The Future of the Danish Monarchy

[Muhler]

This is about a bet on words in QMII's New Year speech.

The odds are 4:1 on the word abdication.

 

[Terri Terri]

Oh Ok!!! Although why there should even be such a bet is beyond me! I put QMII in the same boat as QEII when it comes to abdication - will never happen!

 

[Ish]

It seems at least once a year people speculate that one or the other will abdicate. I remember last year there was a lot of determination that QEII would announce her abdication during her Christmas speech.

 

[royal rob]

While I agree neither Queen Margrethe or Queen Elizabeth will abdicate I don't think we can say its because they said so when they were young Queens. It's hard to imagine what we will be like in our 80's or 90's when we are in our 20's. The pain, tiredness or disabilities we might have and I don't think we should hold them to their words. If either wants to abdicate I say you have served your people well all these years now rest.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

This isn't just something QMII said when she was young. In the book "Margrethe" from 2007, she said: "Being a Queen is a profession, a job, a position that you can't just let go once you get home from work. It is there all the time. And it is there for life. To me, it is a responsibility that does not include abdication."

In 2010, she said: "We have no tradition of abdication in Denmark. To be a Queen is a job for life. It is my mission in life. That is how it has been in all the years Denmark has been a kingdom. And that is how I think it should remain."

And lastly, in 2012, she said: "I have always felt that it is a task that you are given, and that you have it as long as you live. That is my fundamental view. It is an integral part of the job that you have it for life."

Also, you can hardly say she was young exactly when she said the infamous, "I will remain on the throne until I fall off". IIRC it was said in 1996 – one year short of her Silver Jubilee.

 

[tommy100]

If there was going to be an abdication I doubt it would be announced in the New Year speech just after Mary and Fred spend several weeks on holiday in Auz.

That being said QM has said so often she won't abdicate that I believe she never will

 

[Zonk]

I understand your point but I think we can all agree that one's health can change in an instant. And I think that is Royal Rob's point.

In the case of QMII, however, if her health precludes her from fulfilling her duties, I think Frederik will have a more prominent role (i.e. similar to Harald before he became King and Charles now in Great Britain.).

And of course, we shall more of the Henrik for King debacle

 

[Muhler]

The only Danish king (King Erik) ever to abdicate voluntarily was back in the 1100's.
And that was because he was paralyzed.

But there is a considerable difference between being a monarch in 1100's and being a monarch today. Since then not even insanity has been reason enough to abdicate.
However, I can imagine QMII abdicating should she be diagnosed with Alzheimer or become more or less paralyzed due to a stroke or something like that. I.e. a situation where she is aware that she will be unable to fulfill her duty as a monarch.

While there are distinct advantages in abdications and I believe most Danes would feel she very much deserve a retirement, QMII as the devout Christian she is, IMO see being the Monarch as her destiny. Something she cannot opt out of.

Frederik may see it differently once he becomes king and Christian will be in his prime in about 35-40 years from now.
Because barring accidents and severe illness Frederik can be expected to live until he is at least in his 80's. And in pretty good working order on top of that!
And Christian can be expected to reach 100, so we are reaching a situation where a "prince Charles" will be the rule, rather than the exception. So based on that I believe abdications will be more common in this century.

 

[tommy100]

Poor health can be gotten around by either limiting appearances and travel or by creating a Regency, an abdication isn't necessary.

 

[LadyRohan]

Abdication in Denmark in 2016?
https://www.odds1.dk/nyheder/abdicerer-dronningen-i-en-rod-kjole

Seeing as that 'story' is from 2009, I think we can safely say it was a miss.

On topic, I think it's safe to say that Denmark, alongside Norway, Sweden and the United Kingdom, are among those kingdoms where an existential threat to the monarchy itself would be needed for an abdication to even be considered. In the Scandinavian kingdoms, the tradition is that of a regency in case of ill health, and an abdication is seen as a breach of the contract of monarchy, if you will, where one reigns for life. In the case of Denmark, the Queen has made it clear herself on countless occasions, that her reign is for life, and that she will never abdicate of her own free will.

 

[Roskilde]

Over Christmas, I was in Copenhagen for the first time and we spent christmas eve in a danish bodega with some Danes and lots of tourists from many different countries.

It was a lot of fun, and later in the evening I couldn't resist asking the Danes next to our table what they thought of the monarchy. Here is what they said (there was no disagreement among them):

- the monarchy is very popular
- Margrethe is very popular. She will not and should not abdicate
- Frederik and Mary are very popular. They will make a great King & Queen
- Henrik is not popular at all. They called him a 'french snob' and the 'french red wine clown'. His 'clown Danish' is terrible because he doesn't bother to learn it properly and he keeps embarrassing and humilitating the Queen (everything has been discussed at length on this forum: I want to be King, fleeing to Cayx like a sullen child, absence on the Queen's birthday). The Danes mentioned every single incident, Henrik-gate it seems to be a popular topic.
- Joachim is not popular either. He's an arrogant snob like his father.
- There seems to be indifference towards Marie (two of the Danes couldn't recall her name) but she's ok as she - like Mary - speeks much better Danish than Henrik.

So these are 'first hand opinions' and I thought they could add to this thread. Merry Christmas!

Hi DOM

How nice you've been in Copenhagen at Christmas. I hope you had a good Christmas trip here. Then you have probably experienced that not all Danish Christmas evenings are with Nordic beautiful white snow... Many of them are more gray, windy and rainy Did you visit Tivoli?

As an average Dane myself I will say that your 'first hand opinions' fits really well with the general Dane. Had you asked the next table the answers had most likely been exactly the same.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Hi DOM

How nice you've been in Copenhagen at Christmas. I hope you had a good Christmas trip here. Then you have probably experienced that not all Danish Christmas evenings are with Nordic beautiful white snow... Many of them are more gray, windy and rainy Did you visit Tivoli?

As an average Dane myself I will say that your 'first hand opinions' fits really well with the general Dane. Had you asked the next table the answers had most likely been exactly the same.

Thanks for your feedback

 

[Emmily]

DOM, would you share some "must sees" when in Copenhagen? My family is contemplating a trip there next year. If you can, thanks very much

 

[JessRulz]

Posts regarding Prince Henrik's retirement have been moved to a new thread: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...cial-duties-as-of-january-1-2016-a-39965.html

Please continue there.

 

[Roskilde]

This frontpage of the newspaper BT hit me today when I was on my way home from work. I can imagine BT later today brings it online...

"Every second Dane wish CP Frederik and CP Mary to take over now"

BT has made a Gallup survey showing that every second Dane wish Queen Margrethe to retire and then let CP Frederik take over.

The same Gallup survey again again shows that CP Mary and CP Frederik are the Danish royal family's most popular members, with Queen Margrethe right behind them.

I agree with the royal expert quoted in the article. This is an expression of that the Danes think it would be well deserved if Queen Margrethe retired, and that the Danes trust and really like Frederik and Mary more than it is an expression of that Danes are dissatisfied with the Queen.

I do not believe, and nor do the Danes that Margrethe abdicates. It's not her style. But it's a sign of that more and more Danes (including myself) think about why not change a tradition if it's for the better? So could it be a happy day full of joy instead of a day of with death, burial and mourning. F&M could take over with joy, we could have party in the streets and F&M could still ask Margrethe for advice the first years.

On the other hand, many (myself included) wish F&M, who are very hands on parents, will get a few more years with their young children. They already have a busy calender as the DRF's top profiles with a busy schedule. Let them have a few more years before they will get an even busier calender.

Last but not least, Queen Margrethe is still fresh, clever and very popular, and still have a very tight schedule. She still do it really well (even though it may hurt to see her walking alone now)

All in all, this is not going to happen IMO. Only if Margrethe become seriously ill.

And I also think both the Queen and the Crown Prince takes it with a smile. It's only a sign of that Queen Margrethe very safely can closes her eyes the day it happens.

 

[Muhler]

It's a big pad on the shoulders for M&F.

But we ought perhaps look more closely at the figures. 46 % agree to a more or lesser degree that Frederik should be king and QMII step back.

However, 47 % believe to a more or lesser degree that QMII should keep reigning.
So despite M&F's superstar status here in DK, QMII is still able to hold her ground and that's quite an accomplishment in this youth-fixated age.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It is all pretty shallow and in fact also a sort of disdain for the perfect way in which Queen Margrethe has executed her kingship in all these years. Her Dutch colleague Queen Beatrix has never ever topped the popularity polls, as always her old mother, her spouse and her daughter-in-law were more popular. The current King has also never ever topped the popularity polls. Not as Prince of Orange and not as King. It is just their role to be on a distance, keep some formality and that "clashes" with the freedom of a Mary, or a Máxima to sparkle, not to be too tied by protocol, etc.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

@Muhler - yet another proof of what I heard (snob) and you wrote (arrogant) about Joachim's perception, he's at the very end of the list.

 

[polyesco]

This frontpage of the newspaper BT hit me today when I was on my way home from work. I can imagine BT later today brings it online...

"Every second Dane wish CP Frederik and CP Mary to take over now"

BT has made a Gallup survey showing that every second Dane wish Queen Margrethe to retire and then let CP Frederik take over.

The same Gallup survey again again shows that CP Mary and CP Frederik are the Danish royal family's most popular members, with Queen Margrethe right behind them.

I agree with the royal expert quoted in the article. This is an expression of that the Danes think it would be well deserved if Queen Margrethe retired, and that the Danes trust and really like Frederik and Mary more than it is an expression of that Danes are dissatisfied with the Queen.

I do not believe, and nor do the Danes that Margrethe abdicates. It's not her style. But it's a sign of that more and more Danes (including myself) think about why not change a tradition if it's for the better? So could it be a happy day full of joy instead of a day of with death, burial and mourning. F&M could take over with joy, we could have party in the streets and F&M could still ask Margrethe for advice the first years.

On the other hand, many (myself included) wish F&M, who are very hands on parents, will get a few more years with their young children. They already have a busy calender as the DRF's top profiles with a busy schedule. Let them have a few more years before they will get an even busier calender.

Last but not least, Queen Margrethe is still fresh, clever and very popular, and still have a very tight schedule. She still do it really well (even though it may hurt to see her walking alone now)

All in all, this is not going to happen IMO. Only if Margrethe become seriously ill.

And I also think both the Queen and the Crown Prince takes it with a smile. It's only a sign of that Queen Margrethe very safely can closes her eyes the day it happens.

thank you for the note
I think this can only be good news for the DRF.
There is huge support for the future, Frederik and Mary; but at the same time there is support for the current monarch , Margrethe.

That people are ready for Frederik to be King shows not only that he is popular but also that people think he is ready, and in many ways he has already taken on more and more from the Queen.
And the Queen must be happy with these results, its a high mark of approval for her and her heir.

what is a little surprising is that even after Henrik's retirement debacle , Joachim is still slightly below. I think this year will be the year for Joachim to shine a bit more than his father

 

[Blog Real]

The Queen Margrethe seems to be well and in good health. Things will happen naturally.

 

[Muhler]

@Muhler - yet another proof of what I heard (snob) and you wrote (arrogant) about Joachim's perception, he's at the very end of the list.

Alas, someone has to be at the bottom.

Better it's one of the "native" DRF members then Mary or our Marie.

 

[MARG]

Ah Muhler, you are such a gentleman! But I have to admit that with all the wailing about Henrik I was amazed that Joachim was last. I think he will have to really put himself out to improve Danes perception of him. I hope he does.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

I definitely agree that Joachim should start working on his reputation in 2016. It's really quite telling that he is below Henrik in that poll following the amounts of, eh, less than good press Henrik got in 2015. I really hadn't seen that one coming.

 

[ROYAL NORWAY]

Thanks to the Danish members here who update us.

It's a big pad on the shoulders for M&F.

But we ought perhaps look more closely at the figures. 46 % agree to a more or lesser degree that Frederik should be king and QMII step back.

However, 47 % believe to a more or lesser degree that QMII should keep reigning.
So despite M&F's superstar status here in DK, QMII is still able to hold her ground and that's quite an accomplishment in this youth-fixated age.

You're right, it is quite an accomplishment in this youth-fixated age, and we must remember that these polls change constantly.

This is some of the polls.

10.04.2010
Kan en dronning gå på pension? - Indland

She should be on the throne until she dies: 42.6%
She should abdicate now: 23.5%
She should abdicate within 10 years: 22.1%

16.04.2010
Halvdelen af danskerne: Bliv siddende, Margrethe - Politiken.dk

She should be on the throne until she dies: Almost 50%
She should abdicate: 37%

02.01.2012
Danskerne vil have Frederik på tronen - Royale | www.bt.dk

She should abdicate within 10 years: 40%
She should abdicate now: 11%

10.01.2012
Flest danskere vil holde på dronningen | Nyheder | DR

She should not abdicate: 41%
She should abdicate within 10 years: Almost as many
She should abdicate within 5 years: 25%
She should abdicate now: 8%

04.08.2013
Danskerne: Træd tilbage, Margrethe - TV 2

She should be on the throne until she dies: 30%
She should abdicate before she dies: 51% and 40% of them would like to see that it happens as soon as possible.

23.05.2015
Folket til Daisy: Glem alt om otium“ Ekstra Bladet

She should be on the throne as long as her she health permits it: 60%

It is all pretty shallow and in fact also a sort of disdain for the perfect way in which Queen Margrethe has executed her kingship in all these years. Her Dutch colleague Queen Beatrix has never ever topped the popularity polls, as always her old mother, her spouse and her daughter-in-law were more popular. The current King has also never ever topped the popularity polls. Not as Prince of Orange and not as King. It is just their role to be on a distance, keep some formality and that "clashes" with the freedom of a Mary, or a Máxima to sparkle, not to be too tied by protocol, etc.

You're right, Queen Margrethe II (who I really like) has been a very good monarch with many good qualities, but she's far from perfect in my eyes. I've followed her for a long time in my 27 years old life and I have read several books, watched several old and new documentaries about her and seen her three times, the last time was at Eidsvold in Norway in 2014.

She is very conservative, old-fashioned, she can seem a bit arrogant, she does not like being talked to as a normal person (something Joachim seems to have inherited from her), and she runs the monarchy with an iron fist. Crown Prince Frederik told in an interview/documentary in 2004 that she gets annoyed if someone gets up from the dinner table before her. She has also said/admitted that she was a bad mother, and that she was not there enough for her husband (I don't know what she meant by that), she has also said/admitted that she is not good with children.

And I don't mean to be rude, but why must you always compare the other monarchies with the Dutch monarchy? Queen Margrethe has topped popularity polls several times, most recently last year and Crown Prince Frederik topped one in 2014.

It's just in recent years that Mary and Frederik have been polled more popular than Margrethe, and the reason for that is that Frederik and Mary are more informal, good with people etc and of course youth.

 

[Muhler]

Thanks, Royal Norway.

That's an interesting development and also an indication of how M&F have developed, not only professionally but more crucially in the eyes of the people.

And I agree. QMII certainly has her faults, but in contrast one of her most important traits is that she is willing admit her flaws and at least to some extent work on them.
QMII is elitist, not in the bad definition of the word, because she actually has a solid basis for being elitist! - The average IQ in a room has a tendency to double when she walks in the door!
But she's by no means folksy. If she wasn't a monarch I'd classify her as a high-cultured intellectual.
Ironically, I actually believe it's QMII somewhat aloofness that is one of the keys to her success. It feels natural to maintain a natural distance to her IMO.
In other words while she is tremendously respected, she is way more respected than popular. - And that may actually last longer...

Joachim is very much QMII's son!
He sometimes tries to be folksy, but that falls to ground on the spot, because it doesn't come natural to him, as with Frederik. So IMO Joachim shouldn't try. Let him retain his more formal distance, because that appeals to quite a number of people as well.

However, I agree with Archduchess Zelia.
Even though I find an almost perverted pleasure in defending Joachim, he has made a serious error.
He had at most one year after the sale of Schackenborg to define his new role. IMO he hasn't! As a consequence he is now running out of time and if he doesn't step up and put in a lot more effort in his royal duties. I.e. being seen much more out and about. - He will get the public stamp as an idler and that will almost impossible to erase.
So to conclude bluntly: Joachim needs to get his finger out - now!

 

[GracieGiraffe]

From the evolution of these polls, if I'm reading them right, Danes are coming around to the idea that a monarch does not have to be on the throne until death. That might be because of the advancing age of the Queen or seeing that abdications occurred in three other European countries in the last few years and the sky did not fall.

Personally, I think a monarch should stay on the throne as long as they are mentally and physically comfortable doing so. In this case, I also think Fred and Mary's children are too young for this transition. Now is not the right time.

 

[ROYAL NORWAY]

Thanks, Royal Norway.

That's an interesting development and also an indication of how M&F have developed, not only professionally but more crucially in the eyes of the people.

And I agree. QMII certainly has her faults, but in contrast one of her most important traits is that she is willing admit her flaws and at least to some extent work on them.
QMII is elitist, not in the bad definition of the word, because she actually has a solid basis for being elitist! - The average IQ in a room has a tendency to double when she walks in the door!
But she's by no means folksy. If she wasn't a monarch I'd classify her as a high-cultured intellectual.
Ironically, I actually believe it's QMII somewhat aloofness that is one of the keys to her success. It feels natural to maintain a natural distance to her IMO.
In other words while she is tremendously respected, she is way more respected than popular. - And that may actually last longer...

Joachim is very much QMII's son!
He sometimes tries to be folksy, but that falls to ground on the spot, because it doesn't come natural to him, as with Frederik. So IMO Joachim shouldn't try. Let him retain his more formal distance, because that appeals to quite a number of people as well.

However, I agree with Archduchess Zelia.
Even though I find an almost perverted pleasure in defending Joachim, he has made a serious error.
He had at most one year after the sale of Schackenborg to define his new role. IMO he hasn't! As a consequence he is now running out of time and if he doesn't step up and put in a lot more effort in his royal duties. I.e. being seen much more out and about. - He will get the public stamp as an idler and that will almost impossible to erase.
So to conclude bluntly: Joachim needs to get his finger out - now!

I agree with everything.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...]
She is very conservative, old-fashioned, she can seem a bit arrogant, she does not like being talked to as a normal person (something Joachim seems to have inherited from her), and she runs the monarchy with an iron fist. Crown Prince Frederik told in an interview/documentary in 2004 that she gets annoyed if someone gets up from the dinner table before her. [...]

All these points seem only big fat super pros for Margrethe to me. It are all appeals for her. She is Her Majesty The Queen. She is Margrethe Alexandrine Thorhildur Ingrid af Slesvig-Holsten-Sønderborg-Glücksborg, scion of a centuries old dynasty of monarchs. It is in the nature of a monarchy to be conservative (= to conserve, to keep, to maintain). If there is someone who can demand basal respect for her and what she represents, if there is someone who has the right to run "her business" (the monarchy) with an iron fist, and if there is someone who has the right to be annoyed for not having the politesse to remain seated at her dinner table, then it is Margrethe... Brava, Girl Power!

[...]

what is a little surprising is that even after Henrik's retirement debacle , Joachim is still slightly below. I think this year will be the year for Joachim to shine a bit more than his father

Can you explain the qualification retirement debacle? May a man in his Eighties and after 50 years of service to Queen and country not slow down, in good consultation with his spouse and his family?

[...]

Personally, I think a monarch should stay on the throne as long as they are mentally and physically comfortable doing so. In this case, I also think Fred and Mary's children are too young for this transition. Now is not the right time.

What have the ages of the children of the Crown Prince to do with a transition? When Queen Margrethe dies tomorrow, Frederik is King anyway, no matter the ages of his children. The children of King Felipe, King Philippe and King Willem-Alexander all are more or less the same age category as the children of Crown Prince Frederik. I don't think the fact that their respective fathers became King has done them any harm at all.

 

[polyesco]

Can you explain the qualification retirement debacle? May a man in his Eighties and after 50 years of service to Queen and country not slow down, in good consultation with his spouse and his family?

maybe debacle was a poor choice of words on my part...
but his year before "retiring" certainly brought debate
Maybe Henrik should remember that with retirement there is usually a pay cut

What have the ages of the children of the Crown Prince to do with a transition? When Queen Margrethe dies tomorrow, Frederik is King anyway, no matter the ages of his children. The children of King Felipe, King Philippe and King Willem-Alexander all are more or less the same age category as the children of Crown Prince Frederik. I don't think the fact that their respective fathers became King has done them any harm at all.

They would see less of their parents for starters. Would this cause "harm", only the future can tell. I have seen some debate about whether Leonor and Amalia as heirs, should be "seen" more.
Being the grandchild of the current monarch is different from being heir. For example, with William. Would he have been allowed to enjoy a career as a pilot if he was heir already?
But Im getting off topic

 

[GracieGiraffe]

What have the ages of the children of the Crown Prince to do with a transition? When Queen Margrethe dies tomorrow, Frederik is King anyway, no matter the ages of his children.

It is true Margrethe can die tomorrow; such things we have no control of. But she does have control of a decision on whether to step down, and one would think she would consider her grandchildren.

The children of King Felipe, King Philippe and King Willem-Alexander all are more or less the same age category as the children of Crown Prince Frederik. I don't think the fact that their respective fathers became King has done them any harm at all.

Who said anything about "harm" per se? Well-being is a continuum. I used the words "better off". I do think children are better off with parents who have more free time for them.

As for the children of three other royal houses, I'm not sure how you know what the effect of the early transitions of their fathers to King has had on them. Are you privy to what goes on behind the closed doors of not one, but three royal houses?