The Future of the Danish Monarchy

[Vesper1987]

On paper Frederik looks like he would definately be suitable, but when I look at videos of him especially when you compare him to other Crown Princes he does seem to lack public speaking skills. I agree with some earlier posters that Joachim is much better at speaking and seems more comfortable as person in the public eye. IMO the best choice he made was picking Mary as a wife, she I feel can pick up the "slack" or make up for some his short comings.

 

[Viv]

I think lack of intelligence is unlikely, if for no other reason then he's had a number of intelligent people, (including those who have no particular interest in protecting him or the monarchy), comment favourably on dealing with him in this regard. Also he's got some decent educational credentials which, regardless of his royal status, he wouldn't have been able to get if he were of below average intelligence.

Agree, you don't make a masters in political science if you're a complete moron, nor do you complete the Danish equivalent of the 'navy seals' training!

We (the Danes) don't know for certain whether CP Frederik has a speech coach - it's not being advertised by the royal court - IMO his public speaking has improved, but he's definetely not there yet!

I hope that he gets sound advice from those around him! CP Mary can offer her loving support, but the actual speech training must be taken care of by a indigenious Dane for obvious reasons!

Nor do we know what caused the problem in the first place, but considering his long- time reluctance - if not refusal - to
accept his lot in life I for one believe, that this is a deeply rooted psychological problem which takes a long time to overcome,
and a loving wife and stable family life is just the beginning of a long healing proces.

Viv

 

[ricarda]

The same thing would happen, albeit on a slightly less scale, if he were to go public and say: "Admittedly, I suck at expressing myself, not least when I'm in the public glare. But I'm working on it".

Or "I tremble inside and I dread press conferences. I would rather wrestle a polar bear. But I work on over coming that".

Self-acknowledgement is admirable but it can be hard to swallow your pride and admit, to yourself first and then everybody else that you have a problem.

But it already was made public that he is getting help in that respect. So, he already admitted that he has a problem with expressing himself and he is working on it.

Perhaps the fact that he - according to the entire Danish media - expressed himself very well at the latest press-meeting is a result of that?
Besides, Frederik is totally able to give a speech that really touches peoples' hearts (I am thinking of Queen Margrethe's birthday last year).

So, although I think that he really could improve in that respect, I also think you are painting the picture darker than it is. Just as you are painting Joachim's picture brighter than it is (I actually know quite a few people who think that his way of talking is pompous and sometimes old-fashioned and problably the reason why he comes across as arrogant.)

 

[Benedikte]

But it already was made public that he is getting help in that respect. So, he already admitted that he has a problem with expressing himself and he is working on it.

Perhaps the fact that he - according to the entire Danish media - expressed himself very well at the latest press-meeting is a result of that?
Besides, Frederik is totally able to give a speech that really touches peoples' hearts (I am thinking of Queen Margrethe's birthday last year).

So, although I think that he really could improve in that respect, I also think you are painting the picture darker than it is. Just as you are painting Joachim's picture brighter than it is (I actually know quite a few people who think that his way of talking is pompous and sometimes old-fashioned and problably the reason why he comes across as arrogant.)

I do agree with all you are saying.

I didn't know that CP Frederik had been receiving guidance.

I thought it was just employing a spokes person for the court.

 

[ricarda]

I distinctly remember an article about that (in connection with the IOC candidature).
But I must admit I don't remember the details and whether this was official or just a media report.

 

[Benedikte]

Muhler, If I may ask, what is Fredrik's problem exactly? After reading almost 3 pages, all I gather is that he's not as articulate as Mary. So the question for me is: Is he not articulate because he's not smart or he's uncomfortable discussing certain subjects? You seems to think he does fine as far as discussing his family, and since he does not stutter or have a lisp, so is his intelligence in question? Academics are often long-winded, but you seem to reject that argument, but I can't tell for myself because I don't speak the language. What is at the root of his "problem"?

(...)

CP Frederik has especially when discussing sensible subject as IOC been very academic in his answers.

As far as I know CP Haakon has not been allowed to join IOC.

I can easely recognise his academic speach pattern when political issues or other sensible issues has to be avoided.

And actually he managed to talk his way into IOC.

He seems to be ready to go sailing and have fun other than that...I don't think he is mature enough yet.

Well you try to join the navy seal - I doubt the average man survives this military corps

And yes he looks young but then againg he is not smoking

 

[eliz]

That was a very interesting and informative post camelot. What struck me most is your last phrase...because I think that this is exactly what's happening.
Isn't it ironic that it would be those compensations which are hindering the resolution of his greatest weakness?
I think Muhler is right, there needs to be someone who can directly tell CP Frederik that his communication skills suck and he needs help!

Thanks camelot, that is exaclty my opinion.
i guess than the people around frederik, when looking at the overall picture, are reasonably satified with it, and this could make it more difficult for them to tell him "your public speaking is terrible", because they are awarem and he is aware, that the people love him all the same.
probably mary is more perfectionist than he is, i think frederik himself has said so, so i think she can push him to improve and practise.

as for this being a case of fear of public speaking, i really don't know, bc if you watch at the videos for the queen's 70th birthday, you'll notice that he does not appear overanxious. he is not paler or nervous while speaking, his voice is not uncertain... and THAT certainly was the case of a live speech to be delivered in front of a while room crowded with royal peers and a whole nation watching it on the telly: the perfect occasion for panicking, stumbling etc.
in my opinion maybe it was mary who felt more anxious for her husband's sake, that would explain her enthusiast reaction after the speech.

 

[Muhler]

But it already was made public that he is getting help in that respect. So, he already admitted that he has a problem with expressing himself and he is working on it.

Perhaps the fact that he - according to the entire Danish media - expressed himself very well at the latest press-meeting is a result of that?
Besides, Frederik is totally able to give a speech that really touches peoples' hearts (I am thinking of Queen Margrethe's birthday last year).

So, although I think that he really could improve in that respect, I also think you are painting the picture darker than it is. Just as you are painting Joachim's picture brighter than it is (I actually know quite a few people who think that his way of talking is pompous and sometimes old-fashioned and problably the reason why he comes across as arrogant.)

Let's keep Joachim out of this for a moment.

Frederik did recieve help in connection with him becoming a member of the IOC. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, it was more focused on what he should say, rather than on how he should say it.
At around that time Frederik gave a speech in co-operation with the Ministry of Culture, if I remember correctly. That was amateur work! He was placed in front of a camera and stood there and delievered a speech and he was by no means impressive. - You can't blame Frederik for that one, his advisors failed him miserably. But what it does show, in my eyes, is that he is not getting the correct professional help.
In order to get help, you must be told that you need help, or realise it yourself. It's no help if those near to you haven't got the heart to tell you the truth, because they think you are nice or they don't have a problem understanding you personally.

It wasn't just the press who were impressed with Frederik at Rigshospitalet the day the twins came. So was I.
He can deliver, as I have stated several times. At Rigshospitalet he was relaxed and I doubt very much he even for a second thought about what impression he would make.
But something happens when he is being interviewed, when he seems to be aware of the situation. That's when things can and do go really bad.

Frederik is not a good speaker, fair enough. He mumbles, trip over the words, fair enough. These are bad habits and he can work on that and practise, practise a lot!
Because there is one little problem: Frederik is not 25 any more. He is a mature middleaged man in his early 40's, who has been preparing for his role all his life.
It doesn't do anymore to say: "Oh, he'll improve over time. It'll get better". When? When he is 50? 55? 60?
It's not going to be easier for him. Especially not since he and Mary are taking over more and more duties. Especially not since he could be king tomorrow.

I've been thinking about what you said, ricarda, perhaps I do paint a darker picture of Frederik. Perhaps my opinion is reinforced each time I see him not doing so well, because I pay special attention to that.
The problem is that I'm far from being the only one.

 

[Benedikte]

Thanks camelot, that is exaclty my opinion.
i guess than the people around frederik, when looking at the overall picture, are reasonably satified with it, and this could make it more difficult for them to tell him "your public speaking is terrible", because they are awarem and he is aware, that the people love him all the same.
probably mary is more perfectionist than he is, i think frederik himself has said so, so i think she can push him to improve and practise.

as for this being a case of fear of public speaking, i really don't know, bc if you watch at the videos for the queen's 70th birthday, you'll notice that he does not appear overanxious. he is not paler or nervous while speaking, his voice is not uncertain... and THAT certainly was the case of a live speech to be delivered in front of a while room crowded with royal peers and a whole nation watching it on the telly: the perfect occasion for panicking, stumbling etc.
in my opinion maybe it was mary who felt more anxious for her husband's sake, that would explain her enthusiast reaction after the speech.

I think CP Marys reaction was that it was a very moving and a very personal speech.

He mentions QMII interest in especially the navy seal corps and very touching the warm relationship between QMII and CP Mary.

Billed-Bladet - Her er hele Frederiks tale til sin mor

 

[Terri Terri]

(...)

At no time have we maligned Frederik's character, insulted his intelligence or make him out to be stupid. We have acknowledged that he gives the impression of being a warm, genuine person with the rare gift of being folksy, having the common touch and the ability to put people at ease, despite being born a royal. Those are his gifts!

We are concentrating on one aspect only...his lack of communication skills sometimes. CP Frederik is going to be King...all people are asking for and hoping for...is that he can be the best King he can be, and his communication skills are an integral part of that.

I hope that the happy family life that he and Mary have created will go a long way in addressing his difficulties with that aspect of his role.

 

[eliz]

I think CP Marys reaction was that it was a very moving and a very personal speech.

He mentions QMII interest in especially the navy seal corps and very touching the warm relationship between QMII and CP Mary.

Billed-Bladet - Her er hele Frederiks tale til sin mor

Yes, I had read the English translation of the speech, of course Mary must have been delighted at Frederik's words,
I was just speculating that, if Frederik's is a case of fear of public speaking, maybe she had shared his axiety in the previous days or his uncertainties about what to say etc, and weeing that in that partciular occasion everyhing turned out perfectly well maybe it was an extra factor which prompted her to go and kiss him

 

[Benedikte]

Yes, I had read the English translation of the speech, of course Mary must have been delighted at Frederik's words,
I was just speculating that, if Frederik's is a case of fear of public speaking, maybe she had shared his axiety in the previous days or his uncertainties about what to say etc, and weeing that in that partciular occasion everyhing turned out perfectly well maybe it was an extra factor which prompted her to go and kiss him

Well I'm not aware of CP Frederik having trouble speaking.

He is only academic when avoiding political issues.

And he talked himself into the IOC where as CP Haakon didn't

 

[marfre]

I was getting the impression that all was lost, until I read a couple of posts that made me think that perhaps Frederik might survive.

I think Frederik has many qualties that imo means he will be a good and respected King, his connection with the people be they young or not so young, he cares and is not afraid to show it. He also has a warm heart according to his mother, and is a wonderful family man by what we can see.
We have just been through a major flood and are still dealing with the crisis in many different and difficult ways, it was noted by all and I can say without a shadow of a doubt, it was not the best dressed or the best speaker that helped us deal with this at the major point of the crisis, it was the person that showed caring and connected with the people and was not afraid to show a bit of emotion that helped give people the courage to go on. This IMO is where Frederik holds his own and would do a far better job than most.

 

[Benedikte]

I was getting the impression that all was lost, until I read a couple of posts that made me think that perhaps Frederik might survive.

I think Frederik has many qualties that imo means he will be a good and respected King, his connection with the people be they young or not so young, he cares and is not afraid to show it. He also has a warm heart according to his mother, and is a wonderful family man by what we can see.
We have just been through a major flood and are still dealing with the crisis in many different and difficult ways, it was noted by all and I can say without a shadow of a doubt, it was not the best dressed or the best speaker that helped us deal with this at the major point of the crisis, it was the person that showed caring and connected with the people and was not afraid to show a bit of emotion that helped give people the courage to go on. This IMO is where Frederik holds his own and would do a far better job than most.

That is the truth

And in Denmark we are watching the flood every night in the news. All danes feel for you I'm sure.

 

[UserDane]

(...)


About Frederik's speaking abilities, well, yes Muhler you are definitely more pessimistic than I am. While I do recognize that Frederik is not likely to bring home the annual oratorial award (still, that speech for mom's 70th was pretty darn good ) it is, IMHO, not a major obstacle for his becoming a great king; and I believe that he will one day. His people communcation skills are far superior to eg. his mother's and I find that hugely important. To be considered a relevant king to the Danes he has to have these connecting abililties which I believe that he has. His younger brother does not have that connection among the Danes, IMO, in spite of his greater public speaking ease. They are two very different persons but the dynamics will work for them, and I think that Joachim is very loyal to his brother and will be able to complement him in many positive ways. I'm not a 'fan' of Joachim, but I do recognize his abilities and respect them.

I agree that Frederik's IOC speech was not the highlight of his oratorial career, however, he was at that point officially sailing the politically shark infested waters and I think that all newcomers to that organization are grilled about the history of the IOC by a host of extremely critical parties which may understandably leave the newcomer momentarily speechless!

It's been interesting catching up on this thread (marfre, I loved your post)

 

[Viv]

His younger brother does not have that connection among the Danes, IMO, in spite of his greater public speaking ease. )

I'll second that , if it makes any difference to anyone! I remember when many Danes (the late 80s early 90s) wished that Joachim were the heir apparent! Now I'm grateful that he isn't! He's probably a nice person privately, but what my antennae pick up in particular is the occasional contempt of hoi polloi (the ´people´) occasionally shown by his mother, when she's caught off guard.

I agree that Frederik's IOC speech was not the highlight of his oratorial career, however, he was at that point officially sailing the politically shark infested waters and I think that all newcomers to that organization are grilled about the history of the IOC by a host of extremely critical parties which may understandably leave the newcomer momentarily speechless!

Speech problems aside, is the IOC- membership a problem for the Danish heir only? What about the other royals in IOC? Have they met similar criticism in their countries??

Viv

 

[Somersby Tulip]

I'll second that , if it makes any difference to anyone! I remember when many Danes (the late 80s early 90s) wished that Joachim were the heir apparent! Now I'm grateful that he isn't! He's probably a nice person privately, but what my antennae pick up in particular is the occasional contempt of hoi polloi (the ´people´) occasionally shown by his mother, when she's caught off guard.

I think he makes a good heir apparant. The comment about public speakingn was made more than a few years ago and he has improved greatly and is more than confident. I believe he initially stumbled in a small way to step forward into a group of royals and aristocrats among some politicians though was quite to contribute. Someone was asked of their opinion and merely pointed out he was unused to public speaking. He did a fine job and is much suited to the role.

The truth may be that others decided not to speak publicily and he should be applauded for doing so.

Speech problems aside, is the IOC- membership a problem for the Danish heir only? What about the other royals in IOC? Have they met similar criticism in their countries??

Viv

I think his mother is jocular in herself about the public not haughty and is quite proud of herself for the work she does for the public though they may not see all. She is a very nice woman and the public respond well to her as she is quite happy to be around people.

 

[Jacknch]

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Frederik is suitable to be King of Denmark one day....afterall he is the Crown Prince!

I think it is unfair to compare Frederik and Joachim in any way other than as brothers as they are both different people and have different roles in their lives.

 

[Muhler]

About Frederik's speaking abilities, well, yes Muhler you are definitely more pessimistic than I am. While I do recognize that Frederik is not likely to bring home the annual oratorial award (still, that speech for mom's 70th was pretty darn good ) it is, IMHO, not a major obstacle for his becoming a great king; and I believe that he will one day. His people communcation skills are far superior to eg. his mother's and I find that hugely important. To be considered a relevant king to the Danes he has to have these connecting abililties which I believe that he has. His younger brother does not have that connection among the Danes, IMO, in spite of his greater public speaking ease. They are two very different persons but the dynamics will work for them, and I think that Joachim is very loyal to his brother and will be able to complement him in many positive ways. I'm not a 'fan' of Joachim, but I do recognize his abilities and respect them.

I agree that Frederik's IOC speech was not the highlight of his oratorial career, however, he was at that point officially sailing the politically shark infested waters and I think that all newcomers to that organization are grilled about the history of the IOC by a host of extremely critical parties which may understandably leave the newcomer momentarily speechless!

I sincerely hope you are right, UserDane. Nevertheless, if you are right and Frederik does not have an impediment of some sort, but it can all be contributed to nervousness and insecurity, I still hope and believe he should work on it, and work hard, harder than now.
Because he will get some heat for this in the future.

Well, I've been wrong before. I were among those who was very much against Frederik joining the IOC. I was certain he would end up in trouble for that.
So far, I've been proven wrong. May I continue being wrong...

(...)

 

[camelot23ca]

For me the public speaking issue is only one relatively small piece of the puzzle when it comes to the question of Frederik's suitability. I think it's something he should work on and try to improve but I don't think it's something that in and of itself will make or break Frederik as king.

For me, the best indication of Frederik being an overall suitable King is that he's been an overall suitable Crown Prince. Becoming the monarch will be a big symbolic change, and possibly a big psychological change for Frederik himself, but I think the day to day activities will build on what he's been increasingly doing over the past couple years. Frederik is the second most experienced person in Denmark when it comes to the dealings of the monarch. I think sometimes the more mundane aspects of being the King, (or Queen), take a backseat in discussions like this to issues of personality, but I think on a practical level being a monarch is much like any other job in that there are a lot of skills that need to be mastered - public meetings and speaking, yes, but also issues of protocol, how a meeting with the government is conducted, how the royal household and staff is organized and how they liaise with the government and other segments of society, how to deal with paperwork, (is there any job that doesn't have paperwork? ), etc. These are the sorts of things we don't hear about as long as they run well, but I bet if you asked Queen Margrethe what she spends most of her working day doing she'd mention things like the above.

 

[isabelle 53]

I have always thought that a country needs a king worthy, strong and responsible. Prince Frederick seems so fragile. Certain pictures of him show a whiny "little boy" who seems completely lost, but it's only my opinion

 

[queen dolly]

There is no doubt in my mind that CP Frederik has the suitabilithy to be(a good) King.
He has the edukation and he has the feeling for the people, and not to forget the love and suport of his wife.

 

[iceflower]

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[Jacknch]

I've had a further thought about the suitability of Frederik as a king and what I want to add is that his suitability (and the suitability of other heirs to thrones) is dependent upon how the people of his country see him. Obviously there are technical quailties required of a monarch including the actual ability reign and carry out the various duties required of a monarch, but for me it is important to recognise the more personal and character qualities. Frederik seems a friendly, jolly sort of person, likeable, kind and caring to his family and friends, fun loving and serious when it is required of him. He has been brought up to respect the history and institutions of his country and works to building good relations between himself and the people of Denmark (as far as I can see anyway). He doesn't appear to look down upon anyone and doesn't seem to take advantage of his position. I know of no major scandals about him and he doesn't appear to have done anything detrimental to his country. So as far as I can see he's good for the job! Of-course all these atributes I have mentioned can easily apply to his brother Joachim, but of course, Joachim is not the crown prince!

 

[Benedikte]

I have always thought that a country needs a king worthy, strong and responsible. Prince Frederick seems so fragile. Certain pictures of him show a whiny "little boy" who seems completely lost, but it's only my opinion

Well IMO CP Frederik has proven his worth. He has achieved a master degree and on top of that the most difficult military education.

The danish love him because he is down to earth. The danes don't like arrogant people.

Perhaps that is a special trademark for Denmark. Arrogance is the worst of sins.

 

[isabelle 53]

Well IMO CP Frederik has proven his worth. He has achieved a master degree and on top of that the most difficult military education.

The danish love him because he is down to earth. The danes don't like arrogant people.

Perhaps that is a special trademark for Denmark. Arrogance is the worst of sins.

I'm not saying that Fred is bad, I find him fragile, and I can't imagine he has the stature to be a king, but I hope I am wrong

A king can be proud of what he represents, be aware of his value, without despising others, he may have a great ability, a certain class without being dismissive. And since you always talk of arrogance, being dignified and responsible has nothing to do with arrogance. People who are very well-educated can give a sense of pride and coldness, but I rather think they have great respect for others, and they know they can't get away with anything. Don't confuse dignity with insolence. Dignity is the prerogative of kings, insolence is for fools

 

[Benedikte]

I'm not saying that Fred is bad, I find him fragile, and I can't imagine he has the stature to be a king, but I hope I am wrong

A king can be proud of what he represents, be aware of his value, without despising others, he may have a great ability, a certain class without being dismissive. And since you always talk of arrogance, being dignified and responsible has nothing to do with arrogance. People who are very well-educated can give a sense of pride and coldness, but I rather think they have great respect for others, and they know they can't get away with anything. Don't confuse dignity with insolence. Dignity is the prerogative of kings, insolence is for fools

Well You are very frank about the danish crown prince.

He is well educated but doesn't appear cold because he is a real warmhearted person and that what the danes likes

You are welcome to Mitterand or that other president you have at the moment

Danes don't like arrogant people. Perhaps you like dignified people - but I don't think the danes are big lovers of dignity

(...)

 

[isabelle 53]

Well You are very frank about the danish crown prince.

He is well educated but doesn't appear cold because he is a real warmhearted person and that what the danes likes

You are welcome to Mitterand or that other president you have at the moment

Danes don't like arrogant people. Perhaps you like dignified people - but I don't think the danes are big lovers of dignity

(...)

A man can make mistakes once in his life if he is very unhappy and misunderstood, even if he is a prince, this does not detract in any way his skills

 

[inglebug]

I'd like to pose a question for all the Danes out there:

Is there currently, or has there ever been any question, within Denmark, as to Frederik's suitability for the kingship?

I know of reports that he's struggled with his own self-doubt in the past, but has there ever been a time when people have not respected him?

I ask simply because I struggle to see the relevance of this thread. Frederik is the Crown Prince, through the sheer accident of birth he is next in line to the throne. It is not a job where one can simply apply and be interviewed for the position. You are simply born to it. Therefore, logically, he is eminently suitable to be King whether he has certain qualities or not.

 

[Viv]

I'd like to pose a question for all the Danes out there:
Is there currently, or has there ever been any question, within Denmark, as to Frederik's suitability for the kingship?.

On an official level, like in a hearing? No.
Behind the scenes? Possibly yes. I would find it very strange if it wasn't a case for concern at the royal court at a time!
Then there's the media and the voxpops: His suitability has often been discussed in the media, not always in a fair and objective manner, especially by the tabloids. IMO no one really questions his suitability after his marriage, but his public speaking skills - or the lack hereof - is still being commented upon. And somehow - whether it's fair or not, these two issues get intertwined.

I know of reports that he's struggled with his own self-doubt in the past, but has there ever been a time when people have not respected him?.

It's down to semantics, IMO and depends on what you mean by 'respect in this context! Many Danes have been duly worried about his suitablity and some still are. Is it lack of respect or is it a genuine concern?

I ask simply because I struggle to see the relevance of this thread. Frederik is the Crown Prince, through the sheer accident of birth he is next in line to the throne. It is not a job where one can simply apply and be interviewed for the position. You are simply born to it. Therefore, logically, he is eminently suitable to be King whether he has certain qualities or not.

Well, CP Frederik was born to the job! Some day he will inherit the throne, period! And yet it't not that simple, especially when the heir made it clear that he didn't like the future laid out for him and especially by showing that he didn't like what came with it, duties, press conferences and etc. That triggers a discussion about suitablity, not at least in this time and age, where the authority of old institutions isn't taken for granted!
For future reference the popularity and the relevance of a Royal Family will rest on the abilities of the individual members.

BTW This discussion has also popped up regularly in the UK (Prince of Wales).

All IMO of course, other Danes might think otherwise!
Viv