriage to King Hussein. It is her son who is the King of Jordan. The next line of Jordanian monarchs will be the descendants of King Hussein and Princess Muna.
Oh and I dont think Prince Feisal is the eldest. King Abdullah is.

http://www.hellomagazine.com/royalty.../kingabdullah/
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  #136  
Old 11-29-2004, 07:03 AM
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BBC Article

Jordan crown prince loses title

Jordan's King Abdullah has stripped his half-brother Hamzah of the title of crown prince, overriding the dying wish of their late father King Hussein.


Crown Prince Hamzah, 24, was relieved of his "symbolic" duties in a letter from the monarch on Sunday.


It would "allow you more freedom to work in any tasks I assign to you", the king's letter said.

Analysts say it shows how the king's command has grown since coming to power in 1999 without political experience.

Crown Prince Hamzah was a favourite of King Hussein, who often described him in public as the "delight of my eye".

However, he was seen as too young and inexperienced to be named successor, when the dying king dismissed his brother Hassan as crown prince in favour of his son, Abdullah.

Your holding this symbolic position has restrained your freedom and hindered our entrusting you with certain responsibilities that you are fully qualified to undertake


King Abdullah

The latest move is seen a blow to King Hussein's favourite wife, Hamzah's mother Queen Noor.

Correspondents say her plans for Hamza to succeed Hussein were derailed by her husband's premature death from cancer - but as long as he was crown prince her hopes were not completely extinguished.

King Abdullah's statement said the position of crown prince would be kept vacant - but analysts say he is expected to appoint his own son, Hussein, now aged 10, at some point in the future.

'Soldier of the nation'

King Abdullah's letter, which was read out on Jordanian TV, described Hamzah as a "sincere soldier of this nation".

The king said the title of crown prince was an "honorary position, which does not give authority for its holder nor does it give him any responsibility".

"That had prevented me from assigning you certain responsibilities."

He said this would make it possible for Prince Hamzah "to take up other posts, something which was not possible as crown prince".

A graduate of the UK's Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst, Prince Hamzah is a captain in the Jordanian armed forces.

Absolute monarch

Government sources said that Sunday's shake-up came after consultations between the king and his brothers - although it is not clear if Prince Hamzah was included.

Correspondents say there has never been any visible rivalry between Abdullah and Hamzah.

The king hosted a gala reception for him in May 27, when the royal family officially celebrated the prince's marriage. Despite being the eldest son, career soldier Abdullah - who is half-English and married to a Palestinian wife - was never seen as Hussein's probable successor. But his reputation as a politician has grown since taking over Jordan's absolute monarchy five years ago.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4050231.stm
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  #137  
Old 11-29-2004, 07:12 AM
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Here's an old article from the BBC. The last paragraph is chillingly prophetic!


Saturday, February 6, 1999 Published at 11:58 GMT


World: Middle East

Analysis: Jordan's succession saga

By News Online's Martin Asser


In the weeks leading up to King Hussein's death, a light shone on a tense family rivalry rarely visible to the public gaze.

One of the last acts of the dying king was to replace his brother, Prince Hassan, with his eldest son, Prince Abdullah, as crown prince. Prince Hassan had 34 years as the undisputed heir. Abdullah had briefly been crown prince in his infancy, but in the hair-raising days Jordan lived through in the 1960s the constitution was altered to allow an adult to be next-in-line.

But the reason the hugely-experienced Hassan was dismissed had nothing to do with statecraft and everything to do with blood.


King Hussein wanted to ensure that, in the next generation, Jordan would be ruled by his own children not those of his brother.

In the humiliating letter published by the king dismissing Hassan, he wrote:

"We differ on the matter of the succession to the throne and to whom it would be transferred after you. As for Queen Noor, she was not spared the backbiting and the slander."

Battle of the wives

The king's letter spelled out in some detail Prince Hassan's alleged transgressions during the last six months. But analysts say the royal wives are the key to the real issues behind the succession drama.

In the 1960s, the fact that the infant Abdullah's mother was English was a major factor in Hassan's becoming crown prince.

Could such a boy be head of the Hashemite family, descendants of the Prophet Mohammed, and rule over Arab Jordan?

These misgivings are largely forgotten. Prince Abdullah may still speak better English than Arabic, but he has proved himself in the tough world of the Jordanian army.

And he married a girl of Palestinian origin which has gone down well with Jordanians of Palestinian origin.

But in a country where the heir to an all-powerful throne can be picked for the job, there were other pretenders apart from Prince Abdullah.

The thoroughly Arab Prince Ali, son of Hussein's dead third wife, Alia was one.

The 18-year-old Hamza, son of Queen Noor, King Hussein's fourth wife and consort, was another.

Observers say Queen Noor played the most significant role in the succession saga. Some correspondents said she was instrumental in the dismissal of Prince Hassan, after falling out with his wife, Sarvath.

She was also said to be adamant that Hamza, though he is too young and inexperienced now, would one day to become king.

Hamza sat by the king's side throughout his treatment in the US. And the Jordanian media devoted much space to the young prince over the last year or so.

But Queen Noor was also seen as alien by many Jordanians. She may have Arab blood in her veins, but she grew up in California.

The cultural differences came to the fore after the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin: A peacemaker, but one who had led Israel's army in the conquest of the West Bank.

Many Jordanians were shocked at their queen's tears at Rabin's funeral.

It is widely expected that the new King Abdullah will name Prince Hamza as his heir. Hamza was supposed to have been King Hussein's choice, and he is almost certainly Queen Noor's.

But who can say whether he will not suffer the same fate as his Uncle Hassan, and be dismissed in favour of Abdullah's own son, Prince Hussein, many years from now?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/272678.stm
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  #138  
Old 11-29-2004, 07:18 AM
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluetortuga
I'm sure P. Hassan and P. Sarvath will be chuckling about this over their morning tea. Q. Noor must be quite devasted if not embarrassed by Abdullah's latest move. There is no way she will ever have the prominent role she used to have in Jordan, her last card, Hamzah, has been put out of play. Most of her causes have been taken over by Q. Rania.
I think you are wrong about PHassan's reaction, he had the same thing done to him so would surely be sympathetic towards his nephew, especially considering how close they were when PHamzah's father was still alive. I hope QNoor is embarassed, about how easily her plan to make her own son king has been overturned, she has not had a role nor any influence in Jordan since the death of HM King Hussein. This is what is best for Jordan and the brothers will still remain close there is no hatred between them, I don't think anyone really believed that Hamzah would be king in the end, or that this is some evil plan by the King and Queen against Noor and her children, anyone who thinks knows nothing about the situation.
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  #139  
Old 11-29-2004, 07:58 AM
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I just want to clarify a point I made about Bush knowing before Hamzah. I didn't mean to imply that the US had anything to do with the decision. But I am sure that Abdullah informed the White House in a very timely manner.
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  #140  
Old 11-29-2004, 08:40 AM
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Apparently P. Hamzah has completed his studies at Harvard University. Please read below, he is graduating this semester:

Jordan king's son now seen as heir after crown prince loses title

29 minutes ago
Mideast - AFP




AMMAN (AFP) - The 10-year-old son of King Abdullah II now stands as the legitimate heir to the Jordanian throne, after the monarch stripped his half-brother of the title of crown prince.


AFP/File Photo


The shock decision by the king was in line with the law, as it merely reversed a constitutional amendment made after the death of Abdullah's father King Hussein, a leading lawmaker and a former information minister both told AFP on Monday.



The sudden announcement was made in a letter by the king to Prince Hamzeh bin al-Hussein read on the main evening broadcast of state television Sunday.



In it the king said the decision was to allow his brother to be "more free to take up other posts, something which was not possible as crown prince" -- a title he said was honorary rather than a position of power.



"I realise that this post is limiting your freedom," the king wrote to 24-year-old Prince Hamzeh, son of the late King Hussein and his fourth wife, Queen Noor, an American.



MP Mamduh Abbadi told AFP the decision was in harmony with article 28 of Jordan's constitution which states that the royal title "shall pass from the holder of the throne to his eldest son", in this case the 10-year-old Prince Hussein bin Abdullah.



"The constitution gave the king exceptional powers to give one of his brothers the title of crown prince as well as the powers to scrap this decision," said Abbadi, of the Democratic Alliance independent bloc.



"From the moment the letter was signed, Prince Hussein bin Abdullah becomes crown prince. There is no vacuum," Abbadi said.



Prince Hamzeh was named crown prince on February 7, 1999 in the first decree issued by King Abdullah, following the death of their father, the late King Hussein.



"When King Abdullah was young there was instability in the country so the prime minister at the time recommended that the title of crown prince be given by (the late) King Hussein to his brother Prince Hassan.



"Therefore an amendment to the constitution was done in 1965. Now they have gone back to the original text," Abbadi said.



Abbadi said the timing of the king's decision "has no significance".



Former information minister Saleh Kallab agreed and insisted that no political maneuvering should be read in the king's decision.



"It is normal procedure in line with the terms of the constitution and a return to the original text which says the eldest son of the king should be the heir to the throne," Kallab said.



Kallab linked the timing of the decision to the return Friday to Jordan of Prince Hamzeh from the United States after graduating from university and the king's wishes to see him assume new duties.



"Prince Hamzeh completed his studies at Harvard University. The role of crown prince does not allow him to have any official or even semi-official duties at all. It is a honorific title," Kallab said.



"It seems that the king would like to benefit from of Prince Hamzeh's experience," he added.







Government spokeswoman Asma Khodr meanwhile told reporters that the king's letter "is clear that the title of crown prince does not carry any direct powers. It is an honorific title".

"The decision will give the prince (Hamzeh) more freedom to serve Jordan and the Jordanian people... It falls in line with the constitution and there is no need to comment further," she said.

Prince Hamzeh is a captain in the Jordanian army and graduated from the British military academy Sandhurst like all the members of the royal family.

In his letter to Prince Hamzeh, the Jordanian monarch did not say to whom the title would pass, but stressed the post of crown prince would remain among his priorities.
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