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  #221  
Old 12-01-2004, 12:46 PM
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I can't see where all the hate towards King Abdullah and Queen Rania are based on!!!!! Just because King Abdullah is a young king and has his own ideas and Rania is a beautifull woman, doesn't mean that they are bad!!! I feel a lot of jealousy on this forum against king abdullah and Queen Rania.

I think Hamzah should be happy that he is no longer the crownprince, that life is like being in a golden cage!

But in my eyes it is too bad that they didn't take his title away before he married Noor, because in my eyes that was a marriage based on the fact that he was the crownprince.
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  #222  
Old 12-01-2004, 01:18 PM
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Hamzah was at the opening of Parliament, all the brothers were. Also QR and muna
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  #223  
Old 12-01-2004, 01:29 PM
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"But Abdullah and his brothers had ''reached mutual consent on the need for change,'' a senior government official told the Associated Press on condition of anonymity. He declined to say if Hamzah, who returned home Friday on a college break, was present."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Safaa Batin

Hamza was present.
How do you know this? (The covert meeting, not the parliamentary opening.)
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  #224  
Old 12-01-2004, 01:57 PM
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Disappointed

Was the best interest of the Jordanian people taken into consideration? What's really upsetting about the Jordanian monarchy is that the interest of the King to pass the throne to the son and keep the throne in his nuclear family is much more important than the best interest of the Jordanian people. This has been repeated twice within the last five years. KH, on his death bed, took the title from his very capable brother Prince Hassan and passed it to his eldest son. And you all must admit, Prince Hassan is an experienced statesman and he would have made an excellent King. And once again, history is repeating itself, KA has stripped the CP title from his very capable half-brother who is VERY popular in Jordan despite his absence and his young age....and all of that to ensure that the throne remains in his nuclear family.
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  #225  
Old 12-01-2004, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tipper
well, P Hassan knew very well that the Constitution had been ignored back in '65, when he was made CP by his brother, so he could have named 1 of the 5 sons of KH as his Heir Apparent, if u remember Ali had been Heir apparent since his birth til 1998- so it had already happened, P Hassan had had a Heir Apparent , who was not his own son, for 23 years ...KH himself tells his brother that he had not agreed to have a meeting with KH' sons and KH himself- of course, I do understand very well that P Hassan wanted Rashid to be his CP, not 1 of his nephews, that's so normal.... can't c why KH could not understand it, as it looks he never thought that Abdullah would have wanted his own son as his CP... that's very surprising, was KH maybe a bit impaired by his illness ? What I also wonder why not make it easy for every1 and name Hamzah as the next King, straight away- btw, ure right, 34 years... but Hamzah also has been raised since his birth to be King, QN made it clear in her bio-
I hate to contradict you Tipper, but the Constitution was not ignored back in 1965. It was amended by Parliamentary Degree ( and as Prince Hassan was an 18 year old student away at university, I am sure he played no part in the decision, which was one of expediency). The amendment was to Article 28, (a) Chapter Four; The Executive Power; Part 1; The King and his Perogatives. The amendment was then recorded in the Official Gazette No. 1831 of 1/4/1965. I was sent this information this very morning by someone after a long discussion. It reads as follows :

(a) The Royal title shall pass from the holder of the Throne to his eldest son, and to the eldest son of that son and in linear sucession by a similar process thereafter. Should the eldest son die before the Throne devolves upon him, his eldest son shall inherit the Throne, despite the existance of brothers to the deceased son. The King may, however, select one of his brothers as heir apparent. In this event, title to the Throne shall pass to him from the holder of the Throne.

So no provision for a nephew. Without further parliamentary amendments, Prince Hassan had but two choices. His son Rashid or his brother Mohammed who had already been passed over in the matter because of ill health. King Hussein did not read the small print, or did not choose to give it importance. Maybe being an absolute ruler for over forty years does that to you !

Quote:
Originally Posted by almahboubah
Was the best interest of the Jordanian people taken into consideration? What's really upsetting about the Jordanian monarchy is that the interest of the King to pass the throne to the son and keep the throne in his nuclear family is much more important than the best interest of the Jordanian people. This has been repeated twice within the last five years. KH, on his death bed, took the title from his very capable brother Prince Hassan and passed it to his eldest son. And you all must admit, Prince Hassan is an experienced statesman and he would have made an excellent King. And once again, history is repeating itself, KA has stripped the CP title from his very capable half-brother who is VERY popular in Jordan despite his absence and his young age....and all of that to ensure that the throne remains in his nuclear family.
What I find is strange, and I have mentioned it earlier, that no one has chosen to comment on the so called reason for the change...that the post is 'honorary' and that Prince Hamzah would not have been able to exercise responsibility had he held it. How come no one thought to point out to the late King that he was doing something incorrect in piling responsibilty after responsibility on Prince Hassan for 34 years ? I think a little more honesty is needed all round. Just say, I want my son to succeed me. Also, your point about what is best for the people of Jordan is well taken. If God Forbid something happened to the King in the short term, Jordan would find itself in the the exact same situation that the then King, Prime Minister and Parliament sought to avoid in 1965, a minor king and a protracted regency.
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  #226  
Old 12-01-2004, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trish79nl
I think Hamzah should be happy that he is no longer the crownprince, that life is like being in a golden cage!

But in my eyes it is too bad that they didn't take his title away before he married Noor, because in my eyes that was a marriage based on the fact that he was the crownprince.
i think the matter for Hamzah is that he's been offended,I wonder why abdullah didint ask him to write a resign letter,thats the way of kicking some1 out respectively
but i agree with you about him being free&happy the rest of his life unlike his uncle who wasted 34 years of his life,i just hope this won't affect her marriage in case it was arranged(which i belive it was)
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  #227  
Old 12-01-2004, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cute_girl
i think the matter for Hamzah is that he's been offended,I wonder why abdullah didint ask him to write a resign letter,thats the way of kicking some1 out respectively
but i agree with you about him being free&happy the rest of his life unlike his uncle who wasted 34 years of his life,i just hope this won't affect her marriage in case it was arranged
I agree with the first part,at least now he has the chance to do whatever he wants and live freely.
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  #228  
Old 12-01-2004, 03:55 PM
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If P. Hamzah's marriage was based on the fact that he was crown prince then how sad. If so, I expect a royal divorce within the next few months; they would have married each other for the worst of reasons. We'll see in time if P. Hamzah & Noor's marriage was based on love or convenience. I heard rumors before that P. Noor was not the P. Hamzah's choice but was what his mother Q. Noor wanted. Now that he is no longer CP, he can go after the girl he truly loves - if this story is true.

It's kinda nice to see him with a beard. He put on a good face today. If he was mad or embarrassed he certanily didn't show it. A true professional is he!
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  #229  
Old 12-01-2004, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhaegar
"But Abdullah and his brothers had ''reached mutual consent on the need for change,'' a senior government official told the Associated Press on condition of anonymity. He declined to say if Hamzah, who returned home Friday on a college break, was present."


How do you know this? (The covert meeting, not the parliamentary opening.)
I've read that in the newspaper, they said that the source of this news were important people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlightrhapsody
I don't know about that, Abir. I know that Hussein asked Abdullah to crown Hamzah as Crown Prince. I don't think Abdullah ever promised Hussein that Hamzah would be king, though.
I also read that there was no promise from Abdullah to Hussain , they said what people think about that was speculations.
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  #230  
Old 12-01-2004, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Safaa Batin
I also read that there was no promise from Abdullah to Hussain , they said what people think about that was speculations.
It goes by default!
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  #231  
Old 12-01-2004, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shelley
I hate to contradict you Tipper, but the Constitution was not ignored back in 1965. It was amended by Parliamentary Degree ( and as Prince Hassan was an 18 year old student away at university, I am sure he played no part in the decision, which was one of expediency). The amendment was to Article 28, (a) Chapter Four; The Executive Power; Part 1; The King and his Perogatives. The amendment was then recorded in the Official Gazette No. 1831 of 1/4/1965. I was sent this information this very morning by someone after a long discussion. It reads as follows :

(a) The Royal title shall pass from the holder of the Throne to his eldest son, and to the eldest son of that son and in linear sucession by a similar process thereafter. Should the eldest son die before the Throne devolves upon him, his eldest son shall inherit the Throne, despite the existance of brothers to the deceased son. The King may, however, select one of his brothers as heir apparent. In this event, title to the Throne shall pass to him from the holder of the Throne.

So no provision for a nephew. Without further parliamentary amendments, Prince Hassan had but two choices. His son Rashid or his brother Mohammed who had already been passed over in the matter because of ill health. King Hussein did not read the small print, or did not choose to give it importance. Maybe being an absolute ruler for over forty years does that to you !
shelley, as you said , there was no ignorance of Constitution , I don't know why some people her urge that it was againest law despite all the clarification of the constitution. choosing P Hassan in 65 , chooing Hamzah, and stripping them the titles , were purely constitutional without any suspicion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T-R-O-U-B-L-E
It goes by default!
But then king Hussain himself didn't keep his promise to P Hassan, if it was by default.
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  #232  
Old 12-01-2004, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Safaa Batin
But then king Hussain himself didn't keep his promise to P Hassan, if it was by default.
it goes by default from father to son if the King didn't name a crown prince. so upto now the CP is Hussien till the king announces smthin...let's wait and see it's gonna be a matter of days,just till the parliament settles down and starts working properly...
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  #233  
Old 12-01-2004, 04:50 PM
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I Agree: The Shock Is What's Troubling A Lot of Us

I agree it was the shock and timing as KA's son is still so young that has us all in an uproar. It felt unexpected. Was it expected though in Jordan at this time?

The reality is we don't know what was said or promised at the end of KH's life. I do have a question--sorry for ignorance. Was Hussein the eldest son in his family? For some reason, I did not think he had been but I must be wrong.

Feisal!!!! That's the name. Now I like Prince Feisal. He doesn't seem to hold grudges, has been kind to his mom, his siblings, his stepmom, Noor; you know how you just have a good feeling about a person? Well, that's how I feel about Feisal. He doesn't seem to be a power-grabber either. I don't know how he is perceived in Jordan; might anyone weigh in on this or his relationship with KA?

OK, now I'm over shock, I do want to say I meant it and wrote it awhile ago I wish nothing bad for KA and QR and let me also add, I don't understand why their lovely young family was targeted for assasination by al Quaeda while on a yacht holiday. I guess I don't understand KA or QR. When she was first named Queen, I remember reading an article in Harper's Bazaar and thinking "what a marvelous, thoughtful, caring person." I don't know--maybe if I were made Queen tomorrow, I would indulge myself with elegant attire and homes. She shows maturity at times; then real immaturity at others. But I suppose we all do---just not on a public stage. I do think she is a good mother and actually like her best when she is with them. There was a very good article in "Hello" showing Rania in jeans with her kids and it was all about them and her strong feelings about motherhood--all admirable. I am not calling for her to be dowdy......I imagine we all would love to look as stunning as she does (and things are not always as they appear; she really remade herself as Abdullah--following in his father's footsteps--was a bit of a womanizer for awhile in their marriage. Now he looks at her like she is a goddess.......perhaps she does things to maintain her husband's interest in her...just a theory).

As for Princess Muna, I disagree and have said so before. If you look at some of the photos of her during their marriage, you see a stunning blonde woman with lovely features. I thought her most attractive (the marriage photos weren't the best; something I can personally identify with. I look at mine and "Yuck!") but after her marriage, she was most attractive in my opinion. NOW IF she spread rumors about Noor which were hurtful and untruthful, she was wrong and, yes, Queen Alia was the one KH married and left her for....not Noor. Perhaps she and the kids were hoping for a reconciliation after Alia's death. That wouldn't be unnnatural. I thought Princess Dina lovely too but it was an arranged marriage; she was an intellectual (I love how that term is used almost as a degrading one--Princess Sarvath is described the same way. When did being an "intellectual woman" make you a bad person?") I think it's a quality to be respected.

Having said what I did about the possibility Muna made bad comments about Noor, I shouldn't call others names either. So apologize for offence and "jerks" comment. I can't help the fact I liked Hamzah and Noor--that's my problem, I see good things in all of them and what I hate is the confusion, heart-wrenching confusion perhaps for all of them. I don't understand the JRF as much as I've followed them over the years. I stand by my remarks there is a lot going on we will likely NEVER know. If a new CP has to be appointed, I hope it is Feisal--but he has kids too! The only male w/o kids and unmarried is Hashim. Was Hamzah's marriage an impetus for this? Sounds stupid but was the fact he might soon have a son some reason for this fast transition? As the al Quaeda plot shows, this is not a "safe" position. Was KA afraid something would happen, CP Hamzah would be King and his son would be next in line? Thinking aloud.

IF KH knew Hamzah would never be King, why set up this situation to begin with? OK, that's my real question. He knew KA had a son, KH's namesake, just as he knew Hassan had a son. So--at the end of the day--why were things set up so? Name KA CP and Feisal as next son behind him in line. End of story. Smoother transition, I think. Had KH lived, who would be CP now? Likely Hamzah but who knows?

Also, let's not forget Ali was CP or potential CP for awhile---I think this was in the midst of KH's grief for loss of Alia.....I feel for him, too.

It's hard when a parent identifies a "favorite." Hard for the favorite; hard for the rest of the siblings. I speak here from personal experience. I can't imagine how I'd feel if it were played out on a public stage.

I think it right and proper to show empathy for the situation and all involved--no matter whose side you favor. That is the great thing about this Forum. You learn, you agree, you disagree but I think we can all agree our emotions are running high so it's OK to express them. No matter what, our emotions probably are but a fraction of the emotions the JRF are feeling now. May God grant them all safety, wisdom, future happiness and the realization that, in the end, family is all you've got.

Mary Shawn

P.S. One good thing I have learned is staunch appreciation for Hassan and Sarvath. They are class acts. Period. I admire them very much.
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  #234  
Old 12-01-2004, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cut1me
oh really? i thought people in Jordan loved P.Hamzah
yes they loved him and very much, he looks like King Hussain, and looks very smart, but no preferance depending on his political experience because he wasn't having any duties and we don't know his thoughts.
we were very sad for him , but at the end the good of Jordan is above any individual , if king abdullah is not in harmony with his crown prince whoever was right, who will pay for that? it is Jordan and its stability.
I think king hussain was right when urge on Abdullah to keep the CP position without powers, no body wants the country to end up with two heads.
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  #235  
Old 12-01-2004, 05:08 PM
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I think in time the people will get over P. Hamzah's demotion. When they see P. Hussein grow, and if he grows up to become a man of honor and wisdom, they will not question KA's decision. Time will tell. Right now, P. Hamzah will have to figure out what he will do for the rest of his life. He's set for life regardless, it's not like he's unemployed with 5 kids, and can't pay the rent.
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  #236  
Old 12-01-2004, 05:35 PM
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Apology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balqis
Jerks??????????
Now that I've calmed down--I think it's fair to say a lot of postings were result of some shock at annoucement--I do wish to apologize for the name calling. I wrote a longer version but it is inexcusable. No, they are not jerks. You know what I detest--it's the heartache I'm sure all members of the JRF are feeling. I think this could have been set up more smoothly from the get-go. That is what is most troubling but to call them jerks was uncalled for and poor judgement on my part. I wish them all well. That, in the end, is all...well, that, and a hope they all realize, when it all boils down to the end, family is all you really have. I hope things smooth over and wish them all safety, happiness, and only good things. You were right to call me on this and I am embarrassed I sunk to that level. Mary Shawn
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  #237  
Old 12-01-2004, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryshawn
You were right to call me on this and I am embarrassed I sunk to that level. Mary Shawn
No dramas, Mary Shawn :) I did think this was the case, that you were just upset and stunned at the news.
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  #238  
Old 12-01-2004, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
IF KH knew Hamzah would never be King, why set up this situation to begin with? OK, that's my real question. He knew KA had a son, KH's namesake, just as he knew Hassan had a son. So--at the end of the day--why were things set up so? Name KA CP and Feisal as next son behind him in line. End of story. Smoother transition, I think. Had KH lived, who would be CP now? Likely Hamzah but who knows?
Most probable that he wanted him to be a king, but we should not forget that he took the decision of changing the succession at his last days, and I don't think it was possible or convenient at that time for king Abdullah to thoroughly discuss the succession issue with his father especially that he was very sick.
King hussain decided for prince hassan, decided his successor, and wanted to decide the successor of his successor, KH reigned for about 50 years accompleshed alot and gained the people love and respect but he cannot reign for the coming 50, countries are not ruled by Deads. It is a new epoch, now the king is Abdullah and he knows the current needs of the country , and he is ethically reponsible of his decisions and his choices should be open to be in the level of the responsibility, If he made any mistake he cannot give excuse by saying it was my father's desire, countrie are not run by emotions.

I think naming Faisal as crown prince i not suitable because he is approximatly in the same age of the king.




Quote:
I think it right and proper to show empathy for the situation and all involved--no matter whose side you favor. That is the great thing about this Forum. You learn, you agree, you disagree but I think we can all agree our emotions are running high so it's OK to express them. No matter what, our emotions probably are but a fraction of the emotions the JRF are feeling now. May God grant them all safety, wisdom, future happiness and the realization that, in the end, family is all you've got.
you are right mary, I learned alot from this forum it is very interesting, and I changed many of my opinions, in this topic of prince hamzah at the begginning i was driven by emotions , very sad and angry, I interact with all the posts and opinions, and was affected by them, and I was like thinking loudly, but I think i became more rational now to look to the big picture.
The decision of the king could be wrong or right we just have our opinions, only the future will tell the truth.
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  #239  
Old 12-01-2004, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tipper
u have just made a point !
Does any1 think QN will stay still and shut up, she's popular in many countries, she can talk to world media, do what Hamzah is not going to do-
She has no choice but to "shut up" as you say.
Do you honestly think she'll broadcast her disappointment all over the world?
Besides, Jordan is a sovereign nation, no one else can interfere in the succession of its monarchy..they'd have no reason to, because Abdullah's son is his natural heir according to the law in Jordan, the same law that applies to monarchies all over the world.
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  #240  
Old 12-01-2004, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-R-O-U-B-L-E
it goes by default from father to son if the King didn't name a crown prince. so upto now the CP is Hussien till the king announces smthin...let's wait and see it's gonna be a matter of days,just till the parliament settles down and starts working properly...
sorry , i think we were misunderstanding each other, i was saying the I read yesterday in an arabic website that may be there is no such a promise from K Abdullah to king hussain ( his father, i think u thought prince hussain), but speculations from people.

yes I know now P hussein is the crown prince by default.

No doubt Hamza supports his brother and they are a family who love each other, and hamza will be given duties,but I don't think queen Noor and either hamza are so happy for not being a cp, there is a strong believe that queen noor made pressure on KH to make her son the CP, and to striping p hassan his title, then to make Hamzah marry early to a hashimite.
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