The Future of the Danish Monarchy

[Muhler]

That is what I find so fascinating about monarchs. Despite their shortcomings, flaws and mistakes, they almost all try to do their very best. And usually end up doing a pretty good job.

Practically all current monarchs have their weak points and practically all of them have had their abilities seriously questioned when they were heirs.

Several of them have openly confessed being shy, insecure, scared even.

Yet, most of them are pretty popular or at least respected.

The most interesting thing IMO is not their flaws, but how they overcome them. And in that I can reflect myself in them, associate with them. In that way they are humans.
Imagine any of us, "winning the royal lottery" so to speak. With the personality we have, realizing that we are going to be the next head of state. We will get the best possible training, education and grooming, yes - but we all know our shortcomings - yet, we are going to be the one up front. For life!
That is daunting!

That's where it's good to have a solid team behind you. Must make it so much less lonely, so much less scary. It must also help tremendously that today's royals are often close personal friends.

 

[MARG]

Actually, I think Frederik's shyness is something he has really had to work on and he made his biggest leap when he met Mary. Frederik does fine with his contemporaries and is well at ease with his military background but being front and centre is hard for shy people who often end up being perceived as aloof, distant and cold, as Sun Lion mentioned. Yet one only has to see him with Mary and his children to know he is none of those.

Now had the scenario been different and he and Mary were together when they came out to the car, she'd have had his back. When they are together he seems visibly more relaxed and smiles and waves with a lot more ease or more naturally. It's just those walkabout times that don't come naturally to him, he has to work at them.

Joachim is the very epitome of urbane, suave, sophisticated, debonair, etc. He wears clothes well and looks like he belongs in the sophisticated set. Yet I don't find him really warm either, rather distant with a dash of arrogance.

Alighting from cars at official events Joachim exits from the left and Marie steps out onto the red carpet whereas Frederik and Mary follow protocol and she alights from the left and Frederik steps onto the red carpet. That small difference speaks to the gulf between the expectations of both Frederik and Joachim. The older will be doing this for the rest of his life whereas the younger has only to do it on occasion.

Frederik and Mary's twelve and a half year wedding anniversary resulted in many programs and retrospectives and just looking at that period of time you can see that Frederik has really come a long way. But yes, he's still working on it and probably will for the rest of his life.

 

[Nordic]

Rumours about Queen Margrethe abdicating...again.


"Tæt På" was the weekly that had the news about PH's burial, which was correct, that the court had to confirm after it hit the news.
Maybe they know something we don't know...

https://kendte.dk/rygter-om-at-dronning-margrethe-abdicerer/

"Rumors that Queen Margrethe abdicates has flourished many times.
They are doing it again but this time it's at the Court, the rumors are swirling, writes the weekly magazine Tæt På.

According to the weekly magazine, the staff are preparing for "a major event" that will be held in August 2018.
There is of course no one who wants to say anything officially but most guess that Queen Margrethe abdicates.

The magazine believes that this time it's not just unfounded rumors, because the timing is perfect. In May, Crown Prince Frederik will be 50 years old. He steps into character at a number of events throughout the spring as the country's crown prince.

And then the court's staff and finance manager Søren Kruse resigns. This means that Frederik can put together his own team. "


Well, perhaps Søren Kruse is retiring.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I know it is cursing in a Danish church but indeed an abdication in favour of the Crown Prince who is in the prime of his life is not a bad idea. It will only rejuvenate the monarchy and give chance to the older generation to step back and enjoy pleasant years, as we could see in the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, the Vatican and which we will see indeed in Japan.

 

[Minister of Court]

I hope the Queen won't abdicate before her Golden Jubilee. Such a milestone celebration would tie up her reign very nicely and it would also be a symbolic point to pass on the crown.

 

[Frozen Royalist]

Abdication or no abdication you've got to admit the royal family is in good hands in the good ol' Kingdom of Denmark.

-Frozen Royalist

 

[xenobia]

I hope the Queen won't abdicate before her Golden Jubilee. Such a milestone celebration would tie up her reign very nicely and it would also be a symbolic point to pass on the crown.

In other words, you think that she should stay on until 2022? I think that's quite a lot to ask from a woman who has severe back problems and a sick husband. I know she has a strong sense of duty, but I think that she deserves to slow down a little. Frederik (and Mary) are more than ready. And Margarethe doesn't need to retire full time. Just like princess Beatrix, she could do some assignments now and then. But I think she deserves to slow down.

 

[principessa]

What about the following option: Queen Margrethe steps down from the most of her duties, only appearing on state events like state visits, new years courts or opening of the parliament. She stays Queen to her death. The other engagements will be taken by Frederik, Mary, Joachim and Marie.

 

[Muhler]

That is the option that is considered the most likely at present. Should QMII decide to "retire".

Personally I think that's an awkward solution. Either you have a full-time monarch or you don't.
M&F would be in a kind of limbo; neither the regent couple nor the CP-couple

 

[zembra]

What about the following option: Queen Margrethe steps down from the most of her duties, only appearing on state events like state visits, new years courts or opening of the parliament. She stays Queen to her death. The other engagements will be taken by Frederik, Mary, Joachim and Marie.

That's my exact vision.

I am about 99,9% sure Crown Prince Frederik will not get the title of King before Queen Margrethe dies. He may act as the regent, and be one unofficially kind of like Frederik VI was unofficial regent for his father Christian VII in his late years when he became to sick to rule. But Queen Margrethe will remain Queen until her death I'm sure.

 

[MARG]

Somehow I don't see her retiring in the near future unless some unforseen health problem forces her to.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Never say never. Who would have ever thought the Pope to retire, or the Emperor of Japan, or the King of Spain, or the King of the Belgians? In no any of these examples there was a "tradition" of abdications (contrary to the Nassau-monarchies Netherlands and Luxembourg).

 

[tommy100]

The Queen herself has said its a job for life "until one falls of the perch" is how I think she put it. As such I don't see her abdicating. I think the option of her handing more and more over to F&M but remaining Queen is the most likely.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

She won't abdicate for sure until the 50the birthday celebration of CP Frederik are over, that would kind of spoil it.

I personally agree with Muhler, the Limbo situation is not good for an over 50 year old CP who is ready and will approach retirement age himself in the next decade. Many examples show that its better to hand over to somebody younger with more physical energy and, more important, who has a more modern mindset/feeling for the people in this rapidly changing world (as modern as an over 50 year old can be, compared to a nearly 80 year old), instead of clinging on to the title while the actual work is done by somebody else who doesn't have the final authority.

Waiting is good up to some point, then it gets more and more pointless, see an almost 70 year old heir in the UK.

 

[Winnie]

Never say never. Who would have ever thought the Pope to retire, or the Emperor of Japan, or the King of Spain, or the King of the Belgians? In no any of these examples there was a "tradition" of abdications (contrary to the Nassau-monarchies Netherlands and Luxembourg).

I certainly agree with that statement. None of us can look into the future and say for certain what will happen anywhere at anytime. Illness, deaths, riots, extreme weather such as floods, fires and tornados can change lives forever within minutes so to say never is not realistic. The Queen will do what and when her conscience deem necessary for her country and herself. I sincerely admire this woman and just feel deeply that she will make the proper decision for her country which she loves dearly.

 

[Muhler]

I wonder if Prince Nicolai will attend this years new years court now that he is 18 years old.

Anybody know?

According to the official guest list from the court he is not listed. Certainly not alongside the other DRF members.
But that may change. So we shall see tonight and hear the explanation I hope.

Because if he is not there, that means Joachim's children IMO are not destined to have a future role in the DRF, apart from attending the occasional family event.
In that case we will have to wait for Christian to turn eighteen before we will see a new face at the New Year Courts.

 

[Somebody]

Didn't Joachim indicate that his children would have to build up a life of their own?

Which is logical imo as there is no reason at all why they would fulfill an active royal role in the future (apart from attending some family events). The more interesting question to me would be what the roles will be of Christian's siblings. Will they expect all three of them to have an active royal role, or none, or only Isabella?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I think the trend in all royal families is to focus on the families of the current and the future monarchs (and their spouses). The rest of have incidental public roles. That will be the evolution going to 2030 or so I think.

DK
Margrethe & Henrik
Frederik & Mary
Christian & his future spouse

NO
Harald & Sonja
Haakon & Mette-Marit
Ingrid-Alexandra & her future pouse

SWE
Carl XVI Gustaf & Silvia
Victoria & Daniel
Estelle & her future spouse

Etc.

In Norway the brother of the future Queen (Sverre Magnus) is already no HRH anymore. In Spain the sisters of the new King are visibly sidelined. In the Netherlands the nephews and nieces of the King all have no royal title anymore (they are count/countess). Etc. This evolution is visible in all Houses.

 

[Blog Real]

The Royal Houses always give more prominence to the Kings and to the Princes Heirs. I believe that for example the Princess Isabella of Denmark or the Infanta Sofia of Spain or the sisters of Princess Catharina-Amalia of the Netherlands will stand out and should be present in important moments of their countries like state banquets and other events. But the heirs will always have more prominence and responsibilities.

 

[Muhler]

Well, since Nikolai was not present, I will say that he is not to have an official role with the DRF - or that he is unwilling to take on an official role.

I wonder if he will have a flag-day this year?
If he doesn't that is a further indication of him quietly leaving the DRF.
I wonder if he will renounce his title, perhaps when/if he marries?
That would be a logic consequence and also a good way to reduce the number of "full royals". In relation to the public it is not in the DRF interest to have too many royals around.

 

[Countessmeout]

Well, since Nikolai was not present, I will say that he is not to have an official role with the DRF - or that he is unwilling to take on an official role.

I wonder if he will have a flag-day this year?
If he doesn't that is a further indication of him quietly leaving the DRF.
I wonder if he will renounce his title, perhaps when/if he marries?
That would be a logic consequence and also a good way to reduce the number of "full royals". In relation to the public it is not in the DRF interest to have too many royals around.

I never got the need to 'renounce a title'. What does reducing the number do? Do you pay a cheque out to every 'full royal'? Honestly I don't get the difference between him being Prince Nikolai, teacher or Mr Nikolai, teacher. Is there something I miss?

Logical consequence to what? That as an 18 year old student, who is not heir to the throne, he didn't join a big formal event? We may see him in years to come. But there is no need to rush him since he wont be king.

I never get when people who understand royalty are so quick to push the 'renounce royals' less royals.....I get people who don't understand royals, who seem to think a smaller royal family means less cost (like we pay royals on an individual bases and kicking the rest out would be cheaper). But I don't get why this excited anyone else.

Sorry, it is meant as a genuine honest question. I just fail to see the benefit of reduced number.

Honestly if the royal family sees a benefit, then it should be done from birth. Like next generation, only kids of the heir get the prince title. Stripping current princes of their title seems to punish them for nothing.

 

[Muhler]

I never got the need to 'renounce a title'. What does reducing the number do? Do you pay a cheque out to every 'full royal'? Honestly I don't get the difference between him being Prince Nikolai, teacher or Mr Nikolai, teacher. Is there something I miss?

Logical consequence to what? That as an 18 year old student, who is not heir to the throne, he didn't join a big formal event? We may see him in years to come. But there is no need to rush him since he wont be king.

I never get when people who understand royalty are so quick to push the 'renounce royals' less royals.....I get people who don't understand royals, who seem to think a smaller royal family means less cost (like we pay royals on an individual bases and kicking the rest out would be cheaper). But I don't get why this excited anyone else.

Hey, back off a little!

I'm attempting to analyze the implications of Nikolai not being present. I may be wrong, I may be right, but these are the thoughts that go through my head right now.
If you are in doubt as to what I mean kindly ask me, rather than going on the attack and state what you think I mean. Thank you.

Back to Nikolai.

Just like Elisabeth not going in the front door so to speak is an indication of her role in the DRF, (Which is inactive.) Nikolai not being present is IMO also an indication of his future role.
It's pretty much besides the point that he is only eighteen and a high school student. He is old enough to become Rigsforstander. His childhood is over.

Okay, if Nikolai does not wish to have an active role within the DRF, but as a consequence will have a professional career and an ordinary life. The title of Prince to Denmark, may be a problem. He can't be a fully ordinary person with that title and he can't pursue whatever career he want's to, because some choices may be politically or even publicly too controversial. In other words; he will be more free without a royal title.
A title that is pretty empty anyway, since his wife is unlikely to become a princess.
So a logic consequence IMO would be for him (and his siblings) to renounce their royal titles and do a Märtha instead. He's Count of Montpezat so he won't be completely without a title.

Another thing is the public view. In 25 years from now we must expect both J&M as well as M&F's children begin to have children of their own. If these children are also given royal titles, we will in 35 years have heaps of royals all over the place!
The problem with royals is that we can't have too few, then we'll end up like Japan. But we can't have too many either. Royals have to be exclusive and they have to be seen as being relevant. So about 10-15 in total is IMO about the max number for a country the size of Denmark, and perhaps most monarchies.

 

[Countessmeout]

I didn't assume anything. I asked a question. Wow didn't think asking a question would get someone so bent out of shape

I honestly asked what the value of having less Danish princes is to the Danish people? You voiced that the public would see it as a benefit. I simply inquired what this implied benefit was. I assumed someone who is spouting it, would be able to clarify for me. I apologize for thinking you could answer.

But don't worry I wont bother asking questions again. Wouldn't want to twist your stick more.

 

[Muhler]

Well, sorry if I interpreted your tone as aggressive. That's all too easy on an international board.

I think I've tried to answer your questions as best I can. If I'm still not clear don't hesitate to ask me again.

I also think this board would be pretty dull if we didn't "spout" out, as you put it, something once in a while.

 

[Somebody]

Well, since Nikolai was not present, I will say that he is not to have an official role with the DRF - or that he is unwilling to take on an official role.

I wonder if he will have a flag-day this year?
If he doesn't that is a further indication of him quietly leaving the DRF.
I wonder if he will renounce his title, perhaps when/if he marries?
That would be a logic consequence and also a good way to reduce the number of "full royals". In relation to the public it is not in the DRF interest to have too many royals around.

Why would it be necessary for Nikolai to renounce his title? They already made him a HH instead of HRH at birth, so there is already a clear distinction between the core members and the more distant members within the family. And what would 'officially leaving' the family entail? That he no longer can be Rigsforstander (which he most likely never will be unless in a crisis situation when there is no other option available)?

The easier and more logical way IMO is to not have him (or his brothers) pass on his princely title but only his title as count of Monpezat to his children (which probably was what Margrethe intended when she created those titles). And probably make a general rule about the degree of kinship for membership of the DRF (or make an official distinction between the core family and the more distant family members - who are still in line to the throne).

In other countries (for example the Netherlands and Belgium; and a quite extreme example is Liechtenstein with I don't know how many princes without causing any issues it seems) we've seen that it doesn't present a problem that princes have normal careers. I am not saying that there never will never be a controversy, but that would occur with or without royal title just because of their relatively close family relation to the monarch, i.e., they will always be linked to their respective royal families.

 

[tommy100]

I suspect Nikolai would probably keep his title but use another name if he gets a "proper" i.e. normal job. maybe Nikolai Monpezat or Nikolai Frederiksborg (in fact wasn't it said in an article or interview he already went by a 'normal' name at school or on facebook?)

He can still legally and technically be Prince to Denmark but choose to use a different name, at the end of the day this late on dropping his title will do little anyway as people who know who he is will still know him.

I think with M&F having 4 children of their own there is likely little need for Nikolai and his siblings to take on a royal role in the future. Therefore they almost certainly will go about getting "normal jobs" even if keeping their royal status just in case.

 

[carina_a]

It doesn't seem like a problem to me, either.

Nikolai (and his siblings) is already distinguished from his cousins by his HH title. If he receives no apanage (either on his own or as a % from the monarch), and his future children bear no royal title, it will not create a 'big' royal family in the future. The royal family will still only be carried on by the crown prince and his heir.

The Danes have already figured it out IMO.

 

[Muhler]

(Answer to Somebody).

Not necessary perhaps, but IMO certainly simpler.
To the general public who are not that well versed in titles, there is no real distinction between HH and HRH. - Nikolai is Prince ergo he is a full royal. That also applies to segments of the press, especially when they want to...

Nikolai can very much be compared to Princess Elisabeth I think.
She's never married or had any children, so that "issue" ends with her. And she had a career in the Foreign Ministry, sometimes being deployed abroad. That's an acceptable and safe career for an "inactive" royal. Not controversial and out of sight and out of mind.
And if need be I suppose all Joachim's children can be parked away safely like that. Beforehand younger royals had a career in the military or like Elisabeth became a civil servant or even went into the church or in some cases had a manor somewhere. - Pretty much the traditional career choices for younger siblings of the upper class.
But that does put limitations on their choice of careers.
Nothing that is remotely political. Nothing that brings him into conflict with Danish interests or with segments of the population is acceptable, so that may rule out him being a top executive in a private business. And so on.

The problem is also that the DRF has to neutral in almost every aspect. That also includes inactive members. Otherwise there is a very good chance of that detracting from the monarchy itself. - That sentiment is admittedly sometimes bordering on being hysterical here in DK, but it's there.
It's easier and simpler to renounce the title and just be a count. For Nikolai himself it won't make that big a difference in relation to the DRF. He'll still be invited for family events and such, but not standing with his cousins. I think he'll survive that. It's not like he's being kicked out of a palace or anything like that.

So if Nikolai and his siblings wish to retain their titles as royals and have a career of their own it's better if they settle and work outside DK.

That I think applies to the Nordic monarchies. They have different traditions in the Benelux countries, and yet, even there there have been controversies and scandals when secondary royals have messed things up.

So again: If Nikolai is inactive, it would IMO be simpler for him to officially opt out of the royal roadshow.

We debated something similar in regards to Madeleine when she married. I think she would get much less criticism and be much more free (and so would her husband BTW) had she renounced her royal title when she married.
Now she is criticized for not being active enough, for not being in Sweden enough and so on...

 

[tommy100]

The difference with Madeleine is that all her other siblings live and work in Sweden, she does not do anywhere near as many duties as they do so comparisons are easier.

I don't see it being a problem for Nikolai unless one or other of his siblings goes out working for the DRF then there would be pressure on him to drop his royal title. Joachim's children can set the standard - to retain their HH and Prince/Princess titles (which aren't being passed down to their children anyway) and make their own living. At the end of the day would them not having a title really make a difference? People can and would google pretty quick and discover the truth and so many people in Denmark know Nikolai already it seems unnecessary to me to take the title from him.
Also bear in mind that for Margrethe, who is known to be quite "proud", her sister's children and grandchildren nearly all have titles or some sort so I think she'd happily let her own keep theirs.

 

[Muhler]

Oh yes, there is no danger of QMII or king Frederik stripping Joachim's children of their royal titles against their will. Unless they do something monumentally stupid of course, but that's another matter.

I'm merely think that Nikolai may himself renounce his status as an official royal. Doing a Märtha Louise and as such be more free career-wise.
And that I think might be a wise decision in the long run.