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  #281  
Old 12-05-2004, 10:48 PM
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I think that King Abdullah should officially name his son Hussein Crown Prince.
There's not point in pretending anymore. And I dont think age should matter.
Morocco's crown prince is not even two years old. Once Moulay Hassan was born, he automatically replaced his uncle as crown prince. That's how straightforward these things should be. Then there would be no nonsense about favourites.
The Sultan of Brunei has 10 kids, one less than the late King Hussein, and from two different wives. But there was no question of who would succeed him, his eldest son.
Why should the Jordanian monarchy be any different from the rest of the monarchies around the world?
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  #282  
Old 12-05-2004, 11:12 PM
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"Why should the Jordanian monarchy be any different from the rest of the monarchies around the world?"

because Men listen too much to women in that family:p
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  #283  
Old 12-06-2004, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon
"Why should the Jordanian monarchy be any different from the rest of the monarchies around the world?"

because Men listen too much to women in that family:p
well that seems to be one explanation.
While women have caused enough problems by meddling in the succession of various thrones throughout history, I just dont expect that sort of thing to happen in the 20th and 21st centuries.
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  #284  
Old 12-06-2004, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinneret5764
Well let's get things started. Time Magazine's take on P. Hamzah's dismissal:

Notebook | Jordan Long Live The King
Palace intrigue in Jordan

By
SCOTT MACLEOD AND HASSAN FATTAH


Sunday, Dec. 05, 2004
Succession plots are brewing inside Jordan's Hashemite dynasty. Reversing a deathbed wish of the late King Hussein, King Abdullah II stunned his subjects last week by summoning Crown Prince Hamzah — his half brother — from a holiday and abruptly sacking him as heir to the throne. "It was a complete surprise," said Mustafa Hamarneh, a prominent Jordanian political analyst.

Hamzah, eldest son of the late King Hussein and American-born Queen Noor, nearly succeeded Hussein in 1999 when the monarch, dying of cancer, dismissed his brother, longtime Crown Prince Hassan. So close was Hamzah to his father that even Abdullah, then a 36-year-old military officer, assumed that his younger half brother, then 18, would get the royal nod. But roughly two weeks before his death, Hussein opted for Abdullah's maturity and experience — but made it clear that he should in turn make Hamzah his crown prince and "critical partner." Abdullah acceded, but never truly accepted Hamzah. Abdullah, for example, never gave Hamzah important tasks — or even a ranking seat at the official dining table.

Though Jordan's royals have publicly united around the latest switch, tongues are still wagging about this new burst of palace infighting. In his dismissal letter, Abdullah said he had decided to "free" the Sandhurst graduate of his "symbolic" post in order to let him undertake unspecified responsibilities and missions. Hamzah's terse reply quoted a Koranic verse, saying simply, "Obey ... those charged with authority."

Abdullah said he would now give the Hashemite vacancy his "sincere attention." Many assume that he always wanted his own bloodline to succeed him. Until he formally announces a new crown prince, 10-year-old Hussein, the eldest of Abdullah's three children with Queen Rania, will be the Kingdom's de facto No. 2.
I've been reading lots of newspapers about Hamzah's dismissal- 1 went on- KA feared of being upstaged- so, Hamzah did not even have a ranking seat at the official dining table, well, I can remember that in the 1st year, til the end of 2000, Hamzah was always sitting by KA- all newspapers state that Hamzah has always have been sidelined by his brother.
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  #285  
Old 12-06-2004, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
Urrrrrr...this makes me soooooooooooooooo mad! I sometimes wish that KH would have just name Hamzah as king, but he was too young. It is just fate that KH had to die so early. But still KA did not honor his father's wishes at all!!!! WHat a shame.
Reina, KH was King when he was only 20, Hamzah was not too young, he was almost 19, I bet he would have been able to be the country leader, KH was too cautious, and too trusty, maybe he did not know his son Abdullah so well, as he had always been abroad til the age of about 23 or 24,or was he older when he got back to Jordan ?, he assumed Abdullah would have never overridden a promise to his father-
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  #286  
Old 12-06-2004, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tipper
Reina, KH was King when he was only 20, Hamzah was not too young, he was almost 19, I bet he would have been able to be the country leader, KH was too cautious, and too trusty, maybe he did not know his son Abdullah so well, as he had always been abroad til the age of about 23 or 24,or was he older when he got back to Jordan ?, he assumed Abdullah would have never overridden a promise to his father-
Tipper was KH 20 when he became king?

I think KH, god rest his soul, should have made p.Hamzah king, everyone was always saying that p.Hamzah is more mature than his age. Maybe KH thought it would cause problems between the brothers. I wonder what he must be thinking, he must be turning in his grave
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  #287  
Old 12-06-2004, 12:50 PM
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Just another analysis concerning P. Hamzah's dismissal:

POLICYWATCH
The Washington Institute for Near East Policy


Number 921 November 29, 2004

ANALYZING KING ABDULLAH'S CHANGE IN THE LINE OF SUCCESSION
By Robert Satloff

Jordan's King Abdullah stripped his younger half brother Hamzeh of the latter's position as crown prince yesterday. He has not yet named a new successor, though by the terms of the Jordanian constitution Abdullah's ten-year-old son Hussein would automatically inherit the throne.

Background
In January 1999, Abdullah was named crown prince by his father, King Hussein, just two weeks before the latter's death from cancer. In so doing, Hussein stripped his full brother, Hassan, from the crown princeship, after more than three decades in the role. After assuming the throne, Abdullah himself named his younger half brother Hamzeh as his own crown prince, evidently fulfilling his father's wish. The now twenty-four-year-old Hamzeh, a former Sandhurst cadet who married a cousin earlier this year, is the son of Queen Noor, Hussein's fourth and last wife. (Ali, another of Hussein's sons and the product of his marriage to the Palestinian Alia Toukan, also got married this year, to the daughter of UN Iraq envoy and former Algerian diplomat Lakhdar Brahimi.)
Changing lines of succession is a time-honored Hashemite tradition. The late Hussein changed crown princes four times (from his brother Muhammad, to his infant son Abdullah, to his second brother Hassan, and again to his then-grown-up son Abdullah) and he changed the overall line on other occasions, too. In this light, the decision to strip Hamzeh of the succession and award it, by default, to Abdullah's own direct descendants was probably inevitable.

Abdullah's Move
Announcement of the king's decision to strip his half brother of the crown princeship came in the form of a letter to "my dear brother" Hamzeh. In that note, Abdullah complimented Hamzeh as a "sincere Jordanian soldier, keen to selflessly perform the call of duty." Abdullah then set the predicate for his decision by noting he "personally" had chosen Hamzeh "from amongst all my brothers, including those who are older than you." Abdullah then offered a novel if somewhat contradictory explanation for changing his mind now. On the one hand, Abdullah wrote, the crown princeship is only an "honorary" position without "any authority or any responsibility;" he even cited the late Hussein as the source of authority for the idea of "the honorary concept of the position of Crown Prince." (This point is odd; while the position has no authority it certainly carries responsibility, i.e., the right to inherit the throne.) On the other hand, wrote Abdullah, this honorary role has been too constricting: "Holding this symbolic position has restrained your freedom and hindered our trusting you with certain responsibilities that you are fully qualified to undertake." As a result, Abdullah concluded, "I have decided to free you from the constraints of the position of Crown Prince in order to give you the freedom to work and undertake any mission or responsibility I entrust you with, along side with all our brothers, the sons of Al Hussein, and other members of the Hashemite Family."
Abdullah did not name a new successor, but that is not a legal requirement. As he wrote to Hamzeh, "As for the position of Crown Prince, I will continue, guided by the Constitution and the good of our beloved Jordan and our noble Hashemite message, to give it my sincere attention." Abdullah was most likely referring to chapter four, article 28, of the Jordanian constitution, which stipulates that "the royal title shall pass from the holder of the throne to his eldest son." The constitution offers the king the option of choosing one of his brothers as "heir apparent," as both the incumbent and his father had done, but it does not actually require any declaration of succession. In the absence of such a declaration, succession automatically passes to the eldest son.

Why Change Succession?
The simplest explanation for the timing of Abdullah's move is probably the most accurate, i.e., he changed the line of succession because he could. Nearly five years after the death of his father, Abdullah no longer operates under his father's shadow and clearly considers himself to be in full control of the Hashemite kingdom. He evidently calculated that he had attained a status in the country such that his decision would be accepted without dissent by courtiers, family members, and common people alike.
Indeed, there have already been some murmurings in the media suggesting that replacing Hamzeh, the son of the American-born Queen Noor, with Hussein, the son of the Palestinian-born Queen Rania, might even enhance Abdullah's popularity. Such rumors should not be exaggerated, however, since Hamzeh himself was widely considered a pious, faithful, and devoted young man, certainly more popular than his mother. There is no reason to believe Hamzeh will actively protest his diminished status, though Hashemites -- descendants of the Prophet Muhammad -- are famous for their long memories. Over time, oppositionists and sidelined stalwarts of the late Hussein may try to enlist Hamzeh in their cause, but Hashemites tend to hang together, perhaps because there are so few of them.
In the event Abdullah dies without further action on succession, his son Hussein will be named king but would not actually rule until 2012, when he reaches the age of eighteen. In the interim, Jordan would be governed either by a single regent or a regency council. It is the king's prerogative to name the regent or the regency council as a precaution in the event of his death; if none is named, then the responsibility falls to the Jordanian cabinet. At the moment, it is not known whether Abdullah has privately taken steps to prepare for this constitutional void; no public announcement has been made.
One intriguing passage in Abdullah's letter suggests a possible alternative route. His reference to having named Hamzeh as crown prince over his older brothers hints that the king may yet have a special role to play for his full brother, Faysal. Indeed, only about a month ago, Abdullah relieved Faysal of his duties as commander of the Jordanian air force and assigned him to Jordanian army headquarters. While some observers suggested this move was in preparation for an eventual elevation of Faysal to serve as chief of the general staff, there is a possibility that Abdullah could name Faysal as crown prince, just as his father named his uncle Hassan crown prince. While the assumption may be that the succession would eventually revert to young Hussein, there is no certainty unless formal decisions to that effect are made. One way to elevate Faysal without risking a diversion in the line of Abdullah would be to issue a royal decree naming Faysal as the regent (or at least a member of the regency council) in the event Abdullah dies before Hussein reaches his majority.

Conclusion
If there had been any doubt, Abdullah's succession move underscores his tight control on the Jordanian political system. This had been manifested earlier this year by the appointment of his able chief of royal protocol as prime minister. At the same time, the succession decision confirms the political coming-of-age of the forty-two-year-old king. It follows on other bold moves he has made, including his reversal of his father's 1990 Gulf War precedent by lending political and material support to the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003 and by spearheading a domestic "Jordan First" campaign that was perceived by many Palestinian-Jordanians as an affront to their delicate standing in local society.
More bold moves may be in the offing. One is Abdullah's effort to project a positive image of Muslim religious tolerance by issuing what he termed his "Amman Message" during Ramadan. Another -- and much riskier -- possibility to look for is Abdullah asserting himself as the moderate spokesman on behalf of Iraqi Sunnis.

Robert Satloff, executive director of The Washington Institute, is the author of From Abdullah to Hussein: Jordan in Transition (1994) and From Hussein to Abdullah: Jordan in Transition (1999).

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/w...ch2004/921.htm
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  #288  
Old 12-06-2004, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cut1me
Tipper was KH 20 when he became king?

I think KH, god rest his soul, should have made p.Hamzah king, everyone was always saying that p.Hamzah is more mature than his age. Maybe KH thought it would cause problems between the brothers. I wonder what he must be thinking, he must be turning in his grave
sure, cutme1, he must be turning in his grave.... will he ever rest in peace ? Well, asking KA to name Hamzah his CP could already cause problems - I bet there was so much resentment at the time....
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  #289  
Old 12-07-2004, 07:02 PM
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King Abdullah commented on the dismissal of Prince Hamzah as Crown Prince on CNN today. I just finished watching the short interview.
He basically repeated the fact that he thinks Prince Hamzah will now have a better opportunity to serve Jordan. That his new role will be a challenge for him and that hopefully he and the King will get closer.
Then Wolf Blitzer asked the King "is your son the Crown Prince?"
Abdullah laughed and said "he's only ten" and then he said something around the lines of "I have four brothers and we have systems in place in case something happens"
So..no new information there.
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  #290  
Old 12-07-2004, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
King Abdullah commented on the dismissal of Prince Hamzah as Crown Prince on CNN today. I just finished watching the short interview.
He basically repeated the fact that he thinks Prince Hamzah will now have a better opportunity to serve Jordan. That his new role will be a challenge for him and that hopefully he and the King will get closer.
Then Wolf Blitzer asked the King "is your son the Crown Prince?"
Abdullah laughed and said "he's only ten" and then he said something around the lines of "I have four brothers and we have systems in place in case something happens"
So..no new information there.
I was hoping for smthing new,we've heard this a lot ... Now what did he mean by laughin and saying his son was only ten?? I just can't think anymore!

Thanks you dear for the comments,ur the best :)
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  #291  
Old 12-07-2004, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-R-O-U-B-L-E
I was hoping for smthing new,we've heard this a lot ... Now what did he mean by laughin and saying his son was only ten?? I just can't think anymore!

Thanks you dear for the comments,ur the best :)
you're welcome!:)

It was interesting that King Abdullah didnt betray any emotion like anger or anxiety when he was asked about Prince Hamzah. I found it interesting that he said that Prince Hamzah's new role will be challenging for him and that he hoped that they'd become closer. Perhaps, in some way, he wants to preserve his relationship with his brother despite offending him.
When he laughed about Prince Hussein being crown prince, I think he was trying to protect his son by not outrightly portraying him as Hamzah's replacement. Obviously, if Prince Hussein becomes CP, many people in the 'Hamzah/Noor camp' might direct their anger and scheming at the little boy. Which is sad because none of this is his fault.
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  #292  
Old 12-07-2004, 07:38 PM
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Prince Feisal

I think Prince Feisal (Faysal); don't know correct spelling is a good choice. I really do--keep saying it I know--like that man. I suspect he is well thought of in Jordan as he seems humble, sensible, respectful and just a fine person. He-more than anyone--with his respectful attitudes toward his siblings and QN seems to be capable of providing the glue to keep things moving on a smooth, steady path. By the way, this is an excellent, informative post. Thank you.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Veram98
POLICYWATCH
The Washington Institute for Near East Policy

Number 921 November 29, 2004

ANALYZING KING ABDULLAH'S CHANGE IN THE LINE OF SUCCESSION
By Robert Satloff
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  #293  
Old 12-08-2004, 02:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
King Abdullah commented on the dismissal of Prince Hamzah as Crown Prince on CNN today. I just finished watching the short interview.
He basically repeated the fact that he thinks Prince Hamzah will now have a better opportunity to serve Jordan. That his new role will be a challenge for him and that hopefully he and the King will get closer.
Then Wolf Blitzer asked the King "is your son the Crown Prince?"
Abdullah laughed and said "he's only ten" and then he said something around the lines of "I have four brothers and we have systems in place in case something happens"
So..no new information there.
I sincerely hope that what he has said here tonight is genuine. I hope that P. Hamzah will have a significant role to play in Jordan, and not be shifted to the sidelines because of fear and ego. Hamzah is a "sincere soldier" and a loyal servant of Jordan. I hope KA will truly recognize this and create an environment where P. Hamzah can contribute to his fullest.
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  #294  
Old 12-08-2004, 03:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
King Abdullah commented on the dismissal of Prince Hamzah as Crown Prince on CNN today. I just finished watching the short interview.
He basically repeated the fact that he thinks Prince Hamzah will now have a better opportunity to serve Jordan. That his new role will be a challenge for him and that hopefully he and the King will get closer.
Then Wolf Blitzer asked the King "is your son the Crown Prince?"
Abdullah laughed and said "he's only ten" and then he said something around the lines of "I have four brothers and we have systems in place in case something happens"
So..no new information there.
I saw it, too, and I wouldnīt say that he was exactly laughing about Blitzerīs suggestion that his elder son must be the crown prince now. The impression I got was that he is still too young to tell. I think his son must prove first that he is worthy of the crown prince title. I canīt remember him implying that that there is a system of brothers in place in case something happens, either. What I understood was that he still regards one of his brothers as the crown prince.
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  #295  
Old 12-08-2004, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merca
I saw it, too, and I wouldnīt say that he was exactly laughing about Blitzerīs suggestion that his elder son must be the crown prince now. The impression I got was that he is still too young to tell. I think his son must prove first that he is worthy of the crown prince title. I canīt remember him implying that that there is a system of brothers in place in case something happens, either. What I understood was that he still regards one of his brothers as the crown prince.
KA can't afford to have family disunity. That alone would be a serious crack in his leadership. He's going to have to win over his brothers if his grip on power is to remain undisturbed.
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  #296  
Old 12-08-2004, 04:10 AM
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Angry

Quote:
Originally Posted by kinneret5764
KA can't afford to have family disunity. That alone would be a serious crack in his leadership. He's going to have to win over his brothers if his grip on power is to remain undisturbed.
I think that Feisal will be appointed as Regent.
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  #297  
Old 12-08-2004, 05:31 AM
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Transcript of the interview (from CNN)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merca
I saw it, too, and I wouldnīt say that he was exactly laughing about Blitzerīs suggestion that his elder son must be the crown prince now. The impression I got was that he is still too young to tell. I think his son must prove first that he is worthy of the crown prince title. I canīt remember him implying that that there is a system of brothers in place in case something happens, either. What I understood was that he still regards one of his brothers as the crown prince.
BLITZER: All right, one final question, because I know your time is limited. The decision that you made in recent days to have the crown prince no longer be the crown prince, a lot of our viewers are interested in that. They're interested in your monarchy. But what was the story behind the story there?

ABDULLAH: Well, just before his late majesty passed away, he had said that the issue of crown prince is one that should be just a role that is with very limited capabilities.
I have four very strong brothers, very, very capable. Two of them -- Hamza, who was the crown prince, coming back to serve Jordan within the next 12 months. And, basically, this allows him to be able to expand his horizons, get involved in the issues that he cares about that I believe will really serve the country, as opposed to be limited by the title, which his late majesty had dictated.

BLITZER: Is he happy about this?

ABDULLAH: I think this opens a new opportunity for him. So it's a challenge, because it means that he will work closer with me, I hope, and be able to have more of a breadth of getting involved with Jordanian society. He has a lot of capabilities that he can bring towards his country. And I'm looking forward to his return. And I think that you'll see tremendous things from him.

BLITZER: And your son is now effectively the crown prince?

ABDULLAH: No. He is only 10 years old. And the way that the system has been done is that the role of crown prince will not be filled. Depending on circumstances, if anything should happen, there are instructions and there's a system in place, where the most capable of my brothers will be the one who is responsible to continue the process.

BLITZER: I hope none of that is necessary. I hope you live many, many happy and wonderful years.

ABDULLAH: That's very kind of you.
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  #298  
Old 12-08-2004, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merca
I saw it, too, and I wouldnīt say that he was exactly laughing about Blitzerīs suggestion that his elder son must be the crown prince now. The impression I got was that he is still too young to tell. I think his son must prove first that he is worthy of the crown prince title. I canīt remember him implying that that there is a system of brothers in place in case something happens, either. What I understood was that he still regards one of his brothers as the crown prince.
Well I remember the interview quite well, I was listening pretty carefully. There was a short chuckle/laugh when Blitzer asked him about Prince Hussein.
Also, I distinctly remember the King saying that he had four capable brothers and that there was a "system in place in case something happens" After which Wolf Blitzer said something along the lines of "well we certainly hope nothing like that will happen and you will live long and happy years"
And then the interview ended

Ooppps..I just saw Veram's transcript.
Pretty close!
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  #299  
Old 12-08-2004, 08:48 PM
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Well, they've updated P. Hamzah's website. They've removed the "Crown" from his title on the main page, etc.

http://www.princehamzah.jo/
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  #300  
Old 12-08-2004, 10:56 PM
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Noor on Hamzah in 1999

From article by Leslie Bennetts:

My only indications I ever gave my husband of what I thought succession would be is what he thought was right--and that I would support whomever he chose, whatever their feelings about me.

My husband made his feelings about our son very clear on his own; they didn't need to be encouraged or promoted by me. The irony is I urged my husband to give Hamzah a chance to complete his education and have some time free of the inevitable pressures that would have been the result of his having institutionalized him into a position. But no one will believe this.

A lot of what is being speculated on is based on delusions what a great life this is. I used to say to my husband "you wouldn't wish this job on your worst enemy--unless they were the right person for the job.

So, even then, she saw downside of what she termed being "institutionalized" in this position of King or even CP.

AND

He knew every day of his life and I knew from the day we became engaged that every moment was precious and that anything could happen at anytime. From that moment, I would have been willing to give my life for him. WE all would, because he represented something so much bigger than what we represented in our own lives.

Please note she says WE, giving credit to all the family and their love for KH.

FINALLY--and I am trying to live my life with this wisdom:

In my husband's position, he always felt that his responsibility was to project only the most positive, constructive, loving, caring, comforting spirit to everyone encountered, no matter what he was feeling inside. It was easy to see that this was one way of giving the best of oneself to others, and also it happens to be a very peaceful way to live your life, to the extent you can do it.


In the midst of her grief, this interview gives perhaps the most genuine insight into Queen Noor. She often "parsed" her words and spoke very carefully so as not to offend anyone. Yet, the writer, who composed this article, noted a distinct difference in the woman she first interviewed before KH's death and Noor in the months afterwards. "Such personal admissions, like saying she was not sleeping nights were rare," according to the writer. "Six months ago when I first met her she was working hard to maintain her impenatrable facade. The simplest question elicited numbing streams of verbiage. But the last 12 months have been a roller coaster ride for the Queen and the immense loss she has suffered has left her more vulnerable and therefore more accessible than usual."


When asked if she would be disappointed if her son never became King, Noor shrugged and said I haven't thought about it. Whatever is in the country's best interests.


Believe it, don't believe it. These are Noor's words from a great article written by a very careful, respected and respectful writer. Five years have changed things a lot but I feel she is a woman focused on moving on with her life and imparts that to her children--including Hamzah. She truly does embrace Islam and its tenents that all is in God's hands......so why worry? I retain my respect for Noor and wish her the very best. I think she has things in perspective and I love her sharing KH's approach to life. So simple, so wise......When my father had a stroke and my mother was depressed, a doctor friend said "are you keeping busy?" She said "yes." He said "good; now triple it and focus on others." It's what he seemed to do--and now what she seems determined to carry on. I hope the rest of the JRF retains same focus.

Yes, the JRF has issues but don't we all? Frankly, I feel blessed mine are not being played out on such a large stage!
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