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  #81  
Old 01-17-2011, 11:56 AM
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So let's talk about CP Frederik. As far as I'm concerned, CP Frederik alone bears the responsibility of determining what kind of King he will be. His wife is there to support him but she's not going to be the reigning monarch.
At some point, all excuses are moot. You can't blame his parents...his upbringing...his wife. There comes a time in every adult's life where we all have to take responsibility for the path ahead in our lives.
I adore CP Frederik but I don't see him with rose-colored glasses or put him on a pedestle...because the only way from there is downwards.
His communication needs work and it is an integral part of his job...its not enough to be folksy or have the common touch. And yes, when his mother dies, that will be the true test of his new reign, as it will be for all the monarchs-in-waiting.
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  #82  
Old 01-17-2011, 11:56 AM
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Muhler-I agree with you regarding the way that Frederik speaks. I neither speak nor understand Danish, but when I listen to other Danes speak (including Queen Margrethe), I notice a big difference from the speech patterns of Frederik. It seems like he can't organize his thoughts in a way conducive to smooth speech. I believe that you mentioned this previously, Muhler. I wonder if perhaps this could be a learning disability? I wonder if, like when treating dyslexia, there is a way to learn to organize thoughts and to process information in a more organized way? It is interesting to learn that he did go through training in public speaking. I wonder if perhaps it was ineffective because it didn't help him to organize his thoughts enough? I'd be curious to know what type of training he received. (yes, I'm a teacher-that's why I'm wondering about his training and background)
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  #83  
Old 01-17-2011, 12:10 PM
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I think we overestimate how critical times we live in. There have been times previously where the relevance and the future of the monarchy as an institution has been questioned even more.
Margrethe II became queen during the 70s which to me seemed to have been a much more radical time; I was a child when she became queen and I had very royalist grandparents who all agreed that she probably 'did not have what it takes'.
She has proved them wrong; she did have what it takes. She just did it differently from her father. Frederik will do things differently - and Christian after him, so the discussion of suitability as a king/queen will be a recurring one for many generations.

Grevinnan, I enjoy reading your posts and take on things. I just don't understand why it has to end by implying that CPss Mary is a Prada addict. It really detracts from the quality of an otherwise excellent post (and of course I am one of those who believe that unless some impartial body does a stocktaking of all CPss' wardrobes etc. and see their clothing outlays it's sensible to be careful with ones prejudices. Just my opinion of course).
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Old 01-17-2011, 12:15 PM
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I wonder if it has to do with the context of the situation. For example, according to some previous posts, he seemed more relaxed, witty, and charming when speaking about the new twins and that he is better when he is unaware of cameras/media.

I know two people who are INCREDIBLE singers, but they could never make a living at it because their comfort level stops at church and small, intimate karaoke-type performances. To sing the national anthem in an auditorium or stadium or perform in front of a large crowd terrifies them.

Maybe that is part of the communication challenges Fred may face. Due to his military training (with which I am not completely familiar) I assume he has been in some sort of leadership role. Because in the military usually one must be precise, maybe he is direct and effective in that setting. I haven't seen any footage of him in a command position, so maybe he is very capable and comfortable in that arena. Perhaps if he treated his role more like one in the military he would come across differently?
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Old 01-17-2011, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Gatos View Post
Muhler-I agree with you regarding the way that Frederik speaks. I neither speak nor understand Danish, but when I listen to other Danes speak (including Queen Margrethe), I notice a big difference from the speech patterns of Frederik. It seems like he can't organize his thoughts in a way conducive to smooth speech. I believe that you mentioned this previously, Muhler. I wonder if perhaps this could be a learning disability?
That's a very good point.

I must confess I know very little about such (I hesitate to call it a disabillity) a condition. Perhaps someone knows more?

If, repeat if, Frederik were to suffer from such a condition (provided it exisits) that would turn things around 180 degrees. Not least if he went public.

The main theroy I personally lean to right now is that Frederik hasn't met someone who is willing to knock him hard on the head: "Frederik, you suck at expressing yourself. Shut up, sit down and listen"!
Who is going to say that? Mary, who loves him? His friends, who go into a defensive mode and form cordon around him? A civil servant who has been given the task of advising him - the future king?
From biographies and from people talking about Frederik, I have the distinct impression that he is a very stubborn man, in the will-strong sense. He will not quit!
That got him through the training as a Frogman and through the Sirius trek. Joachim has told in an anecdote that the mere suggestion that something is not possible is a sure way to lure Frederik into doing.
Maybe this same strongwillled facet of his character, prevents him from taking a step back and say: "This doesn't work. Perhaps I should try another approach? Perhaps I need help"?
I know, I know, this is pure speculation.

I really like your point, Gatos, that would explain so much. It's absolutely worth considering.
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  #86  
Old 01-17-2011, 12:22 PM
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Interesting view point Rascal! I never thought of that!

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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
That's a very good point.

I must confess I know very little about such (I hesitate to call it a disabillity) a condition. Perhaps someone knows more?

If, repeat if, Frederik were to suffer from such a condition (provided it exisits) that would turn things around 180 degrees. Not least if he went public.

The main theroy I personally lean to right now is that Frederik hasn't met someone who is willing to knock him hard on the head: "Frederik, you suck at expressing yourself. Shut up, sit down and listen"!
Who is going to say that? Mary, who loves him? His friends, who go into a defensive mode and form cordon around him? A civil servant who has been given the task of advising him - the future king?
From biographies and from people talking about Frederik, I have the distinct impression that he is a very stubborn man, in the will-strong sense. He will not quit!
That got him through the training as a Frogman and through the Sirius trek. Joachim has told in an anecdote that the mere suggestion that something is not possible is a sure way to lure Frederik into doing.
Maybe this same strongwillled facet of his character, prevents him from taking a step back and say: "This doesn't work. Perhaps I should try another approach? Perhaps I need help"?
I know, I know, this is pure speculation.

I really like your point, Gatos, that would explain so much. It's absolutely worth considering.
But a question I have...what was Queen Margrethe's speech pattern like when she was younger? Is CP Frederik like his mother in that sense? Or was Queen Margrethe always as articulate as she is today?
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  #87  
Old 01-17-2011, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
I thought we were discussing one aspect of Frederik. I.e. how he speaks in public.

Silly me!

Is it possible to get back on topic? - Frederik, and not his wife.
I'll try.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Muhler. Frederiks speech is that of a teenager, imo. He can't say a sentence without using words like "totally", "extreme(ly)" and "fantastic", making most of his talk undignified. And usually, he paints himself into a corner, by starting with how "totally awesome" something is - and where do you go from there?

For instance (made up from memory):

Journalist: "How did the hospital staff treat you?"
CPF: "Oh, fantastic. We've been treated extremely well".

Hmm... I think. What does it mean to be "extremely well treated"? Because, it's by definition better than "adequately", "Nicely" or "very well/satisfactory".
In the end, the sentence doesn't make any sense.

Journalist: "What is it like to get twins?"
CPF: "It's... It's... Totally fantastic".

Again - what does that mean. It's not "overwhelming", as I'd perhaps put it. It's not even fantastic - no, it's "Totally fantastic".

And it's not as if CPF came stumbling out the elevator, looking like he fell from the moon, utter disbelieving that a phenomenon such as twins was possible. It usually sounds like he simply doesn't have a better vocabulary. I imagine, if you ask him what he thinks of the upholstry on a chair he'd say the same "Extremely fantastic", when it's really just... you know... Meh.

Add to that, CPF speeks in something reminding me of studders and surprise - as if someone put a gun to his head and asked "What's the square root of 37?".

CPF is rarely challenged by the questions the press asks. Recently, with the twins, he could pretty much guess what they'd ask - and prepare a dignified answer. He's never asked to give some deep analysis of a subject, and when he'd confronted with something controversial, like his IOC-membership, it's happned in a forum for just that.

And add to that, the man is a trained officer and commander of men. He's been trained in giving clear orders and answers. And while journalists aren't looking for him to bark his answers at them, surely it would put him in a position to thing about a proper answer.

To me, using words like "fantastic" "totally" etc. is like hugging and (air)kissing the cheeks of some peripheral accuaintance - or even a close family member - every time you meet them. Problem is - where do you go from there? If hugging is your standard greeting, what do you do when you have really missed them, or have extremely good/sad news? Take your clothes off and pet heavily? It doesn't get bigger than "totally" (what a horrible word) or "extremely". So when the color of the kitchen floor is "Totally fantastic", what do you say when your wife asks you about your feelings regarding her victory over cancer?

Now, Benedicte suggests that his speech is (she won't say incoherent, but something to that effect) challenged, because he's trying to come up with a unassailable, academic answer. Well, he's still got that cherry to pop IMO. Theres not the least academic in his speech - it's hardly even grown-up talk.

IMO Joachim is much better formulated - even regarding questions he's had little or no time to prepare himself for. Personally I find Joachim more graceful in his language and public appearences than CPF and would, imo., make a more dignified king.

However, CPF will surely make a satisfactory king, and I have no fantasies about PJ taking over - so don't go there. Plus, CPF found a wife who makes up for most of CPF's failings - and then we all win in the end.
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  #88  
Old 01-17-2011, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terri Terri View Post
But a question I have...what was Queen Margrethe's speech pattern like when she was younger? Is CP Frederik like his mother in that sense? Or was Queen Margrethe always as articulate as she is today?
QMII has always been very articulate. She was however very shy and insecure and she constantly stumbled over the words, and still do. But she had no problem getting her meaing across.

This, almost spooky parody, shows how she was when she turned 60.
Ignore what is being said, look at her (his) bodylanguage and nervous bahavior. It's spot on:

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  #89  
Old 01-17-2011, 12:35 PM
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CPF found a wife who makes up for most of CPF's failings
Well...that's not good enough IMO. His wife isn't going to rule...He is. A supportive wife can't be his continuous savior. Let me reinterate, I adore the man...but where constructive criticim is warranted...it has to be taken note of.

I'm not going to get in to the Joachim issue as he isn't going to be King and comparison between Frederik and his brother is not the topic of this thread.

This is about CP Frederik...and him only.
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  #90  
Old 01-17-2011, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
The main theroy I personally lean to right now is that Frederik hasn't met someone who is willing to knock him hard on the head: "Frederik, you suck at expressing yourself. Shut up, sit down and listen"!
Who is going to say that? Mary, who loves him? His friends, who go into a defensive mode and form cordon around him? A civil servant who has been given the task of advising him - the future king?
From biographies and from people talking about Frederik, I have the distinct impression that he is a very stubborn man, in the will-strong sense. He will not quit!
I don't buy it. There's been plenty of third-hand reports for Frederick to have totally missed it. So Frederik should have brought it up himself if noone else would. A sense of self (selverkendelse in danish) is one of the finest qualities in any man, most of all a king.
Besides - surely there are times when your loved ones can say to you, that there's something you have to work on regarding your behaviour etc. - Hell, even a friend or colleague can passingly say something in a closed forum.

If Frederik doesn't have anyone around him, who's willing to tell him the truth, or if Frederik is simply too stubborn to admit he need help in some areas - well, he's in for a hellish ride, I'd say. IMO, there's nothing embarrasing about training your public speaking skills - in fact, I admire people who own up to their own shortcomings.

If he has a medical (or mental) condition/block, I think he should let that fact seep to the press, and then make an article about it.
IIRC, CP Victoria got quite the boost talking abour anorexia and dyslexia.
Is there anything grander, than people who are honestly trying to better themselves? That's why I hate politicians and journalists so much. That and the fact that they are despicable vermin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terri Terri View Post
Well...that's not good enough IMO. His wife isn't going to rule...He is. A supportive wife can't be his continuous savior.
It's worked before. Queen Ingrid was very much the stabilizing factor in the lives of her and King Frederik IX. Granted, she was a princess from birth - but it was Ingrid who held things together when it came to "formalia".
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  #91  
Old 01-17-2011, 12:43 PM
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I. IMO, there's nothing embarrasing about training your public speaking skills - in fact, I admire people who own up to their own shortcomings.

Is there anything grander, than people who are honestly trying to better themselves?
Agree whole heartedly.

Self aknowledgment and the willingness to ask for help when you need it are praiseworthy traits.
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  #92  
Old 01-17-2011, 12:49 PM
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If he has a medical (or mental) condition/block, I think he should let that fact seep to the press, and then make an article about it.
Really?...or would the same press and critics turn around and use it against him even more? And you're right...too many articles have been written about his poor communication skills for for him not to be aware...especially in connection to his candidature for the IOC.

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That's why I hate politicians and journalists so much. That and the fact that they are despicable vermin.


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It's worked before. Queen Ingrid was very much the stabilizing factor in the lives of her and King Frederik IX. Granted, she was a princess from birth - but it was Ingrid who held things together when it came to "formalia".
You said it! She was a princess from birth - that makes all of the difference for some people.
In addition, these are very different times for monarchies!
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:19 PM
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Isn't this the whole subject of King George, and QEQM lives. The movie The "Kings Speech". The wife steps in and helps the husband.
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:34 PM
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Yes it is! Don't get me wrong...I am not dismissing the support that CP Frederk receives from his wife...or the support that Queen Ingrid gave to Frederik IX or that King George received from Queen Elizabeth.

I am focusing on CP Frederik and what he can do to improve his speech patterns, and ultimately, his communication skills with the media and public. Afterall, he chose to put himself forward as the Danish candidate for the IOC, one of the most political sports organizations around...and his communication style and media skills are very important.
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:44 PM
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Well...that's not good enough IMO. His wife isn't going to rule...He is. A supportive wife can't be his continuous savior.
It has worked in Sweden, where Silvia made up for the King's shortcomings. I am sure Mary will play a vital role in Frederiks concept of reign.

Whether Frederik is suitable or not as King we will only see from when his reign starts. It depends how his shortcomings are being perceived by the Danes. So far, the public loves the imperfect heir. Will they love an imperfect King? Similar to all other heirs, the cost/benefit ratio will apply much more to him than it did to his predecessor.
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:53 PM
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Well, he certainly has quite a panoply of all categories of teachers, consultants etc. at his disposal, and why not psychologists, as , unfortunately, it seems he had a difficult childhood.
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:09 PM
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ItWhether Frederik is suitable or not as King we will only see from when his reign starts. It depends how his shortcomings are being perceived by the Danes. So far, the public loves the imperfect heir. Will they love an imperfect King?
That's the question. It of course depends on what you expect and how you view him, not least in the chosen role he will and is taking on.

Personally I first and foremost view him based on how he is as a husband, father and human being. - In that respect I see him as an excellent role model. This is where I personally feel I can relate to him.

I respect him for his accomplishments in the Frogman Corps and in Sirius, but these achievements are not that important in his role as a king.

It's no secret that I'm less impressed with him when it comes to presenting and representing. I believe he needs help and he needs to ask for help.

I acknowledge his endearing appeal to a wide segment of the population, which should not be underestimated. - It may be that I look too much at his qualifications rather than his human traits.

I believe Frederik and the Danes are very fortunate in having Mary by his side. She is in my opinion clearly his rock, his base, and they supplement each other extremely well, not least when on the job together.
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:12 PM
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So far, the public loves the imperfect heir. Will they love an imperfect King?
Good point. And I don't think we want a perfect CP Frederik or a perfect King Frederik...there are no perfect human beings. We are discussing a required improvement in his speech and communication skills. Its training...if you are expecting a "promotion"...then you need the skills required to do the job.
Quote:
it seems he had a difficult childhood
o.k...he may have had a difficult childhood...but he is now a 42 year old married man and father of 4 children. Suppose it takes years for him to become King...can a "difficult childhood" be used for a lack of communication skills still? IMO...the answer to that is "No".
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:57 PM
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I do not speak Danish, but I am a well-practiced speaker of English, and am aware of the nuances of both American and British English. Younger British English speakers all use "fantastic" "brilliant" "massive" and so on. I notice this from people a generation down from me, which would be Frederik's generation. Certainly I notice this in Prince William's speech patterns, but also in news interviews with journalists under, for example, 50 or 55. It may be that Frederik, who speaks excellent English and certainly speaks English at least some of the time at home, considering it is the CPsesse's native tongue, is quite influenced by such constructions and this more youthful manner of expression.

His English in the presser was quite good. And he certainly showed flashes of wit, without which he would be quite a dullard. Wit, perforce, requires intelligence.

Again, I cannot evaluate his Danish, but is it so much worse than his English?? I would be surprised. I am interested in hearing on this point from other forum members...

Willem-Alexander's English is quite good, but is without the sense of good humour that both Pr. William and CP Frederik readily display.
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Old 01-17-2011, 03:11 PM
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IMO, I've always perceived from CP Frederik that he appears to be very apprehensive about his future role. I sense a certain reluctance in his speech, posture and facial expressions when he is interviewed. Now I believe that all of the current adult Crown Princes/Princess have felt anxiety or even episodes of self-doubt regarding their future roles. However, it appears to me that the rest of them have become more comfortable with their futures. I hope that Frederik will too.
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