The Future of the Danish Monarchy

[Sternchen]

However mindboglingly tedious an event J. is attending appears to be, he always appear interested. There are no blank stares or sleepy eyes. That's good representation. That's what I expect from a man in his position.

That's what I would also expect from his wife, but somehow she is incapable of appearing interested, which must be like a slap in the face for some of the patronages she visits...

 

[Muhler]

That's what I would also expect from his wife, but somehow she is incapable of appearing interested, which must be like a slap in the face for some of the patronages she visits...

Touche.

But then she is Marie. And I think she can charm herself out of most situations.
- I predict we are going to see a lot of wonderful goofs from her. And many, myself included, are going to like her for that.

 

[ricarda]

where some apparantly find J to come off as arrogant in certain situations, I find Frederik to come off as fidgity, insecure, confused and even scared. Seeing him and Mary in Aalborg after the wedding, he seemed like a deer caught in the headlights when walking slong the spectators.With J, I get a feeling of a person who can grasp and manage a situation - even a stressful one... and J just seems more dignified than F.

IIRC this discussion started with a situation Joachim did not grasp and manage with dignity. Not to mention all the other situations he didn't manage too well. I don't think he did anything really awful but one tends to be less "forgiving" with arrogant people.
And Frederik managed a very difficult military training. To me that says enough about his strength and courage.

When it comes to popularity, sure it's nice for a powerful man to also be popular. But "man of the people" isn't what I'm looking up to in a king. If you look at Churchill, he was very popular. But he was also extremely arrogant and miles away from being a "man of the people" in the "folksy" sense. I think the right word is "dignity",.

Churchill was not a king, he was a politician and actually a leader who guided the people through difficult times. That's why he was popular.
Besides, he lived in a very different age. I doubt a politician like him would be possible nowadays (unless there is a 3rd world war). But I find it telling that you bring him up when discussing Joachim's arrogance.

I think Queen Margrethe has already proven that there is something in between folksyness and arrogance. Although not folksy she is a popular monarch and does not come across as arrogant. She has real dignity. IMO Joachim just has the facade.

Btw, here is a link to an interesting article about a poll which was conducted in March last year and whose results were compared with polls in 2004 and 2009. Question: How do the Danish royals perform their tasks? http://trondni.blogspot.com/2010/04/danish-royal-approval-ratings-mostly.html
Joachim and Marie don't seem to receive much approval.

 

[SweetRomanza]

That's what I would also expect from his wife, but somehow she is incapable of appearing interested, which must be like a slap in the face for some of the patronages she visits...

I saw a documentary on SBS a few weeks ago and they were showing Marie rehearsing a speech with much motivation. Could it be that sometimes, she appears less interested but it is because she wants to understand the language perfectly? I have friends who appear very serious/mad when they are trying to concentrate in a language.

 

[FasterB]

As for the Berleburg wedding, now that's going to be interesting! I doubt very much QMII will stay at home. And Benedikte will of course not be Regent, so that leaves Joachim and Frederik. - Unless, my pet-scenario: Mary will be regent.

Or perhaps something completely new: Princess Elizabeth

 

[ricarda]

Could it be that sometimes, she appears less interested but it is because she wants to understand the language perfectly?

Could be, when she is listening to Danish speeches.
But she also appeared desinterested when listening to French and English speeches.

 

[dazzling]

I saw a documentary on SBS a few weeks ago and they were showing Marie rehearsing a speech with much motivation. Could it be that sometimes, she appears less interested but it is because she wants to understand the language perfectly? I have friends who appear very serious/mad when they are trying to concentrate in a language.

I would assume it was Marie wanting to be perfect while saying her speech & since it is anew language to her she might not be perfect therefore she rehearsals over and over.
I don't find it weird or anything, as sometimes when I have a university presentation I would go over and over what I would have to say.

 

[Muhler]

I saw a documentary on SBS a few weeks ago and they were showing Marie rehearsing a speech with much motivation. Could it be that sometimes, she appears less interested but it is because she wants to understand the language perfectly? I have friends who appear very serious/mad when they are trying to concentrate in a language.

Perhaps.
But if I am to be honest I think it's because she is Marie - a bad hypocrite.
When you look at Marie's face, you get what she feels at that moment - for better or for worse. An honest face.
She may try to put up the right face, but she's not very good at it.
Even though I'm biased, I find it refreshing, genuine - honesty is not the worst thing in the world.

However, were Joachim, Frederik or Mary to do the same thing I would consider it somewhat rude, because they can put their faces in the right folds and they do it quite often.
A contradiction I know, but that's the charm with our Marie. - And who says all my arguments has to be objective?

 

[nwinther]

Hm, sometimes I think people take these things a bit too serious.

Let me make one thing absolutely clear, no one, no one at all should ever demand of me that my arguments should be consistent or not.
The world is not black and white, Nwinther.

Sometimes I look at the screen in bisbelief.
Marie and Joachim - and the rest of the DRF are human beings. And human beings have faults, repeat faults.
That doesn't make them bad persons, it doesn't make them incompetent and it doesn't make them less likable.
When reading some of the critique here, I often get the distinct feeling that some critizise a particular person for no other reason that they simply don't like that person.

Now, I happen to like Marie and I happen to respect Joachim. That doesn't mean that they don't have faults. Of course they do, just like any other human being and I aknowledge that.
I take a perverted delight in defending Joachim and Marie and praising them whenever I can, especially when they recieve, what I see as unnecessary critizism.

Try look at things in a more nuanced way.

"Lighten up, Francis" - Sgt. Hulka

Personally, I try and be objective (a contradiction by definition, I know) and consistent, meaning that if I critisize X for embarrasing themselves by doing something, then Y, doing exactly the same would also be subject to my critizism.

Now, some people revel in seeing J as arrogant. It reinforces their own perception of the man - confirming ones prejudices is everyones favourite. This means it's hard for J to do anything right. Same goes for Marie. If you percive her to be disinterested, then you'll always look for signs of disinterest or even make them up in your head (preferbly reinforced by a picture of her blinking... I mean, obviously so bored she fell asleep).

And as you say, if someone for some reason, cares for a person (let's say F), they'll forgive him anything, usually attributing things to "folksyness".

And sure, they all have faults. But objectivity and consistency demands that social dogma applies to Peter as well as to Paul.
To charicature - J should recieve the same critizism for drunk driving, as F would (and vice versa). It's not a valid argument in a debate to "like" someone more than anyone else - hence my appeal for consistency.

Keep your chin up.

 

[Muhler]

"Lighten up, Francis" - Sgt. Hulka

Personally, I try and be objective (a contradiction by definition, I know) and consistent, meaning that if I critisize X for embarrasing themselves by doing something, then Y, doing exactly the same would also be subject to my critizism.

Now, some people revel in seeing J as arrogant. It reinforces their own perception of the man - confirming ones prejudices is everyones favourite. This means it's hard for J to do anything right. Same goes for Marie. If you percive her to be disinterested, then you'll always look for signs of disinterest or even make them up in your head (preferbly reinforced by a picture of her blinking... I mean, obviously so bored she fell asleep).

And as you say, if someone for some reason, cares for a person (let's say F), they'll forgive him anything, usually attributing things to "folksyness".

And sure, they all have faults. But objectivity and consistency demands that social dogma applies to Peter as well as to Paul.
To charicature - J should recieve the same critizism for drunk driving, as F would (and vice versa). It's not a valid argument in a debate to "like" someone more than anyone else - hence my appeal for consistency.

Keep your chin up.

I see we are very much in agreement.

I've allowed myself to highlight a part of your reply.
However when it comes to royalty and indeed persons in general it's very difficult to be completely unbiased, as the subject in it's very nature is very much about what you believe in and how you feel about a certain person.
I think it's very much a valid point to state where you stand in regards to a particular person.

I have very often found myself in the situation where I have to explain why I critizise or point out a flaw in a person I respect or like.
That's why I sometimes have to go to extraordinary lengths to explain what I feel about certain persons.
It is actually possible to point out faults in persons you respect, yes, indeed it is.

That means that you should be able to point to mistakes someone makes. Be that Joachim, Marie, Frederik and also Mary (and I got some serious heat for that! ) and I will.
As long as we keep in mind that royals are humans as well.
They do have faults in their characters, they do have bad days and they do make mistakes.

 

[auntie]

A picture is a split second in time and so many perceptions we have of people are a result of what we see in that picture. Someone may seem loving, haughty or anything else depending on if he is photogenic or not...

 

[Sternchen]

Unfortunately there is more than one photo during a splitsecond of Marie being bored on official capacity and in Paris.
Prinsesse Marie røvkeder sig | www.bt.dk

 

[Muhler]

Unfortunately there is more than one photo during a splitsecond of Marie being bored on official capacity and in Paris.
Prinsesse Marie røvkeder sig | www.bt.dk

In all fairness, the suits sitting next to our Marie don't look like they are about start tap-dancing on the table either.

 

[Sternchen]

But at least they are looking at the person talking

 

[Muhler]

But at least they are looking at the person talking

In the vain hope he or she'll stop talking? Soon? Please? - Whereas Marie is clearly absorbing every word, tasting the eloquence of the speaker, savouring the sentences.

When you come up with a reply, you can write it on a Christmas card...

 

[Kataryn]

In all fairness, the suits sitting next to our Marie don't look like they are about start tap-dancing on the table either.

Spot on, Muhler! One really could guess that the people there had an impotant and not very funny topic to discuss. Probably marie makes a very appropriate face for that situation as on the other pics where she meets and greets people she is her own friendly and kind self.

 

[Sternchen]

In the vain hope he or she'll stop talking? Soon? Please? - Whereas Marie is clearly absorbing every word, tasting the elequence of the speaker, savouring the sentences.

When you come up with a reply, you can write it on a Christmas card...

Absorbing every word? More like drifting off into lala-land Sorry, no Christmas card, as it is hard to find right now

 

[Muhler]

Absorbing every word? More like drifting off into lala-land Sorry, no Christmas card, as it is hard to find right now

Yeees, you should know, lieber Sternchen. - Sorry, that was simply too tempting.

But as Kataryn pointed out, when among wolves, you howl like a wolf.
And that was, naturally, what la charmant Marie was doing.

 

[Sternchen]

Yeees, you should know, lieber Sternchen. - Sorry, that was simply too tempting.

But as Kataryn pointed out, when among wolves, you howl like a wolf.
And that was, naturally, what la charmant Marie was doing.

Yeah right Btw. it is "liebes Sternchen"

 

[JessRulz]

Can we please move on? We can go round and round for days discussing whether Marie was bored, happy, listening intently, etc. and it serves no purpose.

Any further posts on the matter will be removed at moderator discretion.

 

[camelot23ca]

[edit-JessRulz]

I am actually not very interested in Joachim and don't have the time to discuss him.
The only interesting question for me is: why do some (few) think he would make a superior king than Frederik?
I said Joachim didn't make a good impression on me. I never said he isn' t doing his homework. Probably he would be competent as a king.
But superior to Frederik?

I think it's valid if people just like Joachim more than they do Frederik but in terms of thinking he'd be a better king? That, to me, is a very difficult call to make. As a follower of theDRF I think I have a fairly good idea of what Frederik will be like as king because he and his family are already dealing with a fairly similar situation as what they'll be confronted with when Queen Margrethe is gone. Not so much in terms of the events that they do, although their day to day responsibilities have been steadily increasing over the last several years, but more in terms of things like the amount of attention that's focused on them, the significance that's given to everything they say and do and the expectations that the public has of them.
To me, the wild card of how someone would be as monarch or crown prince is how they'd deal with the big psychological component that goes with it. How would Joachim deal if the press decided to criticize his racing as being too frivolous and too dangerous a pursuit for the future king? How would he deal with the increased focus on and criticism of his wife, (I'm guessing the inattention and bored looks at official events would seem a tad less charming if they were coming from the future queen)? I really don't know.

 

[Muhler]

To me, the wild card of how someone would be as monarch or crown prince is how they'd deal with the big psychological component that goes with it. How would Joachim deal if the press decided to criticize his racing as being too frivolous and too dangerous a pursuit for the future king? How would he deal with the increased focus on and criticism of his wife, (I'm guessing the inattention and bored looks at official events would seem a tad less charming if they were coming from the future queen)? I really don't know.

If the tables were turned? That's a huge what if!

It has occured many times before in history that a younger son, suddenly woke up one day realizing he's going to be king and exclaimed: "What happened"?!?
And with absolutely no wish or desire to become king.
It happened in Britain in the 30's and to some extent here in DK with the then Princess Margrethe.
Amazingly most of them adapt and grow into the role and actually do surprisingly well.
What else can you do when you are in a situation you are forced into?

It's ironic. Frederik is in many ways "the second son" who has accepted, adapted and slowly grown into his role as future king, rather than Joachim.
Our Marie is probably the one, who will be in for the rudest awakening, because as you pointed out, the demands and focus is suddenly on a very different level.
But who knows? Perhaps she too can grow into her new role?

I once read a definition of the best possible head of state: Someone who needs to be carried kicking and screaming into the office, but once there will do his very best. - I don't quite agree, but it nevertheless contains some truth.

 

[Sternchen]

Muhler, didn't you once say, that Marie is the right one for the spare, but wouldn't be the right one for the heir? (IIRC you didn't mean that she wasn't the right one for Fred, but more in the sense that she wouldn't be what you would expect of a CPss?)

 

[Muhler]

Muhler, didn't you once say, that Marie is the right one for the spare, but wouldn't be the right one for the heir? (IIRC you didn't mean that she wasn't the right one for Fred, but more in the sense that she wouldn't be what you would expect of a CPss?)

That's right.
Marie is a great secondary royal, in the sense that she has more space to move in. There are not the same expectations, not the same focus on her and she may find it easier to get away with mistakes and so on.
In other words she can allow herself the luxury to be a more relaxed princess who can have fun on the job.
A CP has more obligations and duties to fullfill.
Mary and Marie fill different roles. Much more different that Joachim and Frederik. Partly because both of them are born and bred as royals, but also because Joachim could actually end up becoming king. (It would be another matter if he was the third child of QMII).

Mary and Marie are in different leagues.
I will not rule out that Marie would make a good queen, in her own way. She may very well, but she'll also have to work hard to get there and it won't be easy. Queen Marie would not be the Marie we see now, not at all.
With Mary I'm confident she'll make a good queen.

Do you see the difference?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I dont think Marie would have married Joachim if he was meant to become King in the first place. She is not the type of woman who would want to cope with all the hassle as she is rather the Lady of the Manor type, easy life, having to get through the odd engagement is ok but nothing more.

Alexandra would have been brilliant as CP.

Frederik did a brilliant choice too with Mary, who is willing to take on all the hassle because like most female commoners who marry into royalty for the top job, she has a strong need for attention and recognition. If there is a good future for the Danish monarchy under King Fred, Mary will have a good share in it.

On an intellectual level I think its better not to be too clever because in the long run the job can become very dull and boring, some of the CPs are already visibly bored after only a few years. I am saying this because many posters seem to think that Marie is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I agree but it doesnt matter for the job. By the way, I think Marys intellectual background and alledged "career" is quite overrated too but thats another topic.

I believe all you need in the couple combination is a strong character to remain who you are, a way with people and a good common sense and you are on a winning streak, as we can see with Maxima & WA in the Netherlands. Mary & Fred cant quite catch up but in comparison with Joachim & Marie I see them miles ahead and although I am not Danish I believe thats a sentiment that is being shared with most of the Danes as well.

 

[Muhler]

I
On an intellectual level I think its better not to be too clever because in the long run the job can become very dull and boring, some of the CPs are already visibly bored after only a few years.

You are almost quoting a former Danish PM, Jens Otto Kragh, who once said about Princess Margrethe: "I hear she's an intellectual. A pity". He considered it a waste of talent.

I don't agree at all.
QMII has her flaws of course, but she has also made some very sound and even wise decisions. They cannot be attributed to advisers alone, they are after all changed from time to time.
Her intellect has certainly been an advantage in many ways, even in something as seemingly trivial as small-talk. Everybody can learn small-talk, but there is small-talk and there is intelligent small-talk. - And it does leave an impression.

I believe we are very fortunate in having an intelligent Queen right now, with the added focus on royals in our day and age.
I also believe that a monarch ought to have as good and as broad an education as is possible.

If we only have a state of head who is occasionally wheeled around in a carriage ad who waves from a distant balcony, when he isn't delivering a rehearsed speech, then we can settle with a less intelligent and less educated monarch. But that's not how it is nowadays and it's certainly not the way to go, if monarchy is to have a future. Not in my world.

 

[Iluvbertie]

When you say that the monarch should have as broad an education as possible what would you do if the heir is lacking in the ability to learn?

Many young people simply can't learn and struggle to even manage to read a simple passage, let alone comprehend it.

What happens though when that person is the heir?

 

[Sternchen]

I don't know it Marie would have married Joachim if he would be the heir.
I don't agree that Marie doesn't have a strong need for attention and recognition. IMO she has it, same as Alex, and this is why the role as second wife of the spare is good for her, she gets the attention and recognition, but doesn't have to do a lot/work hard for it. After all she has been and still is giving regular interviews to the danish media. Even when being approached on the street she stops and gives interviews. She wouldn't do that if she didn't like it

I think also Marie's choice of job is quiet significant, although owning a Bachelor, she worked as an assistant to her stepfather. Which doesn't necessarily mean that she isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. More that she is willing to let others take care of her, while she (in theorie) would be able to take care of herself. Oh well, but why bother, when it is much easier to let others take care of all the unpleasantnesses...

Paraphrasing Muhler, Marie is in it for the fun, but I doubt that she is giving the future of the monarchy, and how it can be adapted and transitioned a lot of thought.

When you say that the monarch should have as broad an education as possible what would you do if the heir is lacking in the ability to learn?

Many young people simply can't learn and struggle to even manage to read a simple passage, let alone comprehend it.

What happens though when that person is the heir?

Do you mean a short attention span, or an illness like dislexia which Victoria of Sweden has?

 

[Muhler]

When you say that the monarch should have as broad an education as possible what would you do if the heir is lacking in the ability to learn?

Many young people simply can't learn and struggle to even manage to read a simple passage, let alone comprehend it.

What happens though when that person is the heir?

That's one of the major problems with a monarchy.

The best thing to do I think, is to be open about it and aknowledge that say a younger sister is better at dealing with a number of jobs than the monarch himself.
It is after all a royal family, or a royal team if you will.

One who is obviously ill suited to become a monarch, may be quietly bypassed. That happened here in DK in the 50's, when Margrethe was selected as the successor instead and there wasn't a public uproar over that.

 

[camelot23ca]

On an intellectual level I think its better not to be too clever because in the long run the job can become very dull and boring, some of the CPs are already visibly bored after only a few years. I am saying this because many posters seem to think that Marie is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I agree but it doesnt matter for the job. By the way, I think Marys intellectual background and alledged "career" is quite overrated too but thats another topic.

I believe all you need in the couple combination is a strong character to remain who you are, a way with people and a good common sense and you are on a winning streak, as we can see with Maxima & WA in the Netherlands. Mary & Fred cant quite catch up but in comparison with Joachim & Marie I see them miles ahead and although I am not Danish I believe thats a sentiment that is being shared with most of the Danes as well.

I think that many jobs, even those that look stimulating and exciting to outsiders, become dull and boring to those doing them after awhile. I don't think someone needs to have high intelligence to be a successful royal but I don't see it ever being a drawback, either. An intelligent royal could do a lot for their country over time and they'd also have more opportunities than most to feed their own intellectual curiosity. For instance Queen Margrethe, I believe, is interested in archaeology. Obviously she couldn't run off and be an archaeologist but over the years I imagine she's had many opportunities to pursue this interest that most people wouldn't.