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  #141  
Old 01-18-2011, 07:47 PM
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He seems to be ready to go sailing and have fun other than that...I don't think he is mature enough yet.
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  #142  
Old 01-18-2011, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Chimene View Post
Muhler, If I may ask, what is Fredrik's problem exactly? After reading almost 3 pages, all I gather is that he's not as articulate as Mary. So the question for me is: Is he not articulate because he's not smart or he's uncomfortable discussing certain subjects? You seems to think he does fine as far as discussing his family, and since he does not stutter or has a lisp, so is his intelligence in question? Academics are often long-winded, but you seem to reject that argument, but I can't tell for myself because I don't speak the language. What is at the root of his "problem"?
From what I understand (and Muhler, please correct me if I'm wrong). It isn't that CP Frederik is not intelligent. He has a problem being able to communicate his thoughts coherently so that they make sense.

Muhler and others will explain further...
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  #143  
Old 01-18-2011, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Terri Terri View Post
From what I understand (and Muhler, please correct me if I'm wrong). It isn't that CP Frederik is not intelligent. He has a problem being able to communicate his thoughts coherently so that they make sense.
With his level of education, why is it that he can't express himself coherently, and if it's not his intelligence then what is it? Even if he's not a skillful public speaker, he should at least make sense. There is a disconnect, and I don't understand what's hindering him.
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  #144  
Old 01-18-2011, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Chimene View Post
Muhler, If I may ask, what is Fredrik's problem exactly? After reading almost 3 pages, all I gather is that he's not as articulate as Mary. So the question for me is: Is he not articulate because he's not smart or he's uncomfortable discussing certain subjects? You seems to think he does fine as far as discussing his family, and since he does not stutter or have a lisp, so is his intelligence in question? Academics are often long-winded, but you seem to reject that argument, but I can't tell for myself because I don't speak the language. What is at the root of his "problem"?
There is nothing wrong with Frederik's intelligence or his general education.
He has in my opinion a problem translating his thoughts into a language that makes sense for everybody else.
It's a classic: I know what I mean, when I say something. But that may not be obvious to everybody else.
I think he knows exactly what he means and also what he wants to say, he just can't figure out how to say it, how to get it across. So he ends up using strange metaphores, not finishing his sentences and mumbling.
It's in many ways like watching someone who stutters or has a brain damage, they struggle with getting their message across.
But once he is in calm surroundings, is relaxed and have time to phrase his words into coherent sentences, then things go much better.
It's when people are looking at him, things go really bad.

That's why Gator's suggestion that he has a sort of impediment makes more and more sense to me.

If one of my children spoke like he did, I would seriously consider getting experts to have a look at them.

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Originally Posted by Terri Terri View Post
By the way Muhler, what do we know about his new chief of court Christian Schønau outside of his biographical information? Is he the kind of person who isn't afraid to tell CP Frederik "Your Highness, you need media training!" IMO, the CP Couple need staff around them, who not only respect them, but also are not afraid to give them a kick in the a..s if necessary!
I don't know much. Except that he is a brilliant civil servant, who most likely will end up heading a ministerial department. - He is still new and he may also think of his future career so will he have the guts to stand up to Frederik?
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  #145  
Old 01-18-2011, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Chimene View Post
With his level of education, why is it that he can't express himself coherently, and if it's not his intelligence then what is it? Even if he's not a skillful public speaker, he should at least make sense. There is a disconnect, and I don't understand what's hindering him.
I don't speak Danish...so I will let the Danish posters explain to you!

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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
There is nothing wrong with Frederik's intelligence or his general education.

He has in my opinion a problem translating his thoughts into a language that makes sense for everybody else.
It's a classic: I know what I mean, when I say something. But that may not be obvious to everybody else.
I think he knows exactly what he means and also what he wants to say, he just can't figure out how to say it, how to get it across. So he ends up using strange metaphores, not finishing his sentences and mumbling.
It's in many ways like watching someone who stutters or has a brain damage, they struggle with getting their message across.
But once he is in calm surroundings, is relaxed and have time to phrase his words into coherent sentences, then things go much better.
It's when people are looking at him, things go really bad.

That's why Gator's suggestion that he has a sort of impediment makes more and more sense to me.

If one of my children spoke like he did, I would seriously consider getting experts to have a look at them.
That sounds like fear of public speaking, which I have!!!!

Quote:
I don't know much. Except that he is a brilliant civil servant, who most likely will end up heading a ministerial department. - He is still new and he may also think of his future career so will he have the guts to stand up to Frederik?
Thanks! I didn't think of that perspective!
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  #146  
Old 01-18-2011, 08:41 PM
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I'd say if Frederik was diagnoced with some impediment and that was made public, he would be showered in praises and sympathy and his popularity would go off the scale.

The same thing would happen, albeit on a slightly less scale, if he were to go public and say: "Admittedly, I suck at expressing myself, not least when I'm in the public glare. But I'm working on it".

Or "I tremble inside and I dread press conferences. I would rather wrestle a polar bear. But I work on over coming that".

Self-acknowledgement is admirable but it can be hard to swallow your pride and admit, to yourself first and then everybody else that you have a problem.

Well, soon time to go home. Goodnight.
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  #147  
Old 01-18-2011, 09:24 PM
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I'd say if Frederik was diagnoced with some impediment and that was made public, he would be showered in praises and sympathy and his popularity would go off the scale.

The same thing would happen, albeit on a slightly less scale, if he were to go public and say: "Admittedly, I suck at expressing myself, not least when I'm in the public glare. But I'm working on it".

Or "I tremble inside and I dread press conferences. I would rather wrestle a polar bear. But I work on over coming that".
I think the problem is not so much an impediment but rather an intense fear and dislike of public speaking. I don't understand much Danish, but this means when I've watched Frederik speak I've focused almost entirely on how he's saying things, as opposed to what he's saying, and it seems pretty obvious that he finds it excruciating. The problem with a fear like that is the only way to get better is to do what he hates, (speaking), as much as possible, over and over again, realistically expecting only a gradual improvement over months or years. It's not like he does a speech this week, does one next week and then the third one there's going to be noticeable improvement. There would be a significant period of time where things wouldn't change at all and the only way to get to a point of improvement would be to keep at it. That would be a very difficult thing for anyone to go through, especially someone like Frederik, whose position is prominent enough that he knows many people will be listening, (always ready to criticize), when he speaks.

I think lack of intelligence is unlikely, if for no other reason then he's had a number of intelligent people, (including those who have no particular interest in protecting him or the monarchy), comment favourably on dealing with him in this regard. Also he's got some decent educational credentials which, regardless of his royal status, he wouldn't have been able to get if he were of below average intelligence. On the contrary, I think part of Frederik's problem with the speaking issue may be that he's very well able to compensate for that particular weakness with a host of other strengths.
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  #148  
Old 01-18-2011, 09:33 PM
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On the contrary, I think part of Frederik's problem with the speaking issue may be that he's very well able to compensate for that particular weakness with a host of other strengths.
That was a very interesting and informative post camelot. What struck me most is your last phrase...because I think that this is exactly what's happening.
Isn't it ironic that it would be those compensations which are hindering the resolution of his greatest weakness?
I think Muhler is right, there needs to be someone who can directly tell CP Frederik that his communication skills suck and he needs help!
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  #149  
Old 01-18-2011, 11:00 PM
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That was a very interesting and informative post camelot. What struck me most is your last phrase...because I think that this is exactly what's happening.
Isn't it ironic that it would be those compensations which are hindering the resolution of his greatest weakness?
Thank you for your kind words, terri terri! I don't know much about the details of what kind of work would go into helping someone like Frederik, but I do have a school friend whose job requires him to do a significant amount of public speaking and who is also not naturally good at it. He worked with a coach for quite a long time, and I remember the work being quite intense and lengthy from the way he spoke of it, and he really has improved. But I also remember him saying it was horrible while he was going through it, in that this coach basically had him speaking at every possible opportunity and it took awhile to see results.
Frederik doesn't seem the sort to surround himself with yes-men and he's mentioned that Mary is a perfectionist and doesn't hesitate to criticize him if she feels it's needed. But I think in addition to that, if he really wants to get better, he needs a relationship with someone like my friend's 'coach' who will give him practical tips on how to get better and will also make sure he practices as much as possible.
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  #150  
Old 01-18-2011, 11:55 PM
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Thanks, Muhler, Terri, and Camelot for your responses. Fear of public speaking makes perfect sense, and I agree with some coaching and a lot of practice he should be able to overcome this.
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  #151  
Old 01-19-2011, 01:35 AM
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On paper Frederik looks like he would definately be suitable, but when I look at videos of him especially when you compare him to other Crown Princes he does seem to lack public speaking skills. I agree with some earlier posters that Joachim is much better at speaking and seems more comfortable as person in the public eye. IMO the best choice he made was picking Mary as a wife, she I feel can pick up the "slack" or make up for some his short comings.
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  #152  
Old 01-19-2011, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by camelot23ca View Post
I think lack of intelligence is unlikely, if for no other reason then he's had a number of intelligent people, (including those who have no particular interest in protecting him or the monarchy), comment favourably on dealing with him in this regard. Also he's got some decent educational credentials which, regardless of his royal status, he wouldn't have been able to get if he were of below average intelligence.
Agree, you don't make a masters in political science if you're a complete moron, nor do you complete the Danish equivalent of the 'navy seals' training!

We (the Danes) don't know for certain whether CP Frederik has a speech coach - it's not being advertised by the royal court - IMO his public speaking has improved, but he's definetely not there yet!

I hope that he gets sound advice from those around him! CP Mary can offer her loving support, but the actual speech training must be taken care of by a indigenious Dane for obvious reasons!

Nor do we know what caused the problem in the first place, but considering his long- time reluctance - if not refusal - to
accept his lot in life I for one believe, that this is a deeply rooted psychological problem which takes a long time to overcome,
and a loving wife and stable family life is just the beginning of a long healing proces.

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  #153  
Old 01-19-2011, 07:42 AM
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The same thing would happen, albeit on a slightly less scale, if he were to go public and say: "Admittedly, I suck at expressing myself, not least when I'm in the public glare. But I'm working on it".

Or "I tremble inside and I dread press conferences. I would rather wrestle a polar bear. But I work on over coming that".

Self-acknowledgement is admirable but it can be hard to swallow your pride and admit, to yourself first and then everybody else that you have a problem.
But it already was made public that he is getting help in that respect. So, he already admitted that he has a problem with expressing himself and he is working on it.

Perhaps the fact that he - according to the entire Danish media - expressed himself very well at the latest press-meeting is a result of that?
Besides, Frederik is totally able to give a speech that really touches peoples' hearts (I am thinking of Queen Margrethe's birthday last year).

So, although I think that he really could improve in that respect, I also think you are painting the picture darker than it is. Just as you are painting Joachim's picture brighter than it is (I actually know quite a few people who think that his way of talking is pompous and sometimes old-fashioned and problably the reason why he comes across as arrogant.)
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  #154  
Old 01-19-2011, 08:08 AM
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But it already was made public that he is getting help in that respect. So, he already admitted that he has a problem with expressing himself and he is working on it.

Perhaps the fact that he - according to the entire Danish media - expressed himself very well at the latest press-meeting is a result of that?
Besides, Frederik is totally able to give a speech that really touches peoples' hearts (I am thinking of Queen Margrethe's birthday last year).

So, although I think that he really could improve in that respect, I also think you are painting the picture darker than it is. Just as you are painting Joachim's picture brighter than it is (I actually know quite a few people who think that his way of talking is pompous and sometimes old-fashioned and problably the reason why he comes across as arrogant.)
I do agree with all you are saying.

I didn't know that CP Frederik had been receiving guidance.

I thought it was just employing a spokes person for the court.
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  #155  
Old 01-19-2011, 08:22 AM
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I distinctly remember an article about that (in connection with the IOC candidature).
But I must admit I don't remember the details and whether this was official or just a media report.
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  #156  
Old 01-19-2011, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Chimene View Post
Muhler, If I may ask, what is Fredrik's problem exactly? After reading almost 3 pages, all I gather is that he's not as articulate as Mary. So the question for me is: Is he not articulate because he's not smart or he's uncomfortable discussing certain subjects? You seems to think he does fine as far as discussing his family, and since he does not stutter or have a lisp, so is his intelligence in question? Academics are often long-winded, but you seem to reject that argument, but I can't tell for myself because I don't speak the language. What is at the root of his "problem"?
(...)

CP Frederik has especially when discussing sensible subject as IOC been very academic in his answers.

As far as I know CP Haakon has not been allowed to join IOC.

I can easely recognise his academic speach pattern when political issues or other sensible issues has to be avoided.

And actually he managed to talk his way into IOC.

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He seems to be ready to go sailing and have fun other than that...I don't think he is mature enough yet.
Well you try to join the navy seal - I doubt the average man survives this military corps

And yes he looks young but then againg he is not smoking
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  #157  
Old 01-19-2011, 08:29 AM
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That was a very interesting and informative post camelot. What struck me most is your last phrase...because I think that this is exactly what's happening.
Isn't it ironic that it would be those compensations which are hindering the resolution of his greatest weakness?
I think Muhler is right, there needs to be someone who can directly tell CP Frederik that his communication skills suck and he needs help!
Thanks camelot, that is exaclty my opinion.
i guess than the people around frederik, when looking at the overall picture, are reasonably satified with it, and this could make it more difficult for them to tell him "your public speaking is terrible", because they are awarem and he is aware, that the people love him all the same.
probably mary is more perfectionist than he is, i think frederik himself has said so, so i think she can push him to improve and practise.

as for this being a case of fear of public speaking, i really don't know, bc if you watch at the videos for the queen's 70th birthday, you'll notice that he does not appear overanxious. he is not paler or nervous while speaking, his voice is not uncertain... and THAT certainly was the case of a live speech to be delivered in front of a while room crowded with royal peers and a whole nation watching it on the telly: the perfect occasion for panicking, stumbling etc.
in my opinion maybe it was mary who felt more anxious for her husband's sake, that would explain her enthusiast reaction after the speech.
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  #158  
Old 01-19-2011, 08:37 AM
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But it already was made public that he is getting help in that respect. So, he already admitted that he has a problem with expressing himself and he is working on it.

Perhaps the fact that he - according to the entire Danish media - expressed himself very well at the latest press-meeting is a result of that?
Besides, Frederik is totally able to give a speech that really touches peoples' hearts (I am thinking of Queen Margrethe's birthday last year).

So, although I think that he really could improve in that respect, I also think you are painting the picture darker than it is. Just as you are painting Joachim's picture brighter than it is (I actually know quite a few people who think that his way of talking is pompous and sometimes old-fashioned and problably the reason why he comes across as arrogant.)
Let's keep Joachim out of this for a moment.

Frederik did recieve help in connection with him becoming a member of the IOC. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, it was more focused on what he should say, rather than on how he should say it.
At around that time Frederik gave a speech in co-operation with the Ministry of Culture, if I remember correctly. That was amateur work! He was placed in front of a camera and stood there and delievered a speech and he was by no means impressive. - You can't blame Frederik for that one, his advisors failed him miserably. But what it does show, in my eyes, is that he is not getting the correct professional help.
In order to get help, you must be told that you need help, or realise it yourself. It's no help if those near to you haven't got the heart to tell you the truth, because they think you are nice or they don't have a problem understanding you personally.

It wasn't just the press who were impressed with Frederik at Rigshospitalet the day the twins came. So was I.
He can deliver, as I have stated several times. At Rigshospitalet he was relaxed and I doubt very much he even for a second thought about what impression he would make.
But something happens when he is being interviewed, when he seems to be aware of the situation. That's when things can and do go really bad.

Frederik is not a good speaker, fair enough. He mumbles, trip over the words, fair enough. These are bad habits and he can work on that and practise, practise a lot!
Because there is one little problem: Frederik is not 25 any more. He is a mature middleaged man in his early 40's, who has been preparing for his role all his life.
It doesn't do anymore to say: "Oh, he'll improve over time. It'll get better". When? When he is 50? 55? 60?
It's not going to be easier for him. Especially not since he and Mary are taking over more and more duties. Especially not since he could be king tomorrow.

I've been thinking about what you said, ricarda, perhaps I do paint a darker picture of Frederik. Perhaps my opinion is reinforced each time I see him not doing so well, because I pay special attention to that.
The problem is that I'm far from being the only one.
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:42 AM
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Thanks camelot, that is exaclty my opinion.
i guess than the people around frederik, when looking at the overall picture, are reasonably satified with it, and this could make it more difficult for them to tell him "your public speaking is terrible", because they are awarem and he is aware, that the people love him all the same.
probably mary is more perfectionist than he is, i think frederik himself has said so, so i think she can push him to improve and practise.

as for this being a case of fear of public speaking, i really don't know, bc if you watch at the videos for the queen's 70th birthday, you'll notice that he does not appear overanxious. he is not paler or nervous while speaking, his voice is not uncertain... and THAT certainly was the case of a live speech to be delivered in front of a while room crowded with royal peers and a whole nation watching it on the telly: the perfect occasion for panicking, stumbling etc.
in my opinion maybe it was mary who felt more anxious for her husband's sake, that would explain her enthusiast reaction after the speech.
I think CP Marys reaction was that it was a very moving and a very personal speech.

He mentions QMII interest in especially the navy seal corps and very touching the warm relationship between QMII and CP Mary.

Billed-Bladet - Her er hele Frederiks tale til sin mor
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:51 AM
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(...)

At no time have we maligned Frederik's character, insulted his intelligence or make him out to be stupid. We have acknowledged that he gives the impression of being a warm, genuine person with the rare gift of being folksy, having the common touch and the ability to put people at ease, despite being born a royal. Those are his gifts!

We are concentrating on one aspect only...his lack of communication skills sometimes. CP Frederik is going to be King...all people are asking for and hoping for...is that he can be the best King he can be, and his communication skills are an integral part of that.

I hope that the happy family life that he and Mary have created will go a long way in addressing his difficulties with that aspect of his role.
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