The Future of the Danish Monarchy

[Artemisia]

If Frederik should die before he becomes king, Mary will quietly lose her title and another will be created for her. Presumably princess of Denmark.

Thanks for the explanation, Muhler.
Does it mean that in Denmark a (royal) widow doesn't keep her titles until she re-marries?

 

[Muhler]

Thanks for the explanation, Muhler.
Does it mean that in Denmark a (royal) widow doesn't keep her titles until she re-marries?

Eeh, not sure what you mean.

If Frederik should die while he is still Crown Prince, Mary will lose her title as Crown Princess, because there can be only one crown princess. The heir or the wife of a crown prince.
She will still remain a princess though.
If Frederik should die while he is king, Mary will keep her title as queen.
Should Joachim die before our Marie, she will keep her title as Princess until she dies or remarry. What title she would get upon a new marriage would depend on the circumstances. That's entirely up to the monarch.

ELABORATION.

There are two things to take into consideration, should Frederik die while Mary is still Crown Princess.

Christian and his queen will formally outrank her, and so would his heir, because Mary is outside the Line of Succession.
However, family-wise Mary would be number two or three. Christian may be king but he will show proper respect for his mother, and so will his wife, even though she is queen and Mary is "only" a princess.
Christian's children would certainly be expected to publicly show proper respect to their grandmother.

That's why Henrik had his fit some years ago.
Henrik may consider himself the head of the family, but when it comes to state affairs he is outranked by his sons. The same thing with Mary as a widow.

 

[Madame Royale]

So if I understand correctly, Mary would not retain the title because Christian would succeed his father automatically and thus become Crown Prince?

I know in Britain there were a number of royal women who retained the title and distinction of 'Dowager Princess of Wales' when their husbands had pre-deceased them.

A) It was the title they maintained at the time of their spouses death and B) A Prince of Wales must be invested so until he is, he is not Prince of Wales and the title remains vacant. In the event of an investiture the former Princess of Wales then became the Dowager Princess of Wales much like a Duchess Consort will become a Dowager Duchess if her husband dies and her married son inherits the Dukedom. But of course we know things to be done differently across the way.

So being created HRH Princess Mary of Denmark in her own right would seem to be the only reasonable alternative. I shoud further wonder if it would then be considered appropriate for the mother of the King (upon her son's accession) to be known as 'HRH Princess Mary, The Princess Mother'.

 

[Muhler]

Christian will become crown prince on his eighteenth birthday, after having signed a pledge to obey the Constitution.
Until then Joachim (and most likely from time to time Mary as well) will formally be regent.

It's really for all eventualities. Should Denmark be invaded tomorrow and DRF fleeing and going into exile, Mary couldn't remain Crown Princess, because at some point Christian will become a crown prince and if he marries his wife will become crown princess, so if Mary was still Crown Princess, we would have a conflict on our hands. - Christian can't become an acknowledged king while he is in exile.

The concept of queen mother or mother to the king/prince, doesn't really exist in DK.
Mary may be referred to as "enkedronning" = dowager, as Queen Ingrid was from time to time, but it wouldn't be a title.

So Mary would simply be princess of Denmark, but she would be treated with the utmost respect.
My qualified guess is that she would stand between king Christian and the next crown prince/ss when greeting people and visiting dignitaries. A place of honour.

 

[Artemisia]

Eeh, not sure what you mean.

I guess I was referring to British system. If, for example, Prince William were to predecease his father and grandmother, his wife would continue to be known as (Dowager) Duchess of Cambridge. I had assumed that should Frederik predecease his mother, Mary would be known as the Dowager Crown Princess (unless she re-marries).

If Frederik should die while he is still Crown Prince, Mary will lose her title as Crown Princess, because there can be only one crown princess. The heir or the wife of a crown prince. She will still remain a princess though.
If Frederik should die while he is king, Mary will keep her title as queen.
Should Joachim die before our Marie, she will keep her title as Princess until she dies or remarry. What title she would get upon a new marriage would depend on the circumstances. That's entirely up to the monarch.

ELABORATION.

There are two things to take into consideration, should Frederik die while Mary is still Crown Princess.

Christian and his queen will formally outrank her, and so would his heir, because Mary is outside the Line of Succession.
However, family-wise Mary would be number two or three. Christian may be king but he will show proper respect for his mother, and so will his wife, even though she is queen and Mary is "only" a princess.
Christian's children would certainly be expected to publicly show proper respect to their grandmother.

That's why Henrik had his fit some years ago.
Henrik may consider himself the head of the family, but when it comes to state affairs he is outranked by his sons. The same thing with Mary as a widow.

You answered my questions nicely, thakns!

 

[Madame Royale]

Coming of age! Noted.

Would it not be plausible that if Christian were still a small child in the event of such an unlikely travesty, that Mary could retain the honourary use of Crown Princess until her son comes of age being that it was the principal title she held at the time of her husband's premature departure? Or would it be a matter of sorting out the issue of titles as quickly as possible to ensure a smooth transition for all involved?

 

[Muhler]

Coming of age! Noted.

Would it not be plausible that if Christian were still a small child in the event of such an unlikely travesty, that Mary could remain Crown Princess until her son comes of age being that it was the title she held at the time of her husband's premature departure? Or would it be a matter of sorting out the issue of titles out as quickly as possible?

That would ultimately be up to QMII.
But there would be no point in Mary keeping her title as Crown Princess, she would never become queen and it would make absolutely no difference in the way she is treated.
Whether Mary would get some sort of title as a consolation is an open question, but I doubt it. She can't be made dowager-princess "enke-prinsesse" that word doesn't even exist in Danish.
I can well imagine QMII having so much tact and grace that Mary would stand between the Regent Couple and Joachim when greeting people, as a sign of respect. - She is after all the mother to the next king.

Another what if is if Frederik and Joachim should both die at the same time in a planecrash next month. Well, QMII won't be around forever. Let's say she dies a year later.
Okay, Benedikte will step in, so let's kill her off as well.

What happens now is that a Rigsforstander will be appointed. The most likely candidate around is actually Mary, at least until Nikolai turns eighteen and he can step in as Rigsforstander. - After which Mary would still be the de facto regent for Christian.

My pleasure, Artemisia

 

[Madame Royale]

Certainly, the title of countess would not seem adequate given the nature of her position within the family so I don't even consider that a possibility. Plus, it would not have been the result of a divorce.

Thanks for the replies, Muhler.

 

[Flowerbed]

In regards to Christian's title if Frederik was dead, but Queen Margrethe still alive, wouldn't the title depend on QM's decision and not whether Christian was eighteen or not?

When Margrethe was heir to throne, she didn't have the title of Crown Princess, she was simply Princess Margrethe until her father died, but Frederik, to my knowledge, has been the Crown Prince ever since his grandfather died.

Prince Christian would undoubtedly get the title when he comes of age, but until then I'm assuming it's the monarch's decision.

 

[NGalitzine]

In regards to Christian's title if Frederik was dead, but Queen Margrethe still alive, wouldn't the title depend on QM's decision and not whether Christian was eighteen or not?

When Margrethe was heir to throne, she didn't have the title of Crown Princess, she was simply Princess Margrethe until her father died, but Frederik, to my knowledge, has been the Crown Prince ever since his grandfather died.

Prince Christian would undoubtedly get the title when he comes of age, but until then I'm assuming it's the monarch's decision.

Was Margrethe ever anything more than Throne Follower or heiress presumptive since she could still technically have been replaced as heir by a male?

 

[Muhler]

In regards to Christian's title if Frederik was dead, but Queen Margrethe still alive, wouldn't the title depend on QM's decision and not whether Christian was eighteen or not?

When Margrethe was heir to throne, she didn't have the title of Crown Princess, she was simply Princess Margrethe until her father died, but Frederik, to my knowledge, has been the Crown Prince ever since his grandfather died.

Prince Christian would undoubtedly get the title when he comes of age, but until then I'm assuming it's the monarch's decision.

I also thought until fairly recently that Frederik became Crown Prince when Frederik IX died. He didn't. Apparantly that's a common misconception.

Christian is the officially acknowledged heir and he will become crown prince when he turns eighteen and has signed the pledge to obey the Constitution. And is still a Lutheran and of sound mind and hasn't done anything criminal that makes him unworthy.
QMII (or king Frederik) cannot prevent that even if she wanted to. That is mentioned somewhere in the Law of Succession.
Only the Parliament (and Christian himself) can prevent him from becoming crown prince. - Simply by no longer acknowledging Christian as the heir. (But that's another big issue!!)

One of the defining characteristics of being a crown prince is that Christian will automatically step in as Regent when need be, everybody else are just appointed Rigsforstander by the Monarch (or the Parliament).
In theory QMII could appoint you as Rigsforstander before Joachim, but she cannot appoint you before Frederik.

 

[nwinther]

Was Margrethe ever anything more than Throne Follower or heiress presumptive since she could still technically have been replaced as heir by a male?

Margrethe was "Princess Margrethe, Heiress to the throne".

The reason she was not Crown Princess is because at the time, Crown Princess meant someone married to a Crown Prince (women couldn't rule (some say they still can't ) and despite the reform of the constitution in '53, this notion survived).

With the latest disaster of a law of succession, the first-born will rule and I suppose Crown Princess will be analogous to Crown Prince.

 

[polyesco]

If Henrik is still alive when Frederik becomes king, he would no longer be the prince consort, would he be a prince of Denmark?

would Henrik be outranked by Queen Mary ?

 

[Muhler]

If Henrik is still alive when Frederik becomes king, he would no longer be the prince consort, would he be a prince of Denmark?

would Henrik be outranked by Queen Mary ?

Well, QMII made him Prince Consort. I guess they would let him keep the title, for the relative few years he would have left. And he is known and addressed as Prince Henrik anyway.

In terms of title, Mary would certanly outrank PH. She would be a majesty, Henrik a mere royal highness.
In regards to state affairs, Mary would again outrank and come before PH, simply because she is a part of the regent couple.

Family wise it's more complicated. A king Frederik would both formally and officially be the head of the family. Whether PH would still consider himself the patriarch of the family remains to be seen, that would depend on his own psycology and whether Frederik puts his foot down if necessary.
He would still be treated with the utmost respect but he will have to get used to walking behind Frederik and Mary.

A dignified and likely solution would be for PH to retire to Chateau Cayz. Here he can be the patriach when the family comes visiting.

 

[camelot23ca]

I also thought until fairly recently that Frederik became Crown Prince when Frederik IX died. He didn't. Apparantly that's a common misconception.

Christian is the officially acknowledged heir and he will become crown prince when he turns eighteen and has signed the pledge to obey the Constitution. And is still a Lutheran and of sound mind and hasn't done anything criminal that makes him unworthy.
QMII (or king Frederik) cannot prevent that even if she wanted to. That is mentioned somewhere in the Law of Succession.
Only the Parliament (and Christian himself) can prevent him from becoming crown prince. - Simply by no longer acknowledging Christian as the heir. (But that's another big issue!!)

One of the defining characteristics of being a crown prince is that Christian will automatically step in as Regent when need be, everybody else are just appointed Rigsforstander by the Monarch (or the Parliament).
In theory QMII could appoint you as Rigsforstander before Joachim, but she cannot appoint you before Frederik.

I assumed Christian would become Crown Prince as soon as his father became monarch, as well - interesting. If Margrethe is still alive when Christian turns eighteen will he still sign the pledge at that time or will that happen only when his father is king?

 

[Danish girl]

Queen Ingrid was still called queen after her husband died. (She should have been enke-dronning really, but I've heard she did not like that title)
I see no reason Henrik could not keep his title. It's not likely there will be another Prince Consort anytime soon anyway. And making him only Prince Henrik might be a bit confusing when Little Henrik grows up.

 

[Muhler]

I assumed Christian would become Crown Prince as soon as his father became monarch, as well - interesting. If Margrethe is still alive when Christian turns eighteen will he still sign the pledge at that time or will that happen only when his father is king?

Christian will sign the pledge on his eighteenth birthday. He would in that case not become crown prince until QMII dies. In that second Frederik becomes king and Christian crown prince.

Once he has signed that pledge he can step in as Rigsforstander. - But not Regent, only the crown prince (the heir) can be Regent.

When you think about it, it makes sense that an heir doesn't become crown prince/ess until the eighteenth birthday. It gives the Parliament time to check him/her out.

There are quite a number of reasons to prevent Christian becoming crown prince:
- He could move to Sweden and become a Swedish citizen.
- He could murder someone or commit another serious crime.
- He could go mad.
- He could refuse to sign the pledge.
- He could publicly declare himself a paedophile, in which case there would probably be some reluctance to make him crown prince.
- He could become gravely ill and thereby be less capable of fulfilling his duties, in which case the best solution might be to bypass him.
- He could convert to Buddism.

If you look at Law of Succession, someone has really thought hard about covering all sorts of eventualities.
Should QMII be abducted by aliens tomorrow and taken to Saturn in a spaceship that is covered as well....

 

[FasterB]

That should not be considered a demotion. Mary will not be expected to curtsey to her son, that would be in conflict with the Ten Commandments.

I actually think that Mary would have to curtsey to her son. He is the king.
IIRC, then I saw Queen Ingrid curtsey to QMII.

Christian will become crown prince on his eighteenth birthday, after having signed a pledge to obey the Constitution.

Are you sure he won´t be CP in the moment his dad is king?
Jeg synes at have læst, at Frederik blev kronprins, da Kong Frederik den 9. døde... Nu har jeg skrevet til Hofmarskallatet og spurgt dem : )

 

[Muhler]

I actually think that Mary would have to curtsey to her son. He is the king.
IIRC, then I saw Queen Ingrid curtsey to QMII.


Are you sure he won´t be CP in the moment his dad is king?
Jeg synes at have læst, at Frederik blev kronprins, da Kong Frederik den 9. døde... Nu har jeg skrevet til Hofmarskallatet og spurgt dem : )

The keyword is expected.

ADDED: I simply cannot imagine Prince Henrik would bow to king Frederik.

I hope so, FasterB, because IRRC, you were the one who pointed it out to me almost two years ago. Twice in fact.

 

[FasterB]

The keyword is expected.

ADDED: I simply cannot imagine Prince Henrik would bow to king Frederik.

I hope so, FasterB, because IRRC, you were the one who pointed it out to me almost two years ago. Twice in fact.

Damn, am I that old, so I can´t remember that Well, I have written to the court and asked them - they must know it

 

[chelly]

Thanks for all that info. It sounds like someone was a bit OCD and a bit paranoid when they did the law of Succession. Aliens Really? I think you are pulling our legs Muhler. : )

So I am to understand that Denmark doesn't have a title like Queen Mother. (Like what happened with the Curren Q Elizabeth and her mother). So in case Frederick dies as King, Mary wouldn't become the King's Mother (I am not sure if England would even have that title) but the Dowager Princess. I think I got confused somewhere. Sorry about that.

 

[NGalitzine]

As a general rule one has to have been a Queen to become Queen Mother. To use a British example Queen Victoria's mother was HRH The Duchess of Kent. The Duchess of Kents husband was never King so she was never Queen Consort and so she could not become Queen Dowager or Queen Mother when Victoria came to the throne. Not sure how it would work in Denmark but expect it would be similar.

 

[Benedict XVI]

Does anyone know what kind of things the Danish have planned for there queens 40 years on the throne? I would assume that the monarchy is at one of it's highest approval ratings because of this. Does anyone know how popular the queen is at the moment?

 

[NGalitzine]

Does anyone know what kind of things the Danish have planned for there queens 40 years on the throne? I would assume that the monarchy is at one of it's highest approval ratings because of this. Does anyone know how popular the queen is at the moment?

I am sure there is a thread in the DRF board all about the celebrations that happened in January for her 40th anniversary on the throne.

 

[Artemisia]

There is a thread dedicated to Her Majesty's 40 years on the Throne - Queen Margrethe II’s 40th Jubilee Celebrations; January - February 2012

 

[Muhler]

Thanks for all that info. It sounds like someone was a bit OCD and a bit paranoid when they did the law of Succession. Aliens Really? I think you are pulling our legs Muhler. : )

So I am to understand that Denmark doesn't have a title like Queen Mother. (Like what happened with the Curren Q Elizabeth and her mother). So in case Frederick dies as King, Mary wouldn't become the King's Mother (I am not sure if England would even have that title) but the Dowager Princess. I think I got confused somewhere. Sorry about that.

Me? Pulling someone's legs? No, surely not.

But the eventuality of the monarch disappearing is covered. After a while the Parliament will simply decide that the crown prince/ess is now king/queen and move on.

I'm afraid I don't know what OCD is.

If you are confused I don't blame you. The title of dowager princess doesn't exist in DK. Mary will be a princess - but treated with the respect that befits the mother of the king.
(I translated parts of the Law of Succession some time back, I'll see if I can dig it up).

 

[Madame Royale]

OCD - Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

The title of dowager princess doesn't exist in DK

The title 'Counts of Monpezat' didn't exist in Denmark though either

Or is it a case of there being no literal translation?

Has there ever been any royal women in Denmark who's husband's pre-deceased them before they became sovereign? If so, what were the titles they were then granted? Or did they revert back to their former titles (assuming they were born of a royal or princely house).

 

[Muhler]

Here is the translation of parts of the Law of Succession.

Here is what the first (democratic) Constitution of 1849 has to say in regards to Regent/Rigsforstander.
It has to be said that back then monarchs didn't travel as much as now and with modern forms of communication and transport it's now very easy to get in touch with the monarch, when he is away from his realm. The Danish monarch had much more political power back then as well.
Rather than translating the text to "modern", I'll interprete and explain it instead.

§ 9. If the king, due to illness or because he is away, find that a Rigsforstander should be appointed. He will convene the Parliament and propose a bill. - That is no longer necessary. QMII just sign a document statiing that X will be Rigsforstander until she returns and then informs the government.

§10. If the king is unable to rule, the State Council (the government) will convene the Parliament. When the total Parliament, with 75 % of the votes that is casted, find it necessary it will appoint a Rigsforstander and if necessary a Guardian. - The Rigsforstander rules the country on behalf of the king, the Guardian look after the king's interests.

§11. Is there reason to fear that the Heir upon the death of the king will not be of legal age or for another reason unable to rule himself, a law will be passed which appoint a Rigsforstander and a guardianship is appointed by the king. - If the heir is under the age of 18, comatose, in rehab because he's a drugaddict, in captivity and so on.

§12. The Rigsforstander take the appropriate pledge/oath before the king and excerzise as long as he is Rigsforstander all rights by the monarch in the name of the king. He cannot propose changes in the order of succession however. - Nowadays they sign a pledge to obey the Constitution.

§13. When the king is dead, the Parliament will convene on the fourteenth day. - This is achaic legislation and presumably the Parliament approve that the succession is correct and that no coup d'etat has taken place.

§14. If there is no heir or the heir cannot lead the government at once, the State Council will head the government until the Parliament has decided what to do.
- The monarch is no longer head of the government. QMII is head of the State Council. The government is the udøvende magt = the executive power and act formally in the name of Queen Margrethe. The PM will run the store until the Parliament has decided what to do. Interestingly the first or one of the first things a newly appointed Rigsforstander has to do, is to approve himself.

§15. Is the heir or Rigsforstander absent, the convened Parliament will state a timeperiod in which he must return.
If the heir is not of legal age or for another reason unable to rule. And no Rigsforstander and Guardianship has been appointed, the convened Parliament appoints a Rigsforstander and authorise a Guardianship.
If there is no heir, the convened Parliament will elect a king and determine the future Order of Succession.
- Lets break this up in three parts:
A) Is used if Frederik is sitting in Australia with his arms crossed and sulking, because "I will not return home to be king"! Or if he is abducted by aliens or lost at sea.
B) Is used if Frederik and QMII dies before Christian has turned 18, or if he is mentally or physically unfit to become king.
C) If there is no (immediate) successor at all. - There is no "King Ralph" scenario here.

§ 9. Saafremt Kongen, enten formedelst Bortreise eller Svaghed, finder, at der bør udnævnes en Rigsforstander, sammenkalder han Rigsdagen og forelægger den et Lovforslag herom.
§ 10. Bliver Kongen ude af Stand til at regjere, sammenkalder Statsraadet Rigsdagen. Naar da den forenede Rigsdag med tre Fjerdedele af de afgivne Stemmer erkjender Nødvendigheden, udnævner den en Rigsforstander og anordner, om fornødent gjøres, et Formynderskab.
§ 11. Er der Anledning til at frygte for, at Thronfølgeren ved Kongens Død vil være umyndig eller af anden Grund ude af Stand til selv at regjere, bestemmes ved Lov en Rigsforstander, og et Formynderskab anordnes af Kongen. Rigsforstanderen kan ikke deeltage i Formynderskabet.
§ 12. Rigsforstanderen aflægger den for Kongen foreskrevne Eed og udøver, saalænge Rigsforstanderskabet varer, i Kongens Navn alle dennes Rettigheder; dog kan han ikke foreslaae Forandring af Arvefølgen.
§ 13. Naar Kongen er død, sammentræder 14de Dagen derefter uden Sammenkaldelse den sidstvalgte Rigsdag.
§ 14. Er der ingen Thronfølger, eller kan Thronfølgeren eller Rigsforstanderen ikke strax tiltræde Regjeringen, føres den af Statsraadet, indtil fornøden Bestemmelse er tagen af Rigsdagen.
§ 15. Er Thronfølgeren eller Rigsforstanderen fraværende, bestemmer den forenede Rigsdag, inden hvilken Tid han har at vende tilbage. Er Thronfølgeren umyndig, eller af anden Grund ikke i Stand til at regjere, uden at Rigsforstander og Formynderskab er bestemt, udnævner den forenede Rigsdag Rigsforstanderen og beskikker Formynderskabet. Er der ingen Thronfølger, vælger den forenede Rigsdag en Konge og fastsætter den fremtidige Arvefølge.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Is the title Crown Princess still considered an unsuitable title for a Princess who is heiress presumptive, or has there been some law to give it two meanings instead of just the 1?
Also if it was me, I would still, in private at least, delegate to my father no matter if I was Head of State.
I can just imagine my parents saying "I don't care what they call you...I brought u in this world and I'll take you out" : \

 

[Muhler]

OCD - Obsessive Compulsive Disorder


The title 'Counts of Monpezat' didn't exist in Denmark though either

Or is it a case of there being no literal translation?

Has there ever been any royal women in Denmark who's husband's pre-deceased them before they became sovereign? If so, what were the titles they were then granted? Or did they revert back to their former titles (assuming they were born of a royal or princely house).

The litteral translation would be enkeprinsesse, that word doesn't exist in Danish and it sounds pretty weird to my ear.
The word dowager queen = enkedronning does exist, but it's not an official title.

No doubt. I can't name anyone off hand however and I don't know what title they got, if any. We are going I don't know how many centuries back. At least to the age of Absolutism if not before. (I.e. pre 1670).