The Future of the Danish Monarchy

[Rudolph]

But in Britain the regent must be in the line of succession and capable of succeeding to the throne.

That's why I found it interesting Mary can serve as regent in Denmark

 

[Dee Anna]

That is also interesting.

So, if in some UK dire circumstance (such as a car accident wiping out both Charles and William) Andrew would become the King regent following the later death of the Queen?

What if any role would Kate play other than mum of the underaged King?

 

[Blog Real]

While Joachim is most likely to be appointed Rigsforstander in such a case it's not a certainty.
Only the Crown Prince(ss) is automatically Regent in the absence of the Monarch. Everybody else are appointed Rigsforstander by the Monarch, or Statsrådet - after consultations with the Parliament.

Christian can only be king when he turns eighteen and have signed a pledge to obey the Constitution, which he can't do until he is of legal age, i.e. eighteen.
So the de facto head of state until Christian turns eighteen is the Rigsforstander. That happened during the childhood of King Christian IV and before that under Queen Margrethe I, in the 1300's.

The Danish monarch does hold some constitutional power.
In this case it would be the Rigsforstander who signs laws making them valid.
It's also the Rigsforstander (in this thought experiment Mary) who formally accept the resignations and appointments of governments.
It's also to the Rigsforstander foreign ambassadors present their credentials. Until then they cannot act as fully acknowledged ambassadors.
It's in the name of Rigsforstander Mary, on behalf of her son Christian, that all state and municipal authority in Denmark stems, via the ministries.
Rigsforstander Mary will also formally be the commander in chief of the military. - Again on behalf of her son, but she is the executive.
It's also the Rigsforstander who will head the State Councils and it's the Rigsforstander who will be briefed weekly by the PM, so that she can act in the best interests of Denmark and her son and the DRF - in that order.
Christian will have no official saying in any of these matters.

If she takes her son on state or official visits, Rigsforstander Mary is the first to be greeted, and she is the one who will give the official speech on behalf of Denmark.

It's also Rigsforstander Mary who will decide what to do, if Joachim in a fit of rage plants an axe in the head of his mechanic who did a poor job on the brakes of Joachim's car. - A perfectly understandable reaction...

And so on and so on.

But talked about it why?

 

[Nordic]

So, if in some UK dire circumstance (such as a car accident wiping out both Charles and William) Andrew would become the King regent following the later death of the Queen?

What if any role would Kate play other than mum of the underaged King?

That is, perhaps, a question for one of the British threads?

 

[Ish]

That is also interesting.

So, if in some UK dire circumstance (such as a car accident wiping out both Charles and William) Andrew would become the King regent following the later death of the Queen?

What if any role would Kate play other than mum of the underaged King?

If something caused George to become king while under age, Harry would be Prince Regent. He wouldn't have the title "King Regent" as it doesn't exist in Britain. Andrew would become Prince Regent if something happened to Harry.

 

[Mbruno]

But in Britain the regent must be in the line of succession and capable of succeeding to the throne.

That's why I found it interesting Mary can serve as regent in Denmark

In Spain, on the other hand, the constitution says that the surviving parent of a minor who ascends the throne automatically becomes the regent. In Leonor's case, that would be Queen Letizia assuming she also survived King Felipe VI.

In Belgium , however, as I understand it, there is no automatic rule determining a priori who should serve as regent; instead, if the throne is vacant while the heir is still a minor, the two houses of the federal parliament are convened in a joint session to appoint a regent and a guardian. Likewise, in Sweden, it is the Riksdag who elects a regent if a minor accedes to the throne; in cases, however, when the King is absent or temporarily incapacitated, the first person in the line of succession who is over 18 and is neither absent nor incapacitated automatically takes over as interim regent.

 

[Mbruno]

That is also interesting.

So, if in some UK dire circumstance (such as a car accident wiping out both Charles and William) Andrew would become the King regent following the later death of the Queen?

No, if both Charles and William were deceased and George were still a child, Harry would be the regent (and would not be titled "king"). If Harry had not survived either, Andrew would become regent assuming he was still alive.

What if any role would Kate play other than mum of the underaged King?

I assume she would have no official role as she is not in the line of succession and, therefore, is barred in the UK from automatically becoming the regent.

 

[Skippyboo]

Kate can be the regent for George if the parliament passes a law. The default regent is the next person in the line of succession but that can be changed with a new law like they did in 1952 which made Philip regent not Margaret in case something happened to the Queen and a underage Charles became King.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community

 

[polyesco]

I had never heard of these weekly meetings with the PM and ministers that Frederik also regularly attends, until they were mentioned in an article about the tv-series 'The Queen's castles' a few months ago.

It would be great to know more about the more "invisible" royal duties of the Regent and Crown Prince (couple).

I agree! Frederik regulars attends these meetings with the Queen, for years now, but we hardly hear about them.

Interesting topic Muhler regarding the Danish regency issues.

 

[JessDawn]

Presumably.

It must also be pretty daunting for an eighteen year old suddenly to be monarch!
Especially since royals nowadays are no longer groomed to rule, but to reign, which can be pretty complicated PR and people-skill wise.

So I hope Frederik will introduce abdication in the DRF and abdicate when Christian is about 45 or so.

I wonder how the Danes will take it, since abdication is not traditional. (My other side likes the idea, though.) What do you think guys?

 

[Winnie]

I wonder how the Danes will take it, since abdication is not traditional. (My other side likes the idea, though.) What do you think guys?

Being an American I have never lived under a monarchy but I always liked the idea of a ruler for life. Queen Elizabeth II comes immediately to mind. Wonderful duty to her country. I admire her

 

[MidwestMom]

I like the idea of having a non-partisan head of state. The present state of political affairs in the US makes me think that the monarchy isn't such a bad idea.

 

[Mbruno]

I like the idea of having a non-partisan head of state. The present state of political affairs in the US makes me think that the monarchy isn't such a bad idea.

The fact that there is a non-partisan head of state doesn't mean that the government is not partisan. If you look at Canada and the UK as examples, you'll notice that politics in those countries is highly partisan, divisive and adversarial in nature, not unlike in the US. The advantage of the apolitical monarch is that the ceremonial representation of the State is not contaminated by the confrontational nature of partisan politics, which is good IMHO. The price the country has to pay, however, to achieve that neutrality is a family monopoly over the office of head of state, which is highly controversial.

 

[MidwestMom]

You make good points, Mbruno. I never thought of it quite that way.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

In Spain, on the other hand, the constitution says that the surviving parent of a minor who ascends the throne automatically becomes the regent. In Leonor's case, that would be Queen Letizia assuming she also survived King Felipe VI.

In Belgium , however, as I understand it, there is no automatic rule determining a priori who should serve as regent; instead, if the throne is vacant while the heir is still a minor, the two houses of the federal parliament are convened in a joint session to appoint a regent and a guardian. Likewise, in Sweden, it is the Riksdag who elects a regent if a minor accedes to the throne; in cases, however, when the King is absent or temporarily incapacitated, the first person in the line of succession who is over 18 and is neither absent nor incapacitated automatically takes over as interim regent.

In the Netherlands, soon after the Investiture in 2013, a Regency Act was approved by Parliament: the Dowager of King Willem-Alexander will become the Regentess of the Kingdom, executing the royal prerogatives in name of the underaged Queen Catharina-Amalia. In the second article is arranged that the late King's brother, Prince Constantijn, will become Regent of the Kingdom when also Máxima falls away during her daughter's underage.

By the way, and that will not be different in Spain and Denmark: such a Regent or Regentess is bound by conditions, to protect the interests of the underaged Monarch. Mama Máxima can not sell properties, or engage in financial adventures with the monarch's properties. She can not take her own daughter to Argentina or so without counsel. She can not make decisions on the monarch's upbringing or education without counsel. I am sure also in Denmark and Spain such a Regency Council will installed. Not so to control Regentess Letizia or Regentess Mary, but to safeguard the interests of Queen Leonor and King Christian. So the Regent(ess) is pretty limited too.

 

[Muhler]

A council will be set up to guide, advise and safeguard if the heir is a child and do not have very close relatives to look after his/her interests.
But that was in the old days.
Today Statsrådet = The State Council = The government will check that everything is going on in the correct manner.

Normally a guardian and a Rigsforstander will be enough. Mary as a surviving parent would be enough, so no appointed guarding is needed. And there is nothing to hinder the guardian from also being Rigsforstander. - Because that's what Frederik would be anyway, should Mary die. Not Rigsforstander of course but king, but with the same power and obligations.

If the entire DRF is wiped out. That is there are no longer anyone left in the Line of Succession. (There are thirteen at present IIRC). Then the parliament will convene and appoint a Rigsforstander, until a new king can be appointed - again by the Parliament.

That provision was originally thought out as a precaution against Denmark "going Japanese". I.e running out of heirs, due to statistical whims or for genetic reasons.
Later on, especially during 70's and 80's, Spetnaz taking out QMII, PH and Frederik and Joachim as a prelude to an invasion was a very real possibility. - And in the aftermath of a war, perhaps lasting several years (we assume here it was conventional), perhaps Benedikte could not be tracked down and Elisabeth might have vanished too or not having any children.

 

[Cris M]

I know I'm a bit late for this discussion, but you gave some great explanations, Muhler (as always!), and I have two questions for you:

1. In case both the Queen and the Crown Prince die before Prince Christian is 18, and the Crown Princess / Queen Mary becomes Regent, what would happen if she decides to remarry? I guess if she wants to relocate to Australia, she of course would stop being Regent, but what if she marries a Danish man and remains living in Denmark?

2. In a case the entire Royal Family die (God forbid!), who do you think Parliament would choose to become the new Sovereign? One of Princess Benedikte's children? One of the Rosenborgs? A member of the Greek Royal Family? Or would they rather make Denmark a republic (again, God forbid!)?

Even if there's no asnwer for my questions, I believe I maybe gave you some food for thought, and I know you always like to have some food for thought!

Thanks in advance!

 

[Muhler]

I know I'm a bit late for this discussion, but you gave some great explanations, Muhler (as always!), and I have two questions for you:

1. In case both the Queen and the Crown Prince die before Prince Christian is 18, and the Crown Princess / Queen Mary becomes Regent, what would happen if she decides to remarry? I guess if she wants to relocate to Australia, she of course would stop being Regent, but what if she marries a Danish man and remains living in Denmark?

2. In a case the entire Royal Family die (God forbid!), who do you think Parliament would choose to become the new Sovereign? One of Princess Benedikte's children? One of the Rosenborgs? A member of the Greek Royal Family? Or would they rather make Denmark a republic (again, God forbid!)?

Even if there's no asnwer for my questions, I believe I maybe gave you some food for thought, and I know you always like to have some food for thought!

Thanks in advance!

Good questions.

I'll start with number 2: I don't know. - There are so many factors that it would be pure guesswork and not even a qualified guess. Your guess is as good as mine.

Number 1: You mean would Mary's new husband get a title? IMO that would be unlikely. But the one to decide would be Rigsforstanderen i.e. Mary herself.
In theory she could give him the title of prince consort.
I cannot imagine Mary, as Rigsforstander, would abandon Christian and relocate to say Australia after a new marriage. And not even for at least a few years after Christian become king.
Should that happen however, a new Rigsforstander would be appointed and that would almost certainly be Joachim.
The interesting question in this case is: Would Mary be allowed to take her three youngest children with her to Australia to live permanently?
I'm not so sure, as spares they basically belongs to the state. Mary would certainly face a lot of pressure behind the scenes for staying in DK - at least until Isabella is of age.

 

[FasterB]

Good questions.

I'll start with number 2: I don't know. - There are so many factors that it would be pure guesswork and not even a qualified guess. Your guess is as good as mine.

Number 1: You mean would Mary's new husband get a title? IMO that would be unlikely. But the one to decide would be Rigsforstanderen i.e. Mary herself.
In theory she could give him the title of prince consort.
I cannot imagine Mary, as Rigsforstander, would abandon Christian and relocate to say Australia after a new marriage. And not even for at least a few years after Christian become king.
Should that happen however, a new Rigsforstander would be appointed and that would almost certainly be Joachim.
The interesting question in this case is: Would Mary be allowed to take her three youngest children with her to Australia to live permanently?
I'm not so sure, as spares they basically belongs to the state. Mary would certainly face a lot of pressure behind the scenes for staying in DK - at least until Isabella is of age.

Ad 2: The first will be Princess Elisabeth, but when she dies - I don´t know ...

Ad 1: Isn´t it stated in the pren-up that the children must stay in Denmark?

 

[Cris M]

Thank you very much, Muhler and FasterB! Excellent explanations, as always. And sorry for the late reply.

 

[Countessmeout]

I know I'm a bit late for this discussion, but you gave some great explanations, Muhler (as always!), and I have two questions for you:

1. In case both the Queen and the Crown Prince die before Prince Christian is 18, and the Crown Princess / Queen Mary becomes Regent, what would happen if she decides to remarry? I guess if she wants to relocate to Australia, she of course would stop being Regent, but what if she marries a Danish man and remains living in Denmark?

2. In a case the entire Royal Family die (God forbid!), who do you think Parliament would choose to become the new Sovereign? One of Princess Benedikte's children? One of the Rosenborgs? A member of the Greek Royal Family? Or would they rather make Denmark a republic (again, God forbid!)?

Even if there's no asnwer for my questions, I believe I maybe gave you some food for thought, and I know you always like to have some food for thought!

Thanks in advance!

Benedikte would be queen. The issue is her children are not in line to succeed. Unlike Anne-Marie, Benedikte didn't have to give up her claim, but her kids would only have a claim if raised there which they didn't. Since Elizabeth is the only other heir, a consideration would have to be made. Most logical would be to grant succession rights to her kids. Gustav has a German title and no kids. Alexandra and Nathalie are both Danish and both have kids. Possibly under the agreement they move to Denmark and continue raising the kids there, one of the girls would be heir.

 

[Cris M]

Benedikte would be queen. The issue is her children are not in line to succeed. Unlike Anne-Marie, Benedikte didn't have to give up her claim, but her kids would only have a claim if raised there which they didn't. Since Elizabeth is the only other heir, a consideration would have to be made. Most logical would be to grant succession rights to her kids. Gustav has a German title and no kids. Alexandra and Nathalie are both Danish and both have kids. Possibly under the agreement they move to Denmark and continue raising the kids there, one of the girls would be heir.

My imagined scenario included the deaths of the entire Royal Family, including Princesses Benedikte and Elisabeth.

But I agree that Princess Benedikte's children would be the logical choice, followed by the Rosenborgs or one of the Greeks.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

A council will be set up to guide, advise and safeguard if the heir is a child and do not have very close relatives to look after his/her interests.
But that was in the old days.
Today Statsrådet = The State Council = The government will check that everything is going on in the correct manner.

[....]

That is the constitutional part of the story. No doubt that this will be perfectly covered by the Danish Government. The Regency Council in the Netherlands is to safeguard the private interests of the underaged monarch. To ensure that the Regent is not able to sell private assets, stock portfolios, estates, jewels, artworks, etc. and to ensure that decisions the Regent makes for the underaged monarch are in his/her best interest indeed. Without the control by a Regency Council, the person of the Regent can do immense harm and bring damage to the private interests of the underaged monarch. By poor decisionmaking, by engaging in ruthless financial adventures, by selling priceless items to generate cashflow, etc.

I can not imagine that the Danish Government has a say in the management of the private wealth of the underaged King? I assumed, to make sure that non-Danish mama and Regentess Mary only makes decisions in the best interest of underaged King Christian, she will be controlled by a Regency Council as well?

 

[Countessmeout]

Basically they would have to change succession laws for anyone. Makes sense to follow what would have been the natural line (by eliminating the rules that eliminated them). The Rosenbergs would be low down.

If Marge's sisters died as well:

line of succession natural (eliminating exclusions)

1. Gustav- eldest child of queen's eldest sister
2Alexandra- 2nd child
3Richard- eldest child of 2
4Ingrid- younger child of 2
5 Nathalie- 3rd child
6 Konstantin- oldest child of 5
7 Luisa- youngest child of 5

8. Alexia of Greece- eldest child of queen's youngest sister
9Arietta
10 Ana
11 Carlos
12 Amelia

13 Pavlos
14 Maria Olympia
15 Konstantin
16 Achileas
17 Odysseus
18 Aristides

19 Nikolaus
20 Theodora
21 Philippos

Then you'd have to go further if some mass epidemic wiped those out to

22 Count Ignolf- first cousin of queen (76)
23 Countess Josephine- eldest child of queen's 1st cousin Christian
24 Julius- her 1st child
25 Clara- her 2nd
26 Countess Camilla- Christian's 2ndd
27 Anastasia
28 Ludwig
29 Leopold
30 Theodor
31 Countess Feodora- Christian's 3rd
32 Caroline-Mathilde

From there you'd have to go back to the descendents of siblings of the queen's grandfather.

Question do they make Gustav King with hopes he and Carina can have kids, with his nephews and nieces as back up? Or jump over him due to his German position, and have Queen Alexandra and CP Richard?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The Danes seem a flexible sort of people to me, but will they be thát elastic to make Gustav zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg their next King? I think the chance that Parliament will vote for the Republic of Denmark is bigger.

 

[Denville]

Sorry I haven't read all this thread but i just was caught by the subject line... why on earth is it a discussion? I thought that there had been something happening in Denmark, a sudden massive rise in republicanism. But the Danish monarchy seems stable. are people really speculating on "if the entire family, ie Fred andf Joachim and all their little children died?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Sorry I haven't read all this thread but i just was caught by the subject line... why on earth is it a discussion? I thought that there had been something happening in Denmark, a sudden massive rise in republicanism. But the Danish monarchy seems stable. are people really speculating on "if the entire family, ie Fred andf Joachim and all their little children died?

It is just a purely theoretic discussion on The Royal Forums, I think.

 

[Nordic]

why on earth is it a discussion? I thought that there had been something happening in Denmark, a sudden massive rise in republicanism. But the Danish monarchy seems stable. are people really speculating on "if the entire family, ie Fred andf Joachim and all their little children died?

Only in this thread... for some reason.

Earth to odd discussion...

 

[Denville]

Thank you Nordic. I really was taken aback. I can understand occasional "what if" dicussions like "What if one of Queen Anne's children had lived" or "what if All Henry VIII's children had died.." but about a present day RF it seems odd....

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Thank you Nordic. I really was taken aback. I can understand occasional "what if" dicussions like "What if one of Queen Anne's children had lived" or "what if All Henry VIII's children had died.." but about a present day RF it seems odd....

You never know. Only in 2010 in Smolensk a government plane from Poland crashed. Amongst the dead:
- the President
- the First Lady
- the President of the National Bank
- the Chief-of-Staff of the armed forces
- the vice-chair of the Senate
- the vice-chair of the House
- the chief Admiral of the Navy
- the chief of the National Security Agency
- the chief of the presidential chancellery
- the vice-Minister of Defence
- the President of the National Olympic Committee
-
- and some 80 more of the highest who-is-who in Poland