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  #361  
Old 05-23-2012, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by chelly View Post
Thanks for all that info. It sounds like someone was a bit OCD and a bit paranoid when they did the law of Succession. Aliens Really? I think you are pulling our legs Muhler. : )

So I am to understand that Denmark doesn't have a title like Queen Mother. (Like what happened with the Curren Q Elizabeth and her mother). So in case Frederick dies as King, Mary wouldn't become the King's Mother (I am not sure if England would even have that title) but the Dowager Princess. I think I got confused somewhere. Sorry about that.
Me? Pulling someone's legs? No, surely not.

But the eventuality of the monarch disappearing is covered. After a while the Parliament will simply decide that the crown prince/ess is now king/queen and move on.

I'm afraid I don't know what OCD is.

If you are confused I don't blame you. The title of dowager princess doesn't exist in DK. Mary will be a princess - but treated with the respect that befits the mother of the king.
(I translated parts of the Law of Succession some time back, I'll see if I can dig it up).
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  #362  
Old 05-23-2012, 01:53 AM
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The title of dowager princess doesn't exist in DK
The title 'Counts of Monpezat' didn't exist in Denmark though either

Or is it a case of there being no literal translation?

Has there ever been any royal women in Denmark who's husband's pre-deceased them before they became sovereign? If so, what were the titles they were then granted? Or did they revert back to their former titles (assuming they were born of a royal or princely house).
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  #363  
Old 05-23-2012, 02:25 AM
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Here is the translation of parts of the Law of Succession.

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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Here is what the first (democratic) Constitution of 1849 has to say in regards to Regent/Rigsforstander.
It has to be said that back then monarchs didn't travel as much as now and with modern forms of communication and transport it's now very easy to get in touch with the monarch, when he is away from his realm. The Danish monarch had much more political power back then as well.
Rather than translating the text to "modern", I'll interprete and explain it instead.

§ 9. If the king, due to illness or because he is away, find that a Rigsforstander should be appointed. He will convene the Parliament and propose a bill. - That is no longer necessary. QMII just sign a document statiing that X will be Rigsforstander until she returns and then informs the government.

§10. If the king is unable to rule, the State Council (the government) will convene the Parliament. When the total Parliament, with 75 % of the votes that is casted, find it necessary it will appoint a Rigsforstander and if necessary a Guardian. - The Rigsforstander rules the country on behalf of the king, the Guardian look after the king's interests.

§11. Is there reason to fear that the Heir upon the death of the king will not be of legal age or for another reason unable to rule himself, a law will be passed which appoint a Rigsforstander and a guardianship is appointed by the king. - If the heir is under the age of 18, comatose, in rehab because he's a drugaddict, in captivity and so on.

§12. The Rigsforstander take the appropriate pledge/oath before the king and excerzise as long as he is Rigsforstander all rights by the monarch in the name of the king. He cannot propose changes in the order of succession however. - Nowadays they sign a pledge to obey the Constitution.

§13. When the king is dead, the Parliament will convene on the fourteenth day. - This is achaic legislation and presumably the Parliament approve that the succession is correct and that no coup d'etat has taken place.

§14. If there is no heir or the heir cannot lead the government at once, the State Council will head the government until the Parliament has decided what to do.
- The monarch is no longer head of the government. QMII is head of the State Council. The government is the udøvende magt = the executive power and act formally in the name of Queen Margrethe. The PM will run the store until the Parliament has decided what to do. Interestingly the first or one of the first things a newly appointed Rigsforstander has to do, is to approve himself.

§15. Is the heir or Rigsforstander absent, the convened Parliament will state a timeperiod in which he must return.
If the heir is not of legal age or for another reason unable to rule. And no Rigsforstander and Guardianship has been appointed, the convened Parliament appoints a Rigsforstander and authorise a Guardianship.
If there is no heir, the convened Parliament will elect a king and determine the future Order of Succession.
- Lets break this up in three parts:
A) Is used if Frederik is sitting in Australia with his arms crossed and sulking, because "I will not return home to be king"! Or if he is abducted by aliens or lost at sea.
B) Is used if Frederik and QMII dies before Christian has turned 18, or if he is mentally or physically unfit to become king.
C) If there is no (immediate) successor at all. - There is no "King Ralph" scenario here.

§ 9. Saafremt Kongen, enten formedelst Bortreise eller Svaghed, finder, at der bør udnævnes en Rigsforstander, sammenkalder han Rigsdagen og forelægger den et Lovforslag herom.
§ 10. Bliver Kongen ude af Stand til at regjere, sammenkalder Statsraadet Rigsdagen. Naar da den forenede Rigsdag med tre Fjerdedele af de afgivne Stemmer erkjender Nødvendigheden, udnævner den en Rigsforstander og anordner, om fornødent gjøres, et Formynderskab.
§ 11. Er der Anledning til at frygte for, at Thronfølgeren ved Kongens Død vil være umyndig eller af anden Grund ude af Stand til selv at regjere, bestemmes ved Lov en Rigsforstander, og et Formynderskab anordnes af Kongen. Rigsforstanderen kan ikke deeltage i Formynderskabet.
§ 12. Rigsforstanderen aflægger den for Kongen foreskrevne Eed og udøver, saalænge Rigsforstanderskabet varer, i Kongens Navn alle dennes Rettigheder; dog kan han ikke foreslaae Forandring af Arvefølgen.
§ 13. Naar Kongen er død, sammentræder 14de Dagen derefter uden Sammenkaldelse den sidstvalgte Rigsdag.
§ 14. Er der ingen Thronfølger, eller kan Thronfølgeren eller Rigsforstanderen ikke strax tiltræde Regjeringen, føres den af Statsraadet, indtil fornøden Bestemmelse er tagen af Rigsdagen.
§ 15. Er Thronfølgeren eller Rigsforstanderen fraværende, bestemmer den forenede Rigsdag, inden hvilken Tid han har at vende tilbage. Er Thronfølgeren umyndig, eller af anden Grund ikke i Stand til at regjere, uden at Rigsforstander og Formynderskab er bestemt, udnævner den forenede Rigsdag Rigsforstanderen og beskikker Formynderskabet. Er der ingen Thronfølger, vælger den forenede Rigsdag en Konge og fastsætter den fremtidige Arvefølge.
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  #364  
Old 05-23-2012, 02:46 AM
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Is the title Crown Princess still considered an unsuitable title for a Princess who is heiress presumptive, or has there been some law to give it two meanings instead of just the 1?
Also if it was me, I would still, in private at least, delegate to my father no matter if I was Head of State.
I can just imagine my parents saying "I don't care what they call you...I brought u in this world and I'll take you out" : \
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  #365  
Old 05-23-2012, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
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The title 'Counts of Monpezat' didn't exist in Denmark though either

Or is it a case of there being no literal translation?

Has there ever been any royal women in Denmark who's husband's pre-deceased them before they became sovereign? If so, what were the titles they were then granted? Or did they revert back to their former titles (assuming they were born of a royal or princely house).
The litteral translation would be enkeprinsesse, that word doesn't exist in Danish and it sounds pretty weird to my ear.
The word dowager queen = enkedronning does exist, but it's not an official title.

No doubt. I can't name anyone off hand however and I don't know what title they got, if any. We are going I don't know how many centuries back. At least to the age of Absolutism if not before. (I.e. pre 1670).
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  #366  
Old 05-23-2012, 02:56 AM
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Haha, ah yes! A parent's prerogative

Quote:
At least to the age of Absolutism if not before
Yes I thought it would have to stretch back to the time of Absolutism or before, as you say, if there were in fact any women who found themselves in the said position.

So ultimately the title 'enkeprinsesse' could be created if the monarch chose to do so. Though as you say, there is no past precedence for it.
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  #367  
Old 05-23-2012, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
Is the title Crown Princess still considered an unsuitable title for a Princess who is heiress presumptive, or has there been some law to give it two meanings instead of just the 1?
Also if it was me, I would still, in private at least, delegate to my father no matter if I was Head of State.
I can just imagine my parents saying "I don't care what they call you...I brought u in this world and I'll take you out" : \
There can be only one crown princess: The heir or the wife of the crown prince.
Everybody else are just princesses.

The title of crown princess implies that she is destined to become the next queen. Unless something unfortunate happens.

A king Frederik is the head of his family as well as the head of state. He may listen a lot to his father's advise, but it's Frederik who is in charge.

Should a chauffeur kick one of the dachshunds and Prince Henrik retalliates by planting a meatcleaver in the head of that chauffeur, it will be king Frederik who will ultimately decide what sanctions will be taken against PH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
So ultimately the title 'enkeprinsesse' could be created if the monarch chose to do so. Though as you say, there is no past precedence for it.
Yes, that is entirely up to the monarch.

But it's an empty title. It's how she is treated that matters. Mary will be treated with that respect that befits the mother of the next king.
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  #368  
Old 05-23-2012, 03:13 AM
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I agree wholeheartedly with you Muhler. It's all reflected in how an indavidual is treated. As the mother of an heir or monarch and three other Danish princess' and prince, Mary's position of seniority and importance within the family is unquestionably secured.
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  #369  
Old 05-24-2012, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by FasterB View Post
Are you sure he won´t be CP in the moment his dad is king?
Jeg synes at have læst, at Frederik blev kronprins, da Kong Frederik den 9. døde... Nu har jeg skrevet til Hofmarskallatet og spurgt dem :) :) : )
Well, I´ve received an answer from the Court. And when King Frederik IX died, then the then Princess Margrethe became Queen Margrethe II and the then Prince Frederik became Crown Prince Frederik So he has been Crown Prince since the 14th January 1972.
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  #370  
Old 05-24-2012, 07:29 AM
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Thank you for a great initiative, FasterB

And I was proven wrong, not for the first and hopefully not for the last time.
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  #371  
Old 05-24-2012, 08:00 AM
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In the event of the death of Frederick within the current reign, I think Mary will be referred to as Princess Mary, and not Crown Princess Mary.
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  #372  
Old 05-24-2012, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Thank you for a great initiative, FasterB

And I was proven wrong, not for the first and hopefully not for the last time.
You´re so welcome, Muhler

I think by the answer from the court can conclude (konkludere) that when QMII dies and CP Frederik becomes King Frederik X then Prince Christian will be Crown Prince Christian - no matter his age
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  #373  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:56 AM
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Inspired by a Q&A in Billed Bladet #49, 2012, let's have a look at what happens when QMII dies.

As you know Frederik will become king the second his mother dies and there is no coronation, there are however a few traditions.

Let's say QMII dies in the evening.

The colour of the Royal Lifeguard Regiment's guard detachment, will be moved form the mansion where the Regent Couple lives to the mansion where M&F now live.
The next forenoon there will be an extraordinary State Council after that the Prime Minister will proclaim from the balcony at either Christiansborg or Amalienborg (M&F's mansion to be exact) and announce to the four corners of the world that: Queen Margrethe II is dead. Long live His Majesty King Frederik X.
Then Frederik will give a short speech and at the same time announce his proverb.
The procalmation is merely ceremonial, Frederik will already have been king for hours.

The employees at the court are also dismissed, but most are rehired again to serve the new monarch. - Exceptions will be QMII's private secretary, her court chief and similar close associates. Frederik after all has his own staff.

In the weeks to follow all QMII's monograms will be replaced with Frederik's monogram on letter heads, sentry boxes, uniforms (including the epaulettes of the Royal Lifeguard), colours, stamps, government buildings and so on.
In embassies the traditional portraits of the Regent Couple will be replaced with portraits of M&F.
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  #374  
Old 12-06-2012, 12:22 PM
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Does this mean there are "official portraits of King Frederik X and Queen Mary" just lying around in some warehouse?
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  #375  
Old 12-06-2012, 12:25 PM
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Does this mean there are "official portraits of King Frederik X and Queen Mary" just lying around in some warehouse?
I suspect all that will happen is that when the time comes, Fred & Mary will pose for some photographs, which will be reproduced and used across the country.
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  #376  
Old 12-06-2012, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Inspired by a Q&A in Billed Bladet #49, 2012, let's have a look at what happens when QMII dies.

As you know Frederik will become king the second his mother dies and there is no coronation, there are however a few traditions.

Let's say QMII dies in the evening.

The colour of the Royal Lifeguard Regiment's guard detachment, will be moved form the mansion where the Regent Couple lives to the mansion where M&F now live.
The next forenoon there will be an extraordinary State Council after that the Prime Minister will proclaim from the balcony at either Christiansborg or Amalienborg (M&F's mansion to be exact) and announce to the four corners of the world that: Queen Margrethe II is dead. Long live His Majesty King Frederik X.
Then Frederik will give a short speech and at the same time announce his proverb.
The procalmation is merely ceremonial, Frederik will already have been king for hours.

The employees at the court are also dismissed, but must are rehired again to serve the new monarch. - Exceptions will be QMII's private secretary, her court chief and similar close associates. Frederik after all has his own staff.

In the weeks to follow all QMII's monograms will be replaced with Frederik's monogram on letter heads, sentry boxes, uniforms (including the epaulettes of the Royal Lifeguard), colors, stamps, government buildings and so on.
In embassies the traditional portraits of the Regent Couple will be replaced with portraits of M&F.
Many thanks for providing this information. I do hope that many years will pass before we see the reality of these interesting and unique traditions, as I do love Queen Margrethe very much.
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  #377  
Old 12-06-2012, 02:58 PM
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Does this mean there are "official portraits of King Frederik X and Queen Mary" just lying around in some warehouse?
Almost.
Every couple of years new photos are made of the DRF in full gala.
These pictures are normally for the press and also for the embassies in various countries.
There are of course also such photos of M&F hanging in the embassies. It will be no problem to put such a photo of M&F on the place of honor, replacing the photo of the current Regent Couple.
And after a while new official photos, including the traditional one of the monarch (i.e. Frederik) in profile, will be made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muriel View Post
I suspect all that will happen is that when the time comes, Fred & Mary will pose for some photographs, which will be reproduced and used across the country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacknch View Post
Many thanks for providing this information. I do hope that many years will pass before we see the reality of these interesting and unique traditions, as I do love Queen Margrethe very much.
You are welcome.
And you are right, many if not most will lament the passing of QMII.
But according to polls, M&F don't have to fear the transition, the people is ready and willing for M&F to take over.
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  #378  
Old 12-06-2012, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Inspired by a Q&A in Billed Bladet #49, 2012, let's have a look at what happens when QMII dies.

As you know Frederik will become king the second his mother dies and there is no coronation, there are however a few traditions.

Let's say QMII dies in the evening.

The colour of the Royal Lifeguard Regiment's guard detachment, will be moved form the mansion where the Regent Couple lives to the mansion where M&F now live.
The next forenoon there will be an extraordinary State Council after that the Prime Minister will proclaim from the balcony at either Christiansborg or Amalienborg (M&F's mansion to be exact) and announce to the four corners of the world that: Queen Margrethe II is dead. Long live His Majesty King Frederik X.
Then Frederik will give a short speech and at the same time announce his proverb.
The procalmation is merely ceremonial, Frederik will already have been king for hours.

The employees at the court are also dismissed, but must are rehired again to serve the new monarch. - Exceptions will be QMII's private secretary, her court chief and similar close associates. Frederik after all has his own staff.

In the weeks to follow all QMII's monograms will be replaced with Frederik's monogram on letter heads, sentry boxes, uniforms (including the epaulettes of the Royal Lifeguard), colors, stamps, government buildings and so on.
In embassies the traditional portraits of the Regent Couple will be replaced with portraits of M&F.
Thank you for that extra information I didn't know about employees at the court being dismissed and hadn't thought about the royal monograms!
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  #379  
Old 12-06-2012, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Almost.
Every couple of years new photos are made of the DRF in full gala.
These pictures are normally for the press and also for the embassies in various countries.
There are of course also such photos of M&F hanging in the embassies. It will be no problem to put such a photo of M&F on the place of honor, replacing the photo of the current Regent Couple.
And after a while new official photos, including the traditional one of the monarch (i.e. Frederik) in profile, will be made.





You are welcome.
And you are right, many if not most will lament the passing of QMII.
But according to polls, M&F don't have to fear the transition, the people is ready and willing for M&F to take over.

that is def. good to hear.
thank you for writing about the steps that take place
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  #380  
Old 12-07-2012, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
The next forenoon there will be an extraordinary State Council after that the Prime Minister will proclaim from the balcony at either Christiansborg or Amalienborg (M&F's mansion to be exact) and announce to the four corners of the world that: Queen Margrethe II is dead. Long live His Majesty King Frederik X.
Then Frederik will give a short speech and at the same time announce his proverb.
The procalmation is merely ceremonial, Frederik will already have been king for hours.
I´m almost 99,9% sure that it will be from the balcony at Christiansborg, since it will be there that the State Council will take place :)
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