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  #341  
Old 05-22-2012, 09:03 AM
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Coming of age! Noted.

Would it not be plausible that if Christian were still a small child in the event of such an unlikely travesty, that Mary could retain the honourary use of Crown Princess until her son comes of age being that it was the principal title she held at the time of her husband's premature departure? Or would it be a matter of sorting out the issue of titles as quickly as possible to ensure a smooth transition for all involved?
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  #342  
Old 05-22-2012, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
Coming of age! Noted.

Would it not be plausible that if Christian were still a small child in the event of such an unlikely travesty, that Mary could remain Crown Princess until her son comes of age being that it was the title she held at the time of her husband's premature departure? Or would it be a matter of sorting out the issue of titles out as quickly as possible?
That would ultimately be up to QMII.
But there would be no point in Mary keeping her title as Crown Princess, she would never become queen and it would make absolutely no difference in the way she is treated.
Whether Mary would get some sort of title as a consolation is an open question, but I doubt it. She can't be made dowager-princess "enke-prinsesse" that word doesn't even exist in Danish.
I can well imagine QMII having so much tact and grace that Mary would stand between the Regent Couple and Joachim when greeting people, as a sign of respect. - She is after all the mother to the next king.

Another what if is if Frederik and Joachim should both die at the same time in a planecrash next month. Well, QMII won't be around forever. Let's say she dies a year later.
Okay, Benedikte will step in, so let's kill her off as well.

What happens now is that a Rigsforstander will be appointed. The most likely candidate around is actually Mary, at least until Nikolai turns eighteen and he can step in as Rigsforstander. - After which Mary would still be the de facto regent for Christian.

My pleasure, Artemisia
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  #343  
Old 05-22-2012, 09:31 AM
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Certainly, the title of countess would not seem adequate given the nature of her position within the family so I don't even consider that a possibility. Plus, it would not have been the result of a divorce.

Thanks for the replies, Muhler.
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  #344  
Old 05-22-2012, 09:43 AM
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In regards to Christian's title if Frederik was dead, but Queen Margrethe still alive, wouldn't the title depend on QM's decision and not whether Christian was eighteen or not?

When Margrethe was heir to throne, she didn't have the title of Crown Princess, she was simply Princess Margrethe until her father died, but Frederik, to my knowledge, has been the Crown Prince ever since his grandfather died.

Prince Christian would undoubtedly get the title when he comes of age, but until then I'm assuming it's the monarch's decision.
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  #345  
Old 05-22-2012, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Flowerbed View Post
In regards to Christian's title if Frederik was dead, but Queen Margrethe still alive, wouldn't the title depend on QM's decision and not whether Christian was eighteen or not?

When Margrethe was heir to throne, she didn't have the title of Crown Princess, she was simply Princess Margrethe until her father died, but Frederik, to my knowledge, has been the Crown Prince ever since his grandfather died.

Prince Christian would undoubtedly get the title when he comes of age, but until then I'm assuming it's the monarch's decision.
Was Margrethe ever anything more than Throne Follower or heiress presumptive since she could still technically have been replaced as heir by a male?
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  #346  
Old 05-22-2012, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Flowerbed View Post
In regards to Christian's title if Frederik was dead, but Queen Margrethe still alive, wouldn't the title depend on QM's decision and not whether Christian was eighteen or not?

When Margrethe was heir to throne, she didn't have the title of Crown Princess, she was simply Princess Margrethe until her father died, but Frederik, to my knowledge, has been the Crown Prince ever since his grandfather died.

Prince Christian would undoubtedly get the title when he comes of age, but until then I'm assuming it's the monarch's decision.
I also thought until fairly recently that Frederik became Crown Prince when Frederik IX died. He didn't. Apparantly that's a common misconception.

Christian is the officially acknowledged heir and he will become crown prince when he turns eighteen and has signed the pledge to obey the Constitution. And is still a Lutheran and of sound mind and hasn't done anything criminal that makes him unworthy.
QMII (or king Frederik) cannot prevent that even if she wanted to. That is mentioned somewhere in the Law of Succession.
Only the Parliament (and Christian himself) can prevent him from becoming crown prince. - Simply by no longer acknowledging Christian as the heir. (But that's another big issue!!)

One of the defining characteristics of being a crown prince is that Christian will automatically step in as Regent when need be, everybody else are just appointed Rigsforstander by the Monarch (or the Parliament).
In theory QMII could appoint you as Rigsforstander before Joachim, but she cannot appoint you before Frederik.
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  #347  
Old 05-22-2012, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Was Margrethe ever anything more than Throne Follower or heiress presumptive since she could still technically have been replaced as heir by a male?
Margrethe was "Princess Margrethe, Heiress to the throne".

The reason she was not Crown Princess is because at the time, Crown Princess meant someone married to a Crown Prince (women couldn't rule (some say they still can't ) and despite the reform of the constitution in '53, this notion survived).

With the latest disaster of a law of succession, the first-born will rule and I suppose Crown Princess will be analogous to Crown Prince.
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  #348  
Old 05-22-2012, 12:30 PM
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If Henrik is still alive when Frederik becomes king, he would no longer be the prince consort, would he be a prince of Denmark?

would Henrik be outranked by Queen Mary ?
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  #349  
Old 05-22-2012, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by polyesco View Post
If Henrik is still alive when Frederik becomes king, he would no longer be the prince consort, would he be a prince of Denmark?

would Henrik be outranked by Queen Mary ?
Well, QMII made him Prince Consort. I guess they would let him keep the title, for the relative few years he would have left. And he is known and addressed as Prince Henrik anyway.

In terms of title, Mary would certanly outrank PH. She would be a majesty, Henrik a mere royal highness.
In regards to state affairs, Mary would again outrank and come before PH, simply because she is a part of the regent couple.

Family wise it's more complicated. A king Frederik would both formally and officially be the head of the family. Whether PH would still consider himself the patriarch of the family remains to be seen, that would depend on his own psycology and whether Frederik puts his foot down if necessary.
He would still be treated with the utmost respect but he will have to get used to walking behind Frederik and Mary.

A dignified and likely solution would be for PH to retire to Chateau Cayz. Here he can be the patriach when the family comes visiting.
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  #350  
Old 05-22-2012, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
I also thought until fairly recently that Frederik became Crown Prince when Frederik IX died. He didn't. Apparantly that's a common misconception.

Christian is the officially acknowledged heir and he will become crown prince when he turns eighteen and has signed the pledge to obey the Constitution. And is still a Lutheran and of sound mind and hasn't done anything criminal that makes him unworthy.
QMII (or king Frederik) cannot prevent that even if she wanted to. That is mentioned somewhere in the Law of Succession.
Only the Parliament (and Christian himself) can prevent him from becoming crown prince. - Simply by no longer acknowledging Christian as the heir. (But that's another big issue!!)

One of the defining characteristics of being a crown prince is that Christian will automatically step in as Regent when need be, everybody else are just appointed Rigsforstander by the Monarch (or the Parliament).
In theory QMII could appoint you as Rigsforstander before Joachim, but she cannot appoint you before Frederik.
I assumed Christian would become Crown Prince as soon as his father became monarch, as well - interesting. If Margrethe is still alive when Christian turns eighteen will he still sign the pledge at that time or will that happen only when his father is king?
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  #351  
Old 05-22-2012, 01:08 PM
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Queen Ingrid was still called queen after her husband died. (She should have been enke-dronning really, but I've heard she did not like that title)
I see no reason Henrik could not keep his title. It's not likely there will be another Prince Consort anytime soon anyway. And making him only Prince Henrik might be a bit confusing when Little Henrik grows up.
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  #352  
Old 05-22-2012, 01:31 PM
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I assumed Christian would become Crown Prince as soon as his father became monarch, as well - interesting. If Margrethe is still alive when Christian turns eighteen will he still sign the pledge at that time or will that happen only when his father is king?
Christian will sign the pledge on his eighteenth birthday. He would in that case not become crown prince until QMII dies. In that second Frederik becomes king and Christian crown prince.

Once he has signed that pledge he can step in as Rigsforstander. - But not Regent, only the crown prince (the heir) can be Regent.

When you think about it, it makes sense that an heir doesn't become crown prince/ess until the eighteenth birthday. It gives the Parliament time to check him/her out.

There are quite a number of reasons to prevent Christian becoming crown prince:
- He could move to Sweden and become a Swedish citizen.
- He could murder someone or commit another serious crime.
- He could go mad.
- He could refuse to sign the pledge.
- He could publicly declare himself a paedophile, in which case there would probably be some reluctance to make him crown prince.
- He could become gravely ill and thereby be less capable of fulfilling his duties, in which case the best solution might be to bypass him.
- He could convert to Buddism.

If you look at Law of Succession, someone has really thought hard about covering all sorts of eventualities.
Should QMII be abducted by aliens tomorrow and taken to Saturn in a spaceship that is covered as well....
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  #353  
Old 05-22-2012, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
That should not be considered a demotion. Mary will not be expected to curtsey to her son, that would be in conflict with the Ten Commandments.
I actually think that Mary would have to curtsey to her son. He is the king.
IIRC, then I saw Queen Ingrid curtsey to QMII.

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Christian will become crown prince on his eighteenth birthday, after having signed a pledge to obey the Constitution.
Are you sure he won´t be CP in the moment his dad is king?
Jeg synes at have læst, at Frederik blev kronprins, da Kong Frederik den 9. døde... Nu har jeg skrevet til Hofmarskallatet og spurgt dem :) :) : )
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  #354  
Old 05-22-2012, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by FasterB View Post
I actually think that Mary would have to curtsey to her son. He is the king.
IIRC, then I saw Queen Ingrid curtsey to QMII.


Are you sure he won´t be CP in the moment his dad is king?
Jeg synes at have læst, at Frederik blev kronprins, da Kong Frederik den 9. døde... Nu har jeg skrevet til Hofmarskallatet og spurgt dem :) :) : )
The keyword is expected.

ADDED: I simply cannot imagine Prince Henrik would bow to king Frederik.

I hope so, FasterB, because IRRC, you were the one who pointed it out to me almost two years ago. Twice in fact.
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  #355  
Old 05-22-2012, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
The keyword is expected.

ADDED: I simply cannot imagine Prince Henrik would bow to king Frederik.

I hope so, FasterB, because IRRC, you were the one who pointed it out to me almost two years ago. Twice in fact.
Damn, am I that old, so I can´t remember that Well, I have written to the court and asked them - they must know it
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  #356  
Old 05-22-2012, 08:06 PM
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Thanks for all that info. It sounds like someone was a bit OCD and a bit paranoid when they did the law of Succession. Aliens Really? I think you are pulling our legs Muhler. : )

So I am to understand that Denmark doesn't have a title like Queen Mother. (Like what happened with the Curren Q Elizabeth and her mother). So in case Frederick dies as King, Mary wouldn't become the King's Mother (I am not sure if England would even have that title) but the Dowager Princess. I think I got confused somewhere. Sorry about that.
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  #357  
Old 05-22-2012, 08:19 PM
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As a general rule one has to have been a Queen to become Queen Mother. To use a British example Queen Victoria's mother was HRH The Duchess of Kent. The Duchess of Kents husband was never King so she was never Queen Consort and so she could not become Queen Dowager or Queen Mother when Victoria came to the throne. Not sure how it would work in Denmark but expect it would be similar.
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  #358  
Old 05-22-2012, 10:22 PM
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Does anyone know what kind of things the Danish have planned for there queens 40 years on the throne? I would assume that the monarchy is at one of it's highest approval ratings because of this. Does anyone know how popular the queen is at the moment?
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  #359  
Old 05-22-2012, 10:33 PM
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Does anyone know what kind of things the Danish have planned for there queens 40 years on the throne? I would assume that the monarchy is at one of it's highest approval ratings because of this. Does anyone know how popular the queen is at the moment?
I am sure there is a thread in the DRF board all about the celebrations that happened in January for her 40th anniversary on the throne.
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  #360  
Old 05-22-2012, 10:34 PM
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There is a thread dedicated to Her Majesty's 40 years on the Throne - Queen Margrethe II’s 40th Jubilee Celebrations; January - February 2012
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