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  #201  
Old 12-01-2004, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryshawn
Jerky in their actions and not just this one.....I was very upset when KA, QR and their family was targeted for assasination by I believe al Quaeda. I don't buy the annoucement from KA. I think there is pettiness going on which is beneath them and all concerned. I think there is a lot more to the story and it smacks of things that are not admirable, honest nor in the best interest of anyone at this time. I don't like deception. I rethought it out and wrote a more comprehensive response. I am shocked and with all that is going on in the world right now, this seems neither the time or place for the decision. I think KA's announcement makes no sense. If that makes me a jerk instead, I will step up to the plate. I believe in keeping your word and if you can't, say so at the time. How do we know KH didn't ask KA to work to change constitution to permit Hamzah to succeed him? I believe in honesty, empathy and the simple fact leaders are supposed to be role models in their conduct. I believe in supporting worthy causes--and I put my money where my mouth is in this case by contributing annually to KHF and QNF. I find it sad that my donations to the people of Jordan don't equal the amount spent by QR on a purse. (her own words when asked favorite gift: a Louis Vuitton bag from her husband; not a "gift" honoring her by Jordanian children or the people. Seems superficial. Quote from "Vanity Fair" 2004)I don't call KA/QR evil or villianous but I don't think this seems right, kind, explicable nor honorable. My opinion.
Why would you say King Abdullah deceived people about this? It was inevitable (the announcement). Most people realized Hamzah's position to be only temporary.
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  #202  
Old 12-01-2004, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryshawn
Jerky in their actions and not just this one.....I was very upset when KA, QR and their family was targeted for assasination by I believe al Quaeda. I don't buy the annoucement from KA. I think there is pettiness going on which is beneath them and all concerned. I think there is a lot more to the story and it smacks of things that are not admirable, honest nor in the best interest of anyone at this time. I don't like deception. I rethought it out and wrote a more comprehensive response. I am shocked and with all that is going on in the world right now, this seems neither the time or place for the decision. I think KA's announcement makes no sense. If that makes me a jerk instead, I will step up to the plate. I believe in keeping your word and if you can't, say so at the time. How do we know KH didn't ask KA to work to change constitution to permit Hamzah to succeed him? I believe in honesty, empathy and the simple fact leaders are supposed to be role models in their conduct. I believe in supporting worthy causes--and I put my money where my mouth is in this case by contributing annually to KHF and QNF. I find it sad that my donations to the people of Jordan don't equal the amount spent by QR on a purse. (her own words when asked favorite gift: a Louis Vuitton bag from her husband; not a "gift" honoring her by Jordanian children or the people. Seems superficial. Quote from "Vanity Fair" 2004)I don't call KA/QR evil or villianous but I don't think this seems right, kind, explicable nor honorable. My opinion.
You can't describe the King and the Queen that bad just because you do not share them same preferences, if Queen Rania prefers her son to be a king that make sence it is natural, but with all my respect you people from over the seas if prefer hamzah that make no since, actually irrelevant.
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  #203  
Old 12-01-2004, 01:40 AM
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I think, as do most people, that King Abdullah intended this all along, but it happened much sooner than any of us anticipated.

Why did it happen now rather than later?

My theory is just that King Abdullah knows that if something happens to him, his son will be too young to actually run Jordan and act as king. He wants the same people loyal to him now, to continue in influence until his son can take over. If he lets Hamza remain Crown Prince, there is a possibility that if disloyalties or dissent will arise, there will be another "side" (Hamza's) to move to or another potential ruler (Hamza) to influence.

By placing his son in the chain, he has removed this "other side."

If someone wants to assassinate King Abdullah, they are still stuck with his people acting through his son. Strategically, it's a good move.

It makes me wonder if there has been some dissent in the royal advisors and if Hamza has expressed views contrary to the King's.

I do find it curious that King Abdullah never mentioned his father's desire to see Hamza as CP in his letter, he made it sound like the decision to place Hamza as Crown Prince was all his own. He also makes the CP title seem trivial. I think he doesn't want to be seen as going against his father's wishes which would possibily put him in an unfavorable light with many Jordanians who held the former King in such high esteem.
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  #204  
Old 12-01-2004, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balqis
Thanks Humera. I truly hope the democratization of Jordan happens fairly soon, in the next decade or so. To mix family and politics, as I've said above is terrible. There's always someone painted as the bad guy and it reflects badly on the whole family. Royalty is perhaps better off being above politics. I hope the reaction to the recent news about Hamzah makes people at the palace take note.
I agree. Although Jordan is far from a democratic country, following the succession rules is a start. Prince Hamzah certainly wouldn't be the Crown Prince in a democratic country like Britian or any other European monarchy.
Like you say, mixing politics and the personal matters of the monarch is dangerous, which is precisely why in places like the UK the monarchy isnt allowed to interfere in the governing process.


As Safaa Batin mentioned in a different thread, the Jordanian monarchy has always been passed down from father to son, like the monarchies in the rest of the world. It was only King Hussein who changed the constitution to "allow" his brother to become Crown Prince. Even with that change, the son of the King would naturally be the preferred heir. The only reason Prince Hassan became CP was because of the uncertainty at the time. King Hussein shouldn't have made that change in the first place, then Prince Hamzah wouldn't be in this mess. Even if Prince Abdullah was young at the time, he still should've been CP.
Like I've said before, if you dont follow the law when it comes to something as important as the succession of a monarchy, than all you'll have is anarchy.
Now that doesnt mean I like what Abdullah has done to Hamzah. But it was, unfortunately, a necessary step to clear up the confusion.
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  #205  
Old 12-01-2004, 02:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
Wow..
Im still surprised at how many people wanted Hamzah to be King.
I like him too and as much as Im disappointed in Abdullah for handling all of this so badly, he's only correcting his father's mistake, like Balqis said, by following the rules of succession.
I can't help but agree with you Humera. I'm one of the many who whould have like to see Hamzah become king but were he a member of another royal family, he wouldn't have been considered for the job at all.

I wonder if Abdullah will choose another one of his brothers now. I doubt it though. He'll most likely want his son to be Crown Prince. His description of the position of Crown Prince as being merely an honourary title sort of gives it away. His son could be young enough to hold that honourary title without having many responsibilities.
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  #206  
Old 12-01-2004, 02:29 AM
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Check out this article from the Chicago Sun times, especially the headlines. I have highlighed the stuff I found "interesting."

Quote:

Jordan's king boots brother

November 29, 2004

BY JAMAL HALABY

AMMAN, Jordan -- King Abdullah II stripped his half brother and heir apparent of his title as crown prince in an abrupt shakeup Sunday aimed at redeeming the full power the king inherited from his late father.

He told Prince Hamzah in an emotional televised message that he had decided to ''free'' him ''from the constraints of the position of crown prince in order to give you the freedom to work and undertake any mission or responsibility I entrust you with.''

Abdullah had chosen Hamzah, now a 24-year-old American college student, hours after their father -- King Hussein -- died of cancer in February 1999. The designation was out of respect for Hussein, who is known to have favored Hamzah the most among his 11 children from four marriages.

Sending a message

But Abdullah and his brothers had ''reached mutual consent on the need for change,'' a senior government official told the Associated Press on condition of anonymity. He declined to say if Hamzah, who returned home Friday on a college break, was present.

Abdullah was making this move ''to tell everyone that he's firmly on the saddle,'' said Jordanian political analyst Labib Kamhawi Kamhawi.

Abdullah and Hamzah displayed no open rivalry. The king hosted a state reception and a gala dinner for Hamzah on May 27, when the royal family officially celebrated the prince's August wedding to a distant cousin.

Hamzah has been an undergraduate student in political science at a U.S. university since the fall of 2001. He was married in August 2003 and his wife, Princess Noor, 22, attends the same American university, which Jordanian officials have refused to name for security reasons.

Abdullah is often seen warmly greeting Hamzah in public. Officials say privately that he lets Hamzah in on private matters.

No successor named

Mahmoud Kharabsheh, a longtime member of parliament's Legal Committee, said the change was in line with the constitution, which says the crown must go to Abdullah's eldest son -- Hussein, now age 10 -- or his eldest brother, Faisal, but not to Hamzah, who is one of the king's younger brothers.

A senior aide to the king said the move had no political ramifications.

Abdullah did not name a successor on Sunday. He said he would continue to give the issue his ''sincere attention.''

Hamzah is Hussein's son from his fourth marriage, to New York-born Lisa Halaby, who became Queen Noor when she converted to Islam upon her marriage to Hussein in 1978.

Abdullah is Hussein's eldest son. His mother is Englishwoman Antoinette Gardiner, who became known as Princess Muna, the late king's second wife.
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  #207  
Old 12-01-2004, 03:20 AM
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pdas I noticed that the last name of the author of that article is Halaby. Thats the same last name Queen Noor had before she married King Hussein.
I wonder if there's a connection?
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  #208  
Old 12-01-2004, 03:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
pdas I noticed that the last name of the author of that article is Halaby. Thats the same last name Queen Noor had before she married King Hussein.
I wonder if there's a connection?
WOW, just saw it...funny, huh..

As far as I know, Jamal Halaby mostly covers the news from Jordan for his newspaper, Associated Press. I have read couple of his articles and found some interesting, thus, I posted this one.
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  #209  
Old 12-01-2004, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
But Abdullah and his brothers had ''reached mutual consent on the need for change,'' a senior government official told the Associated Press on condition of anonymity. He declined to say if Hamzah, who returned home Friday on a college break, was present.


Hamza was present.
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  #210  
Old 12-01-2004, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdas1201
WOW, just saw it...funny, huh..

As far as I know, Jamal Halaby mostly covers the news from Jordan for his newspaper, Associated Press. I have read couple of his articles and found some interesting, thus, I posted this one.
Thanx for the info.
I suppose it could be a coincidence.
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  #211  
Old 12-01-2004, 05:49 AM
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Unhappy

im still in a state of shock about what happened. I was just going through Jordan times to see if there is anything new about P.Hamzah, i would love to see a picture of him just to see how he looks, if he is ok. Tuesday's jordantimes they have the article about P.H reply and at the end they put a summary of what KA wrote:
King Abdullah on Sunday sent a letter to the Prince, freeing him from the constraints of the honorary position of Crown Prince.
The King said: "I have been eager since I came to the Throne of our beloved Jordan to reflect the true meaning of the position of Crown Prince as it is stated in the Constitution. This position is an honorary one that does not entail any authority or any responsibility."

"I have decided to free you from the constraints of the position of Crown Prince in order to give you the freedom to work and undertake any mission or responsibility I entrust you with, alongside with all our brothers, the sons of Al Hussein, and other members of the Hashemite family," King Abdullah told the Prince in the letter.

Ive been re reading that part several times, the word freeing him makes me feel bad, it sounds like being CP is such a burden and he is freeing him, that P.H hated it. I just felt that KA is maybe jealous of P.H or that he is disapointed in PH.
Some of the words that KA used is very powerful and im not sure the right ones, i feel there is so much more between the lines then we are aware of.

anyway LOL again i am thinking out loud, im just trying to make sense of what happened

what do Jordanians think of P.Hussain? I know he is still young but what is the general buzz about him.
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  #212  
Old 12-01-2004, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cut1me
what do Jordanians think of P.Hussain? I know he is still young but what is the general buzz about him.
we don't know him as still child, and as we don't know p Hamza well either, both are equal to us, and I prefer to keep it from father to son.
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  #213  
Old 12-01-2004, 06:00 AM
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P. Hamza does still have responsabilties in the jordan army?
To me, this is powerful to consider. Do you think he will keep his duties in the army? was that given automaticaly because he was a CP?
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  #214  
Old 12-01-2004, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Safaa Batin
we don't know him as still child, and as we don't know p Hamza well either, both are equal to us, and I prefer to keep it from father to son.
oh really? i thought people in Jordan loved P.Hamzah
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  #215  
Old 12-01-2004, 10:02 AM
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Was Hamzah present at parliamentary opening?

Was Prince Hamzah present at the second opening of parliament today? I only saw pictures of K. Abdullah.
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  #216  
Old 12-01-2004, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balqis
Why would you say King Abdullah deceived people about this? It was inevitable (the announcement). Most people realized Hamzah's position to be only temporary.
did they really, are u so sure, how could they, plz, reread the decree in which KA make Hamzah CP, dated Feb 9, 1999- I bet no1 could ever guess it as it was not temporay, it's only a pathetic excuse KA just made up, something to which no1 is to believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Safaa Batin
No it wasn't againest law, but not prefered by many, they see it is better to be from father to son, unless other way is necessary.
I think the law in Jordan is the King himself, so it was not against the law,-
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  #217  
Old 12-01-2004, 10:47 AM
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Whatever KA didn't keep his promise to the late KH or he just change his mind suddenly in one night, I think KA could never remove PH from CP if he didn't have a son. Having a son, is the main reason to change everyhting.
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  #218  
Old 12-01-2004, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-R-O-U-B-L-E
I know Carla,I feel as bad as u feel,i cried all night after i heard the news I even got sick,i didn't cry cuz he lost the title of CP,but just cuz i thought the most beautiful 5 years of his life were "gone in the wind",even if he was in love with Princess Noor , maybe it was just too early for him to get married,they cud have waited a year or 2,but i think cuz of his title they had to get married sooner. I might be soo wrong though
Nana, I'm upset as I'm thinking of KH, of his wish for Hamzah to be King, of KA's deception to his dying father, in my world, u are never to make a promise to your dying father, who's trusting u, and then , when u feel so self- assured as a King, u forget the promise, your father.... and I'm thinking of Hamzah who wanted the title , at least I think so, mainly 'cos his late father wqnted it for him.....PS- hope every1 can c how bold u are, posting here about KA's deeds !!!! u're having all my respect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shelley
Hi Tipper. I agree with a lot of what you have said, but I still insist that it was not a case of whether or not Prince Hassan wanted his son Rashid to succeed him(although it would be natural to assume so, ) but that even if he had had the meeting that everyone thinks was asked for and didn't happen, how could Prince Hassan agree to something the constitution does not allow for ? As you say, it says in the consitution that is in operation now, father to son. If Prince Hassan had become king it would have meant Hassan to Rashid. No scheming or coniving - just following the constitution. That is why I hold King Hussein very responsible for not thinking it all through properly.

There seem many tears being shed for Prince Hamzah 'wasting' five years working hard etc. He is luckier than Prince Hassan, who worked for 34 years and then had to remake a life at the age of 51, after being demonized. It is much easier to be 24 and still have many young years ahead of you. Prince Hassan literally gave Jordan the best years of his life and was kicked in the teeth as thanks. And he too could have made waves but I am sure chose not too because of loyalty to his country and his people, who would inevitably be the loosers in any taking of sides and fighting within the royal family.
well, P Hassan knew very well that the Constitution had been ignored back in '65, when he was made CP by his brother, so he could have named 1 of the 5 sons of KH as his Heir Apparent, if u remember Ali had been Heir apparent since his birth til 1998- so it had already happened, P Hassan had had a Heir Apparent , who was not his own son, for 23 years ...KH himself tells his brother that he had not agreed to have a meeting with KH' sons and KH himself- of course, I do understand very well that P Hassan wanted Rashid to be his CP, not 1 of his nephews, that's so normal.... can't c why KH could not understand it, as it looks he never thought that Abdullah would have wanted his own son as his CP... that's very surprising, was KH maybe a bit impaired by his illness ? What I also wonder why not make it easy for every1 and name Hamzah as the next King, straight away- btw, ure right, 34 years... but Hamzah also has been raised since his birth to be King, QN made it clear in her bio-

Quote:
Originally Posted by maryshawn
I didn't read other posts--so it is true but it still makes no sense. Wow, do I loathe KA now.
Mary, as always I agree with u, I can't help it, I hate unfairness, deception, hypocrisy.

I love it, the article, when it goes like -boots brother- and the words- out of respect of KH-

Quote:
Originally Posted by kinneret5764
Was Prince Hamzah present at the second opening of parliament today? I only saw pictures of K. Abdullah.
u have just made a point !
Does any1 think QN will stay still and shut up, she's popular in many countries, she can talk to world media, do what Hamzah is not going to do-
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  #219  
Old 12-01-2004, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abir
Whatever KA didn't keep his promise to the late KH or he just change his mind suddenly in one night, I think KA could never remove PH from CP if he didn't have a son. Having a son, is the main reason to change everyhting.
I don't know about that, Abir. I know that Hussein asked Abdullah to crown Hamzah as Crown Prince. I don't think Abdullah ever promised Hussein that Hamzah would be king, though.
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  #220  
Old 12-01-2004, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlightrhapsody
I don't know about that, Abir. I know that Hussein asked Abdullah to crown Hamzah as Crown Prince. I don't think Abdullah ever promised Hussein that Hamzah would be king, though.
Yes, maybe late KH should ask Abdallah to promise that PH will be a king. But KH was very sick, and removing P. Hassan was enough that time to go to details with P. Abdallah. Anyway, I think we just need time to forget about what happened.
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