Crown Prince Hamzah relieved of his title: November 28, 2004

[sommone]

I'm just speculating. I don't think Faisal posed a threat to Abdullah either but that Abdullah is just distancing himself. Perhaps he thinks it's better to hand the job to a non-royal? I don't know.

What I'm trying to say is that this Hamzah thing is not just one minor episode. I think it suggests a major shift in thought on the part of Abdullah.

Ok..Just trying to understand what you meant by that. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[madonna23]

I wonder why Abdullah didn't have Hamzah read his own resignition. It would have been slightly more credible had Hamzah said he didn't want to be Crown Prince because it prevented him from serving Jordan than to have Abdullah say it.

 

[Humera]

Not necessarily run the family out of Jordan but strip Noor and her sons right to any prominent role. I'm sure Abdullah doesn't have a visceral hatred of Noor (we can never know) but he certainly feels threatened by her and her sons. I honestly don't believe Noor or Hamzah pose any threat but Abdullah certainly feels so. If he didn't, why would he limit Jordan's media from covering Noor's activities and why would he sideline Hamzah to such an extent that no one thought he had even the slightest chance of becoming king?

I think that the one way in which Queen Noor and her sons are rivals to Abdullah and Rania, is popularity. I can't emphasize that enough. I have studied enough history to know that when it comes to popularity, a monarch can never tolerate a rival..because thats where much of his/her power, legitimacy comes from. That is precisely one of the reasons why King Abdullah doesnt like any other member of the royal family to outshine him or his wife in the media.

 

[madonna23]

I think that the one way in which Queen Noor and her sons are rivals to Abdullah and Rania, is popularity. I can't emphasize that enough. I have studied enough history to know that when it comes to popularity, a monarch can never tolerate a rival..because thats where much of his/her power, legitimacy comes from. That is precisely one of the reasons why King Abdullah doesnt like any other member of the royal family to outshine him or his wife in the media.

You're so right Humera. Isn't Hamzah always mentioned in the press as the son who most resembles his father in looks, bearings, voice, charm, etc? And who can beat the late King Hussein in terms of popularity??

Abdullah and Rania - for all their intelligence, style, etc - aren't loved in Jordan the way Hussein and yes, even Queen Noor - were.

I don't think, however, that this would have posed a serious threat to Abdullah's reign. Just an inconvenience. Perhaps Abdullah thought it to be too much of an inconvenience?

 

[Humera]

Being "intelligent" does not make one nice and compassionate...
[Yes, ka and rania are modern because they dress fashionably..that's all]
[Intelligent: there are many kinds of intelligence...]

Actually, I am NOT surprised of the last move of KA and Rania. This is who they are...I am including both names because i believe she had a say in this...after all, Hussein is her son...

This succession to the throne has been always problematic in this family especially since King Talal Ben Abdellah was stripped of his throne in 1952 under the excuse that he was phychologically UNbalanced.

Well by modern, I meant they both appear to have such progressive, liberal ideas. Every time I've seen them talk in various interviews, they're always talking about democracy and giving their people a voice in everything. But from what I've observed, King Abdullah's regime is all about doing what he wants, the way he wants it.

 

[Moon]

I think that the one way in which Queen Noor and her sons are rivals to Abdullah and Rania, is popularity. I can't emphasize that enough. I have studied enough history to know that when it comes to popularity, a monarch can never tolerate a rival..because thats where much of his/her power, legitimacy comes from. That is precisely one of the reasons why King Abdullah doesnt like any other member of the royal family to outshine him or his wife in the media.

Bravo Humera...POPULARITY...KA & Rania do NOT feel Comfortable about someone else being more popular than them...

PS: popularity and all its implications.....

Well by modern, I meant they both appear to have such progressive, liberal ideas. Every time I've seen them talk in various interviews, they're always talking about democracy and giving their people a voice in everything. But from what I've observed, King Abdullah's regime is all about doing what he wants, the way he wants it.

Yep..talk is cheap...one can say whatever s/he wants...but actions are something else....

 

[Humera]

You're so right Humera. Isn't Hamzah always mentioned in the press as the son who most resembles his father in looks, bearings, voice, charm, etc? And who can beat the late King Hussein in terms of popularity??

Abdullah and Rania - for all their intelligence, style, etc - aren't loved in Jordan the way Hussein and yes, even Queen Noor - were.

I don't think, however, that this would have posed a serious threat to Abdullah's reign. Just an inconvenience. Perhaps Abdullah thought it to be too much of an inconvenience?

And perhaps he's afraid that the "inconvenience" could one day threaten his hold on the throne. It may sound unlikely, but stranger things have happened. King Abdullah isn't anything like any of the modern European monarchs who are little more than mere figureheads. Abdullah, however, has a lot more power. If his power is threatened in any way, he's likely to respond severely. To me it all sounds like something out of the middle ages or even a hundred years ago. But then the Jordanian monarchy, like most other middle eastern regimes, is different.

 

[madonna23]

And perhaps he's afraid that the "inconvenience" could one day threaten his hold on the throne. It may sound unlikely, but stranger things have happened. King Abdullah isn't anything like any of the modern European monarchs who are little more than mere figureheads. Abdullah, however, has a lot more power. If his power is threatened in any way, he's likely to respond severely. To me it all sounds like something out of the middle ages or even a hundred years ago. But then the Jordanian monarchy, like most other middle eastern regimes, is different.

Yes - anything is possible.

How do you all think the decision will affect Jordanians' perception of Abdullah? I think his popularity is going to sink even more. Sure now you're going to have a half-Palestinian crown prince as opposed to a half-American crown prince but considering that Hamzah was more popular than Ali, I don't think ethnicity is going to play a role. I think - I hope - Jordanianians are going to view this for what it seems like it is - a power grab.

 

[Humera]

Yes - anything is possible.

How do you all think the decision will affect Jordanians' perception of Abdullah? I think his popularity is going to sink even more. Sure now you're going to have a half-Palestinian crown prince as opposed to a half-American crown prince but considering that Hamzah was more popular than Ali, I don't think ethnicity is going to play a role. I think - I hope - Jordanianians are going to view this for what it seems like it is - a power grab.

I agree. Both Abdullah and Rania are going to see their popularity decline. I dont see why Abdullah couldnt have waited. These are tense times in the Middle East and indeed, the rest of the world. I feel bad for Hamzah's sake because he was trying so hard to fit into his role. He even got married at such a young age to strengthen his position. But I think the one positive in all of this is that atleast now he wont be left dangling in the air. Atleast now he doesnt have to pretend. Its better that he knows his fate now rather than waiting for decades, like Prince Hassan.

 

[tipper]

Yea he was only 19 when he was named crown prince and he spent 5 years of his life ( I must say the most beautiful 5 years of anyones life),serving and acting as A crown prince,he worked so hard and he probably didn't enjoy his time as any other guy in his age,and then when he turnewd 24 he got married,maybe u never know this wud give him the chance to spend better quality of time with his wife and his future small family,everything in this life happens for a reason...I believe in this so much.

do u really believe it ? so, KA is doing it for the benefit of Hamzah, I just want to say that's a shame, Hamzah was growing up and as he got married to his cousin, maybe he was getting too popular , KA and his wife got scared, of course, he made a promise to his dying father knowing he would 1 day make hs oen son CP, but he had not the guts to tell his father, KH made a great mistake, he believed in his eldest son, he should have listened to US gov officers and to QN, he should have made Hamzah his CP.

Not necessarily run the family out of Jordan but strip Noor and her sons right to any prominent role. I'm sure Abdullah doesn't have a visceral hatred of Noor (we can never know) but he certainly feels threatened by her and her sons. I honestly don't believe Noor or Hamzah pose any threat but Abdullah certainly feels so. If he didn't, why would he limit Jordan's media from covering Noor's activities and why would he sideline Hamzah to such an extent that no one thought he had even the slightest chance of becoming king?

he wants them out of Jordan, he already succedeeded with QN, now it's Hamzah and Hashim's turn, he was not really smart, he understimateds J ppl's love to KH , when P Hasan was destituted , he was by KH, KA can't really believe he can do everything he likes and get away with it, he's not his father....

Someone mentioned previously that FAisal is head of the military in Jordan but I just read on the Telegraph that last month Faisal was removed from his position. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...rd29.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/11/29/ixworld.html)

You know this could be a major political move by Abdullah. We should ignore all that rubbish about this having no effects on Jordan's stability because it does.

Perhaps Ali is next?

What I don't understand is why in the world he is doing this? If Abdullah wants to insure the continuity of the Hashemite throne than he must surround himself with his brothers - not distance himself from them.

no, not Ali, I wonder , can he make his underage son CP ?

 

[sommone]

What I don't understand is why make Hamza cp if it was only temporarily? To me that was stupid. I realize KH wanted hamza appointed as cp, but I thought it was a permanent position? If KH knew it was only "honorary" why would he make such a request if Hamza wasn't going to be allowed to keep the position.? See, I'm really confused now. The more I think I know about this family, the less I know.

See...I thought I read that...I knew I wasn't imagining things. Someone did say KA wanted them out of Jordan.

 

[Moon]

What I don't understand is why make Hamza cp if he it was only temporarily? To me that was stupid. I realize KH wanted hamza appointed as cp, but I thought it was a permanent position? If KH knew it was only "honorary" why would he make such a request if Hamza wasn't going to be allowed to keep the position. See, I'm really confused now.

This is how it works in that country...like someone else mentioned: " a troubled country in a troubled region". Even KH appointed his brother Hassan as CP because he needed him to give him support and to preserve the monarchy only later to throw him out and put his son Abdellah. Since KA is eldest son, by constitution, he is the crown prince but he was young at that time..

And like some else also mentioned, they could just easily follow the Moroccan model and the situation will be much clearer..No need to borrow princes for the role of crown prince and throw them later...

 

[Safaa Batin]

I don't thing the king popularity among Jordanians will be affected alot by that, it does not matter alot for them if hamza, hussain , ali, or faisal will be the next king(by the way i think p Ali is more popular than hamza), that's why the change of succession is not important to them, and we alway think about that as a right just for the royal family , even when P hassan was stripped his position , who was the CP we used to know and like, we respected the king decision and P hassan himself did, at the end as long as it is constitutional and the king is hashimite we have no problem, but what matter is how does P Hamzah now feel, ( and P hassan before) it will be so bad for the prince we like to have this end that is the only thing which offend us .

 

[sommone]

Even KH appointed his brother Hassan as CP because he needed him to give him support and to preserve the monarchy only later to throw him out and put his son Abdellah. Since KA is eldest son, by constitution, he is the crown prince but he was young at that time..


Thanks for explaining, but even still why dismiss Hamza so soon? Prince Hussein is still too young to be cp isn't he?

 

[tipper]

What I don't understand is why make Hamza cp if it was only temporarily? To me that was stupid. I realize KH wanted hamza appointed as cp, but I thought it was a permanent position? If KH knew it was only "honorary" why would he make such a request if Hamza wasn't going to be allowed to keep the position.? See, I'm really confused now. The more I think I know about this family, the less I know.

it was not only honorary, but permanent, KA needed to first be accepted by his ppl, so he needed Hamzah, who every1 knew was KH's fav son and it had been the late King's wish that he made Hamzah his CP- KA's thinking to be very smart, u can c it from his letter to Hamzah, OMG, don't think he's being .... and that weddding, Hamzah's wed, all the time KA was thinking that in a very few months, can't think any1 can make something so mean to his own brother, KH had specific and serious reason to make his own son CP, back in Jan '99, I can only think KA was feeling Ham's position as a menace to himself and to his son, which was not, of course.

 

[sommone]

what about QR, u understimate her role in her husband's life, she did her best to rule out the other Queen , now it's Hamzah's turn, better not to say what I think of this couple, poor Jordan, it's more in trouble than ever.

Actually, I wasn't underestimating anyone... In fact, I'm not really wanting to speculate anything...I was merely repeating what I thought I had read earlier...I just left out QR by mistake.

 

[Safaa Batin]

Even KH appointed his brother Hassan as CP because he needed him to give him support and to preserve the monarchy only later to throw him out and put his son Abdellah. Since KA is eldest son, by constitution, he is the crown prince but he was young at that time..
Thanks for explaining, but even still why dismiss Hamza so soon? Prince Hussein is still too young to be cp isn't he?

yes he still young, KA could have wait untill he became 18.
but may be he realized that the sooner the better, it will be harder to him and to Hamzah after years. or may be he really want to give Hamzah serious duties.

 

[pdas1201]

WOW!!! I have been reading this thread for awhile now, and it seems almost all of us have same thoughts, about Hamzah, KA, QR and QN. I, myself, feel that a grave injustice has been done to Hamzah (that being my idealist side).

But we live in a real world, and like some one on this thread said, the nature of Middle Eastern monarchies is much different from those of their European counterparts. It might be a BIG issue in the European monarchies as they have already had most of their power struggles and, at present, don't hold the kind of power, KA and other Middle Eastern royal families do. They have the money, the position, and the most important--power. KA, in this case, just used his power. What's so disgusting about that? This is happened millions of times before in other countries around the world and will continue to happen, at least, in the Middle East (it being the unstable region) for some time in the future.

I guess what we find distasteful is it happening in the present times. We live in modern world and accord such things like brother-brother feuds as a thing of the past. Well, I guess we were all in for a surprise, this has happened in the present, right before our very eyes.

Anyways, I would like to know what is the Jordanian people's reaction to this news. How are they taking it? Is there a media agency handling from the King's side to "soften" the blow??

 

[Julian]

I don't think KA has any easy choices to make for regent for his young son because he seems untrusting now of all his brothers. Even his full brother Faisal has been taken out of his military position recently as someone here has mentioned. I don't see a good alternative for regent unless it's his uncle Prince Mohammed perhaps. I think KA would never choose P. Ali for this role because Ali is complete Arab and KA's own son Prince Hussein of course is only three-quarter. But there must have been a reason to make this change now that we don't see, considering that Prince Hussein is only ten. The reasoning of K. Hussein was that there should be a capable, adult Crown Prince to ensure the stability of the monarchy. KA has abandoned this reasoning, and for what? He now says this position of Crown Prince is only "honorary" but this is silly, we all know this is not "just" honorary. It also indicates who is next in line to the throne. If you take it away from someone who is not the present monarch's son, then you are also taking away their right to succeed next. Some factors have not been disclosed to us yet, is what I'm thinking.

 

[Dennism]

"I think KA would never choose P. Ali for this role because Ali is complete Arab and KA's own son Prince Hussein of course is only three-quarter."

Why is this? Why wouldn´t he had picked Ali then?

 

[tipper]

WOW!!! I have been reading this thread for awhile now, and it seems almost all of us have same thoughts, about Hamzah, KA, QR and QN. I, myself, feel that a grave injustice has been done to Hamzah (that being my idealist side).

But we live in a real world, and like some one on this thread said, the nature of Middle Eastern monarchies is much different from those of their European counterparts. It might be a BIG issue in the European monarchies as they have already had most of their power struggles and, at present, don't hold the kind of power, KA and other Middle Eastern royal families do. They have the money, the position, and the most important--power. KA, in this case, just used his power. What's so disgusting about that? This is happened millions of times before in other countries around the world and will continue to happen, at least, in the Middle East (it being the unstable region) for some time in the future.

it would be nice if we all wrote to Hamzah's office , he must be so upset, he has been working so hard .... he did not deserve what his brother, can we call him a brother, did to him- I taped a song in English from JTV- that was in Feb '99- the song sang like that- make your father proud of you- is KH so proud of his eldest son, now -? KA told Hamzah, in the famous article from NY Times- if you will not make our uncle's mistakes, there will be no trouble- of course, Hamzah did not make any mistakes, he even, and that was wrong, pushed his own mother aside in order to please his King ....

 

[Safaa Batin]

Anyways, I would like to know what is the Jordanian people's reaction to this news. How are they taking it? Is there a media agency handling from the King's side to "soften" the blow??

I said earlier that jordanians look to it as completely internal issue for the royal family, we know p.hamzah (not very much as he never held power or political duties, actually we know alittle about him) and we don't know p Hussain at all, so we do cannot even compare , both choice are semi equal to us.
I guess the reaction of the rest of jordanians was similar to mine, I was sad and kind of angry for p Hamzah when I heared, but know I get understading that it will not be a big difference, I am now waiting to know what are the coming steps.

 

[pdas1201]

Of course, tipper, I understand he must be upset. But, hopefully in time it will pass. We should look at the bigger picture, if possible, that he will have a FUTURE now. He can do whatever he likes, live wherever he wants, make something out of himself and keep himself and his wife happy, which I thought would have been hard with the constant uncertainty plaguing him (rumors would have reached him as well, that QA is favoring his son over his half brother).

I know now we all feel very bad for Hamzah, after all, he is being deprieved of something, being groomed for practically his whole life. But, at the same time we should be thankful that Hamzah won't have to face the life his uncle did.

 

[Safaa Batin]

I have a question , how will Hamzah do in the coming exams? It is the end of the semester now, I hope his study will not be affected by this.

 

[pdas1201]

I said earlier that jordanians look to it as completely internal issue for the royal family, we know p.hamzah (not very much as he never held power or political duties, actually we know alittle about him) and we don't know p Hussain at all, so we do cannot even compare , both choice are semi equal to us.
I guess the reaction of the rest of jordanians was similar to mine, I was sad and kind of angry for p Hamzah when I heared, but know I get understading that it will not be a big difference, I am now waiting to know what are the coming steps.

Thanks for answering my question, Safaa Batin. It is as I suspected, people right now don't see a major change in power (after all KA is still king) and the issue with Hamzah and Hussein. Well, as you said, not much is known about Hamzah, basically studying in the US and not in Jordan all that much and Hussein is much to young. The people really won't understand what happened until it comes time for Hussein to take the throne and announce his CP.

 

[sommone]

Well good luck Hamza...hope you find much happiness in whatever path you now decide to take...I know he won't see it, but still...

 

[Humera]

To me, it just still seems cruel to make someone crown prince then decide to take it away. Up until today, I had never even heard of the cp position being "honorary" or temporary...

I think the late King Hussein is very much to blame in this. I think in the end, he shouldn't have let his feelings, or the persuasion of his wife Noor, rule him. Sure, Hamzah might have been his "favourite," but he still should've respected the inheritance laws. Im sure King Hussein was a good man but in the end, what makes someone a great leader is to do the best for your country. He couldn't possibly have been unaware of the fact that sooner or later, Hamzah would've been replaced by Prince Hussein, just like Prince Hassan was replaced by Abdullah.
Even in other middle eastern monarchies/regimes, I dont see examples of similar conflicts.

 

[tipper]

Thanks for answering my question, Safaa Batin. It is as I suspected, people right now don't see a major change in power (after all KA is still king) and the issue with Hamzah and Hussein. Well, as you said, not much is known about Hamzah, basically studying in the US and not in Jordan all that much and Hussein is much to young. The people really won't understand what happened until it comes time for Hussein to take the throne and announce his CP.

what ppl in Jordan will understand is that the very last wish of their beloved dying late King was not fulfilled,- KH was too trusty and a bit naive, which is surprising for a great man like him.

 

[tipper]

Of course, tipper, I understand he must be upset. But, hopefully in time it will pass. We should look at the bigger picture, if possible, that he will have a FUTURE now. He can do whatever he likes, live wherever he wants, make something out of himself and keep himself and his wife happy, which I thought would have been hard with the constant uncertainty plaguing him (rumors would have reached him as well, that QA is favoring his son over his half brother).

I know now we all feel very bad for Hamzah, after all, he is being deprieved of something, being groomed for practically his whole life. But, at the same time we should be thankful that Hamzah won't have to face the life his uncle did.

I'm sure Hamzah did want to be King 1 day, he did his best to ensure this, I suspect even his wedding to Noor , his hard work, his getting closer and closer to KA and his loosening his ties to his own mum, which was really so unfair, all this tells me he wanted to be king of Jordan 1 day, maybe 'cos he knew that had always been his father's wish, if u remember QN's bio, she wrote that both she and his father had told Hamzah he had to study at Harrow as 1 day he would have been King of Jordan, so it was important to him to continue his studies there.- 1 question, I read all the bros met before KA read the message to Hamzah on TV, was Hashim present, too, what about Hamzah, I bet only Ali, Feisal and KA were there... !

 

[sommone]

Im sure King Hussein was a good man but in the end, what makes someone a great leader is to do the best for your country. He couldn't possibly have been unaware of the fact that sooner or later, Hamzah would've been replaced by Prince Hussein, just like Prince Hassan was replaced by Abdullah.


Who knows....I'm reaching here I know, but maybe he honestly thought his son, KA, would do the right thing by allowing Hamza to stay in that position.