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  #61  
Old 11-28-2004, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madonna23
What I'm saying is if Abdullah does want to have Hussein as Crown Prince why not let Hamzah be the temporary crown prince? Most likely we will see Prince Faisal as the temporary and Hussein as the Crown Prince. I think this shows Abdullah's fear of Q. Noor and P. Hamzah getting too powerful.
I agree. I think Abdullah wants to install his own son as Crown Prince and he now has his chance. He has followed his father's dying wish of putting Hamzah as Crown Prince, but I don't think he ever promised his father that Hamzah will ever be king. To me, his whole explaination of his actions is irrational and incredibly difficult to believe. He could have picked a better excuse.
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  #62  
Old 11-28-2004, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlightrhapsody
He could have picked a better excuse.
That just shows how smart he is
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  #63  
Old 11-28-2004, 08:48 PM
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I heard that hamzah marriage to Noor was a good political move. Maybe Abdullah thought he had to work quickly to make sure that his son could assume the throne.
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  #64  
Old 11-28-2004, 08:57 PM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon
That just shows how smart he is
could you suggest a smarter excuse.
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  #65  
Old 11-28-2004, 09:08 PM
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From the New York Times:
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/mjiyad/abdulart.html

Right now, all sides profess harmony. "There's no byzantine quality here," Abdullah says of his relationship with Hamzeh. "We're very close and we think the same way. My father maybe favored the two of us because I think we're both very much like him."
On the other hand, Abdullah and Rania have a 5-year-old son, Prince Hussein, along with a 3-year-old daughter, Princess Iman. Hussein is a typically Americanized kid : when I last saw him, he was battling his uncle Hamzeh with a "Star Wars" light saber. But one day, he will be old enough to be crown prince, and that's when things could get interesting.

"You know, Satloff wrote a very interesting article about this," the king said, referring to Robert Satloff, the Jordan expert. "I showed Hamzeh this paper. Satloff says that whatever Abdullah does and says will not convince the skeptics that what King Hussein did with Hassan would not happen again with Abdullah and Hamzeh. I told Hamzeh that I wanted him to read this. I've told Hamzeh: 'Look, I've got to make this work, you've got to make this work, we know what happened between Hassan and Hussein and why it didn't work. Let's use them as a model in a way, to make sure that you, Hamzeh, succeed.' "

----------------------------------------------------------------------

And that was just 4 years ago!
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  #66  
Old 11-28-2004, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Safaa Batin
could you suggest a smarter excuse.
You know better your king...just be brave enough to admit his ......
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  #67  
Old 11-28-2004, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon
You know better your king...just be brave enough to admit his ......
admitt what? you are saying that it i not a smart excuse what do u think would be a smart one? I myself could not suggest another excuse, may be my intelligence does not exceed my king's. But as you find it not smart excuse may be that because you have a better Idea which can be a smarter excuse.
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  #68  
Old 11-28-2004, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Safaa Batin
what new reponibilities KA will give to him, and i don't know how CP position can constrain freedom to take any mission? any body have an idea?
and how do all of that related to the difficult circumstances of the region?
I don't understand any thing:( .
There could be a number of ways King Abdullah can utilize Prince Hamzah's talents and interests now that he is not Crown Prince. Outside of the political arena, for which Hamzah is not really suited for anyway IMO, Hamzah can do a lot of good. Let's wait and see what King Abdullah has in mind for him. I am sure he will be given something suitable and substantial.

Personally I feel King Abdullah's decision today is positive, though it doesn't immediately look that way for Hamzah. In a way KA is cleaning up the mess that was left by the succession fiasco back in 1999. It is a bold and brave move on the King's part.

1. He is making sure that his heir is prepared for the job for which he and his wife were not.

2. Queen Rania doesn't suffer the same fate as Queen Noor, a queen but not really a queen. In this regard King Hussein failed his fourth wife immensely.

3. Jumping the ladder by elevating one younger brother over his other older brothers will not happen again. What a mess that created! The succession rules will be followed. A son succeeds his father.

Lastly I want to say King Abdullah has executive power and that decisions are made by him NOT Queen Rania at the end of the day. Laying blame on to her is totally unfair in this situation.
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  #69  
Old 11-28-2004, 09:49 PM
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Do you truly believe Hamzah will have a role in Jordan in the future? I can't believe this. Maybe he'll show up occasionally to put up a good face but that's that. He never was Abdullah's confidante and now that he is not crown prince, it is unlikely he ever will be.

I also don't see how this is a good decision for Jordan. While the business of having one's brother as crown prince seems to be over with, the constant changing of the title of crown prince only creates instability for Jordan. Who's to say that Prince Hussein will one day be stripped of his title in favor of his younger brother (if he has a younger brother)? Once you say someone is crown prince you stick with him unless you find he is unsuitable for the job.

In a sense, it is King Hussein and King Abdullah themselves who made the CP and "honorary position". It is up to the King - not the Crown Prince - to dictate what role the Crown Prince can play. King Abdullah CHOSE to marginalize Hamzah; it didn't happen of its own accord.
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  #70  
Old 11-28-2004, 09:51 PM
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"
Do you think foreign interference had any role in this decision? Hassan is largely suspected to have been removed because he was seen as too anti-Western and the US convinced Hussein to change succession. Could such a thing have happened again?"

Can you explain this? Someone said that Hussein changed his succession rules at the behest of the US. I can see having your succesor being a younger person. That makes sense in a way. But it appears that a lot of these families allow for brothers to take over. And through some politics as well. Well, Hussein had children with several wives. It was all bound to happen. Anyway, I read somewhere else that the US might have been involved also because Hamzah with the perfect training to be a royal leader, was becoming to "Western". This is ironic coming from Abdullah and Rania. well, itīs all speculation. But anyway, also someone said that they wanted until after the US election. I donīt know much about Jordan but the US plays a big role in the Middle East and I would like to pass on some peopleīs thoughts to any Americans who are going to ask me questions.
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  #71  
Old 11-28-2004, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madonna23
Do you truly believe Hamzah will have a role in Jordan in the future?
I do. All the other brothers have a role of some sort. Feisal in the military, Ali personal security. Hamzah and Hashem are the only ones that as yet do not, since both are still studying abroard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madonna23
I can't believe this. Maybe he'll show up occasionally to put up a good face but that's that. He never was Abdullah's confidante and now that he is not crown prince, it is unlikely he ever will be.
You underestimate the brothers in this way. They are all close and loyal to the King. That's one of the things King Hussein did right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madonna23
I also don't see how this is a good decision for Jordan. While the business of having one's brother as crown prince seems to be over with, the constant changing of the title of crown prince only creates instability for Jordan.
The other scenario that existed up until now created uncertainty in Jordan. By clearing the mess up once and for all King Abdullah is minimizing any succession fiasco being repeated in future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madonna23
Who's to say that Prince Hussein will one day be stripped of his title in favor of his younger brother (if he has a younger brother)? Once you say someone is crown prince you stick with him unless you find he is unsuitable for the job.
The brother as CP doesn't work as we have seen. This is the underlying flaw in regards to succession left over by KH. You cannot "stick" with the CP being the King's brother as possible king as the succession rules must be followed ie. from father to son.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madonna23
In a sense, it is King Hussein and King Abdullah themselves who made the CP and "honorary position". It is up to the King - not the Crown Prince - to dictate what role the Crown Prince can play. King Abdullah CHOSE to marginalize Hamzah; it didn't happen of its own accord.
What was Hamzah's contribution to the role so far? Do you know what his true feelings on the subject are? Could he have been ALWAYS aware of KA's ultimate intentions and agreed with them? Let's not paint Hamzah as a victim just as has been done to Prince Hassan here. What if both are aware of a much bigger picture scenario for Jordan that we are not privy to as yet. In this way the succession squabbling is irrelevant. All of the Hashemites close to the throne, like Hamzah, Hassan, Feisal etc. are ALL players and very much in the know. They know what's up and what important role Jordan will play in the coming years :)
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  #72  
Old 11-28-2004, 10:11 PM
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A question. If Hamzah was Husseinīs favorite, then why didnīt he name him as his successor and have the government have a caretaker until he became of age. Isnīt that possible in the Constitution?
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  #73  
Old 11-28-2004, 10:14 PM
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Quote:

A question. If Hamzah was Husseinīs favorite, then why didnīt he name him as his successor and have the government have a caretaker until he became of age. Isnīt that possible in the Constitution?
Hussein wanted Hamzah to complete his education; he felt Hamzah was too young. I think having a caretaker would have only created more problems as that caretaker may have eventually held on to power.
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  #74  
Old 11-28-2004, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balqis
What if both are aware of a much bigger picture scenario for Jordan that we are not privy to as yet. In this way the succession squabbling is irrelevant. All of the Hashemites close to the throne, like Hamzah, Hassan, Feisal etc. are ALL players and very much in the know. They know what's up and what important role Jordan will play in the coming years :)
I agree here , for example Prince Hassan was the first supporter to king Abdullah when became a king . I think all of them understand that they should serve Jordan from any position they have to be in.
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  #75  
Old 11-28-2004, 10:17 PM
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I guess itīs a possibility but hasnīt this been done before in royal history. But I guess Jordan is different. The person may have wanted to indeed. Yeah, I just thought Hamzah wasnīt of age yet. He was older than 18 but not experienced yet enough.
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  #76  
Old 11-28-2004, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennism
A question. If Hamzah was Husseinīs favorite, then why didnīt he name him as his successor and have the government have a caretaker until he became of age. Isnīt that possible in the Constitution?
the successor should be the first son or a brother only. what you said is not possible in the constitution.
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  #77  
Old 11-28-2004, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
You underestimate the brothers in this way. They are all close and loyal to the King. That's one of the things King Hussein did right.
Of course the brothers are loyal to the King but that doesn't mean they will play prominent roles. It is obvious that Abdullah would favor Faisal and allow him to a position in Jordan as they are "full brothers" and Ali I think is head of security only on paper. Being head of security is not exactly what one would call a prominent position.

I am guessing that Abdullah wouldn't want Hamzah and Hashem in the spotlight too much because unlike Ali, their mother is still alive. While some may question the threat Noor and her sons pose to the Hashemite throne, it is obvious that Abdullah (and Rania, for that matter) feel it. Hamzah I think will show up in Petra and the JOrdan Times seven, eight times a year - maybe giving a speech at a university or something like that - but that's it. Maybe in the beginning we will see a lot of Hamzah to give the impression that he does have a role but I think he will eventually be marginalized like his uncle.

Which brings me to Prince Hassan. What goes around comes around, doesn't it? I'm sure King Hussein, had he known this would happen, would have been quite disappointed. Looks like Hassan had the last laugh.
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  #78  
Old 11-28-2004, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Safaa Batin
the successor should be the first son or a brother only. what you said is not possible in the constitution.
Yes, itīs only possible after several possibilities are not available. I mean the Parliament would pick somebody. Not the caretaker idea that I said. Anyway, he should have named Hamzah as his successor. However, that would have caused a lot of trouble having such a young person in charge of such a troubled country in a troubled region. And Hamzah would have been in trouble.
No easy solutions.
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  #79  
Old 11-28-2004, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madonna23
Which brings me to Prince Hassan. What goes around comes around, doesn't it? I'm sure King Hussein, had he known this would happen, would have been quite disappointed. Looks like Hassan had the last laugh.
I'm sure P. Hassan and P. Sarvath will be chuckling about this over their morning tea. Q. Noor must be quite devasted if not embarrassed by Abdullah's latest move. There is no way she will ever have the prominent role she used to have in Jordan, her last card, Hamzah, has been put out of play. Most of her causes have been taken over by Q. Rania.

We may never know the real reason why P. Hamzah has been removed from succession. I do think it was political - KA is cleaning house. He does not want to share power with his half-brother, let alone, allow his hated stepmother any room in the spotlight. He wants to groom his son for kingship, and whether we like it or not, is his right in the eyes of the Constitution. I found Hamzah being CP quite strange, nevertheless he tried his best. I'm sure P. Hamzah will create a niche for himself somewhere.

Does this now mean that Hamzah's website will come down?
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  #80  
Old 11-28-2004, 11:50 PM
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I can't imagine KA having so much dislike for QN, and of course this is only rumor as far as I know, that he would punish his brother by taking his title so that they (the family) can leave Jordan. That would be way too cruel. I thought the brothers were close? Actually, I thought all the children were close.
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