The Future of the Danish Monarchy

[Emmily]

Muhler, love your comment and very much agree with your 'added' comment about Mary's clothes.

[BeatrixFan]

Originally Posted by sjetajiem

I even think that Kings Queens and nations will disappear a lot sooner (maybe 20 years or so).
If Europe will survive, nations will have to give up their autonomy and there will be one central government to take action more rapidly than now with all those governments and parliaments.

I'm sure alot of people have felt that way over the past few centuries. The fact is that monarchy survives in European countries. The only reason we lost the German, Serbian, French etc monarchies is because of very radical, extreme national incidents or revolutions. Nowadays people are less inclined to such actions and so without a huge disaster on the cards, people seem quite resolved to the idea that they have monarchies. I certainly can't see Denmark getting rid of their monarchy, as far as I can see the current incumbent is popular, Crown Prince Frederick is regarded as quite a safe bet and who could object to Prince Christian? So in my view, the Danish monarchy is secure for at least two more generations.

[FasterB]

Originally Posted by nwinther

Yeah, she's a real promise-keeper that one.

Jeps, det er da lige det, hun er

[Muhler]

I guess this hypothetical question belongs here.

Summary of a Q&A in Billed Bladet #18, 2012.
Where a Myrna Westhi would like to know what title Mary would get, should she marry a commoner after the death of Frederik.

Jon Bloch Skipper basically admits that he doesn't know. There is no presedence for that in Danish history. Not since the 1400's and the widow in that case, Dorothea of Brandenburg, married the next king, so she remained queen.

It would be entirely up to king Christian to sanction the marriage of his mother and to decide whether she should even remain as a member of the DRF and what title she would get.

[Artemisia]

Based on the precedence with Alexandra, I think it is fairly certain Mary would at the very least be given a nobility title. As a mother of the future King, it is also likely Mary would also retain her royal style. Hopefully Frederik and Mary will live long and happy lives together, so the issue will not arise.

[nwinther]

In theory, Frederik could die tomorrow and the question would, should it arise, lie in the hands of the Queen.

However, I don't see a reason Mary would remarry. It would pose so many more problems than it would solve. It would, after all, be entirely possible for her to pursue romantic interests without having to enter into holy matrimony.

In fact, the matter could easily happen with the current Queen and Prince Consort. If the Queen dies leaving the Prince Consort as widower, the then King Frederik could find himself in a similar situation.

Again, I don't see why the Prince Consort would remarry. It's entirely unnecessary.

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by nwinther

It's entirely unnecessary.

Other than the fact that if Henrik or Mary found themselves in that situation, they want to remarry. I don't see how it would create more problems then not, Frederik or Christian or Margrethe depending upon the order of things would decided, presumably just giving a new title to Mary or Henrik.

[Viv]

Originally Posted by nwinther

I don't see why the Prince Consort would remarry. It's entirely unnecessary.

I don't see that happening either!
And pardon me for saying so, but sometimes these 'what-if' questions in Billed Bladet are way beyond reason! But maybe people don't have anything better to do?

viv

[camelot23ca]

Late to the party here, but I find this an interesting, (albeit weird), question. In the event of a divorce I could see Mary giving up or losing her title... although given that she will always be the mother of the future monarch I don't think we can take Alexandra's situation as any sort of guide. But if Frederik were to die before becoming King, would Mary not still be entitled to the title of Crown Princess for the rest of her life?

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by camelot23ca

Late to the party here, but I find this an interesting, (albeit weird), question. In the event of a divorce I could see Mary giving up or losing her title... although given that she will always be the mother of the future monarch I don't think we can take Alexandra's situation as any sort of guide. But if Frederik were to die before becoming King, would Mary not still be entitled to the title of Crown Princess for the rest of her life?

If Frederik dies before becoming King, Mary will retain her title of a Crown Princess, unless she remarries. If she does remarry, given her status of the mother of a future Monarch, it is likely she will be bestowed a title similar to Alexandra's (probably, higher).

[Madame Royale]

More than likely she would be created a Princess of the Kingdom of Denmark in her own right, I'd imagine.

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Madame Royale

More than likely she would be created a Princess of the Kingdom of Denmark in her own right, I'd imagine.

That's be very likely.
In fact, I don't see why, when Christian becomes King, she couldn't be created a Queen Mother.
Granted, that has never happened; in order to become a Queen Mother, you normally have to be a Queen Consort first. But it's not exactly impossible either.

[miche]

The Queen Mother isn't an official title. The only reason why Queen Elizabeth was call that was become the Dowager Queen, Queen Mary was still alive when King George died.

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by miche

The Queen Mother isn't an official title. The only reason why Queen Elizabeth was call that was become the Dowager Queen, Queen Mary was still alive when King George died.

In the United Kingdom, Queen Mother is an official title that the Queen Dowager who is also mother of the present Monarch automatically assumes. However, the title, along with the title of a Queen Dowager, is rarely, if ever used: instead, Queens Mother, Queens Dowager, and Queens Consort are simply known as "Queen Name".
The mother of the present Monarch was specifically styled Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother because she and her daughter shared the same first name, and it would have been awkward, not to mention confusing, to have two Queens Elizabeth.

At least, that has always been my understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_mother

[Muhler]

If Frederik should die before he becomes king, Mary will quietly lose her title and another will be created for her. Presumably princess of Denmark.

There can be only one crown princess. The next female heir or the wife of the next male heir.

Should Christian have turned eighteen, he will become king and Mary will again lose her title as crown princess.

That should not be considered a demotion. Mary will not be expected to curtsey to her son, that would be in conflict with the Ten Commandments.

ADDED: In the sense that monarchs in the old days may, if need by, have blinded their parents or banished them to a remote corner of the realm or whatever nasty things they might come up with. But they wouldn't humiliate them or offend God by making them bow or curtsey to their children.

Interestingly, should Christian have a daughter as his firstborn, it will be very doubtful whether her husband will get the title of crown prince as that somehow implies that he will eventually become a majesty, i.e. king and not a prince consort.

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Muhler

If Frederik should die before he becomes king, Mary will quietly lose her title and another will be created for her. Presumably princess of Denmark.

Thanks for the explanation, Muhler.
Does it mean that in Denmark a (royal) widow doesn't keep her titles until she re-marries?

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Artemisia

Thanks for the explanation, Muhler.
Does it mean that in Denmark a (royal) widow doesn't keep her titles until she re-marries?

Eeh, not sure what you mean.

If Frederik should die while he is still Crown Prince, Mary will lose her title as Crown Princess, because there can be only one crown princess. The heir or the wife of a crown prince.
She will still remain a princess though.
If Frederik should die while he is king, Mary will keep her title as queen.
Should Joachim die before our Marie, she will keep her title as Princess until she dies or remarry. What title she would get upon a new marriage would depend on the circumstances. That's entirely up to the monarch.

ELABORATION.

There are two things to take into consideration, should Frederik die while Mary is still Crown Princess.

Christian and his queen will formally outrank her, and so would his heir, because Mary is outside the Line of Succession.
However, family-wise Mary would be number two or three. Christian may be king but he will show proper respect for his mother, and so will his wife, even though she is queen and Mary is "only" a princess.
Christian's children would certainly be expected to publicly show proper respect to their grandmother.

That's why Henrik had his fit some years ago.
Henrik may consider himself the head of the family, but when it comes to state affairs he is outranked by his sons. The same thing with Mary as a widow.

[Madame Royale]

So if I understand correctly, Mary would not retain the title because Christian would succeed his father automatically and thus become Crown Prince?

I know in Britain there were a number of royal women who retained the title and distinction of 'Dowager Princess of Wales' when their husbands had pre-deceased them.

A) It was the title they maintained at the time of their spouses death and B) A Prince of Wales must be invested so until he is, he is not Prince of Wales and the title remains vacant. In the event of an investiture the former Princess of Wales then became the Dowager Princess of Wales much like a Duchess Consort will become a Dowager Duchess if her husband dies and her married son inherits the Dukedom. But of course we know things to be done differently across the way.

So being created HRH Princess Mary of Denmark in her own right would seem to be the only reasonable alternative. I shoud further wonder if it would then be considered appropriate for the mother of the King (upon her son's accession) to be known as 'HRH Princess Mary, The Princess Mother'.

[Muhler]

Christian will become crown prince on his eighteenth birthday, after having signed a pledge to obey the Constitution.
Until then Joachim (and most likely from time to time Mary as well) will formally be regent.

It's really for all eventualities. Should Denmark be invaded tomorrow and DRF fleeing and going into exile, Mary couldn't remain Crown Princess, because at some point Christian will become a crown prince and if he marries his wife will become crown princess, so if Mary was still Crown Princess, we would have a conflict on our hands. - Christian can't become an acknowledged king while he is in exile.

The concept of queen mother or mother to the king/prince, doesn't really exist in DK.
Mary may be referred to as "enkedronning" = dowager, as Queen Ingrid was from time to time, but it wouldn't be a title.

So Mary would simply be princess of Denmark, but she would be treated with the utmost respect.
My qualified guess is that she would stand between king Christian and the next crown prince/ss when greeting people and visiting dignitaries. A place of honour.

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Eeh, not sure what you mean.

I guess I was referring to British system. If, for example, Prince William were to predecease his father and grandmother, his wife would continue to be known as (Dowager) Duchess of Cambridge. I had assumed that should Frederik predecease his mother, Mary would be known as the Dowager Crown Princess (unless she re-marries).

If Frederik should die while he is still Crown Prince, Mary will lose her title as Crown Princess, because there can be only one crown princess. The heir or the wife of a crown prince. She will still remain a princess though.
If Frederik should die while he is king, Mary will keep her title as queen.
Should Joachim die before our Marie, she will keep her title as Princess until she dies or remarry. What title she would get upon a new marriage would depend on the circumstances. That's entirely up to the monarch.

ELABORATION.

There are two things to take into consideration, should Frederik die while Mary is still Crown Princess.

Christian and his queen will formally outrank her, and so would his heir, because Mary is outside the Line of Succession.
However, family-wise Mary would be number two or three. Christian may be king but he will show proper respect for his mother, and so will his wife, even though she is queen and Mary is "only" a princess.
Christian's children would certainly be expected to publicly show proper respect to their grandmother.

That's why Henrik had his fit some years ago.
Henrik may consider himself the head of the family, but when it comes to state affairs he is outranked by his sons. The same thing with Mary as a widow.

You answered my questions nicely, thakns!