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  #241  
Old 05-21-2011, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Alexandra would have been brilliant as CP. .
See below! Maybe she was a tad too sharp for her own good?

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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
On an intellectual level I think its better not to be too clever because
in the long run the job can become very dull and boring, some of the
CPs are already visibly bored after only a few years.
Not sure whether I agree! IMO as a royal the trick is to make
whatever you're being introduced to interesting! Again IMO it takes
some intellectual prowess! However if it's your ambition to write a
thesis on nuclear physics then you're probably not in the best position
as a member of a royal family !

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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
I am saying this because many posters seem to think that Marie is
not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I agree but it doesnt matter
for the job. By the way, I think Marys intellectual background
and alledged "career" is quite overrated too but thats another
topic.
The immediate and superficial impression you get of Marie is that
her IQ does not match that of Alexandra (with the analytical brain
of a former employee in the financial field). However that does
not mean that Marie is among the blunt knives of the drawer,
it just means that it's a different kind of intelligence. I doubt
that Prince Joachim would have married an intellectually challenged
woman for the simple reason that it would be difficult for such a
person to maneouvre in a royal environment!

Viv
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  #242  
Old 05-21-2011, 04:49 PM
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Unlike Alex, Marie received a Bachelor
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  #243  
Old 05-22-2011, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by camelot23ca View Post
I think that many jobs, even those that look stimulating and exciting to outsiders, become dull and boring to those doing them after awhile. I don't think someone needs to have high intelligence to be a successful royal but I don't see it ever being a drawback, either.
True but unlike royals, average people can do something else if they get bored, change jobs, change locations. Royals are trapped with what they are doing for life. And unlike in other jobs, where people are in charge of the subject, very often royals only pop by for the "job" = opening something or do a speech on a specific subject that most times somebody else has written for them, they dont have any responsibilty other than drawing attention to the course by being present. For an intelligent person, a "doer", this must be really frustrating.

In terms of intelligence I think its far more important for a royal to have emotional intelligence rather than academical intelligence. You can have five different bachelors and be academically overprepared but where is the point if you wont really get connected to people.
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  #244  
Old 05-22-2011, 03:54 AM
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I don't know it Marie would have married Joachim if he would be the heir.
I don't agree that Marie doesn't have a strong need for attention and recognition. IMO she has it, same as Alex, and this is why the role as second wife of the spare is good for her, she gets the attention and recognition, but doesn't have to do a lot/work hard for it. After all she has been and still is giving regular interviews to the danish media. Even when being approached on the street she stops and gives interviews. She wouldn't do that if she didn't like it

I think also Marie's choice of job is quiet significant, although owning a Bachelor, she worked as an assistant to her stepfather. Which doesn't necessarily mean that she isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. More that she is willing to let others take care of her, while she (in theorie) would be able to take care of herself. Oh well, but why bother, when it is much easier to let others take care of all the unpleasantnesses...

Paraphrasing Muhler, Marie is in it for the fun, but I doubt that she is giving the future of the monarchy, and how it can be adapted and transitioned a lot of thought.



Do you mean a short attention span, or an illness like dislexia which Victoria of Sweden has?
Something along the lines of an IQ of say 50 with a reading age of 5 at the chronological age of an adult - not a learning difficulty like Victoria or Beatrice of York (both of whom are dyslexic - a completely treatable condition) but one where they are in old fashioned terminology 'dumb'.

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That's one of the major problems with a monarchy.

The best thing to do I think, is to be open about it and aknowledge that say a younger sister is better at dealing with a number of jobs than the monarch himself.
It is after all a royal family, or a royal team if you will.

One who is obviously ill suited to become a monarch, may be quietly bypassed. That happened here in DK in the 50's, when Margrethe was selected as the successor instead and there wasn't a public uproar over that.

No - they had a referedum to allow the king's daughters to inherit rather than ignore half the population but what about now - gender blind succession etc means that you can't lie to the public and say 'oh it is so unfair that my daughters can't inherit the throne because they are girls' and convince the people to change the constitution.

It would take an Act of Parliament and the people would want to know the reason - but what if that person was to have children - where would they fit etc?
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  #245  
Old 05-22-2011, 06:06 AM
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IMO, the good monarch must be able to run the country like the absolutist kings of old. This means insight into economics, politics, anthropology, Military affairs, arts, science etc. etc. This does not mean that they have to be expercts in any of those subjects, but they must be able to see through the basics. The ability to hire good (expert) advisors will cover the detail. So a good general education must be the way to go.

Empathy and social skills are a given, but also hard to learn. Either you've got it or you don't. If you haven't got it, you need to be able to compensate. This can be done in several ways. Focusing on thing you know and letting others (siblings, heirs etc.) do the general stuff (delegating) would take you far.
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  #246  
Old 05-22-2011, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
No - they had a referedum to allow the king's daughters to inherit rather than ignore half the population but what about now - gender blind succession etc means that you can't lie to the public and say 'oh it is so unfair that my daughters can't inherit the throne because they are girls' and convince the people to change the constitution.

It would take an Act of Parliament and the people would want to know the reason - but what if that person was to have children - where would they fit etc?
That's what I meant by quietly bypassing the heir.
People in the 50's knew perfectly well why the Law of Succession was changed, That was debated openly.
The official reason was that it was "unfair" that a daughter of an heir could not become a monarch. That fooled no one...
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  #247  
Old 05-22-2011, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
That's what I meant by quietly bypassing the heir.
People in the 50's knew perfectly well why the Law of Succession was changed, That was debated openly.
The official reason was that it was "unfair" that a daughter of an heir could not become a monarch. That fooled no one...

So you would advocate a referendum to bypass say Christian if he turned out to have low learning ability i.e. if he never learnt to read properly.

This though is a problem now more so than with the situation in the 50s - as the referendum was able to justify giving the throne to the children of the monarch but what if the heir apparent - the eldest child - simply isn't capable of learning - how do you solve that situation - without necessarily getting rid of the monarchy - which would be a good thing anyway as this situation wouldn't arise then.

You won't be able to have another smokescreen referendum as was possible on the 50s - so what could be done?

The situation has to be settled - answer - abolish the monarch and have elected leaders who have to have certain qualifications other than who happened to provide the genetic makeup and birth order.

What about the rights of inheritance of any children this bypassed heir would have - surely as the eldest child of the eldest child that child has the right of inheritance - so say Christian is unable to learn but marries young and has a son - what would you do then? We aren't talking about a person who is unaware of the situation but one with a very low IQ who is aware of things but simply can't learn. It would be a lawyers dream fighting for the rights of the heir apparent who hasn't the brainpower to hold a conversation - but by birth has the right to be monarch.
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  #248  
Old 05-22-2011, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Thank you Mrs. LyndaW


As for the Berleburg wedding, now that's going to be interesting! I doubt very much QMII will stay at home. And Benedikte will of course not be Regent, so that leaves Joachim and Frederik. - Unless, my pet-scenario: Mary will be regent.
I didn't know Mary could be regent. What are the requirements for being regent?
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  #249  
Old 05-22-2011, 11:50 AM
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Usually, you have to actually be line for the throne. Therefore, Crown Princess Mary is currently not able to be Regent/Rigsforstander, unless a specific document is created to give her that ability (like what happened with Queen Ingrid when Queen Margrethe took the throne). However, the case with Queen Ingrid was different as there were only one or two adults who could be Regent/Rigsforstander, and one of them (Princess Benedikte) was living in Germany.

Currently the following people can be Regent/Rigsforstander:
Crown Prince Frederik, Prince Joachim, Princess Benedikte, Princess Elisabeth.

While Crown Princess Mary may become able to be Rigsforstander in the future (probably after her husband takes the throne), I don't believe it will happen within the next few years. Maybe Princess Elisabeth will be Rigsforstander during the Berleburg wedding?
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  #250  
Old 05-22-2011, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
So you would advocate a referendum to bypass say Christian if he turned out to have low learning ability i.e. if he never learnt to read properly.

This though is a problem now more so than with the situation in the 50s - as the referendum was able to justify giving the throne to the children of the monarch but what if the heir apparent - the eldest child - simply isn't capable of learning - how do you solve that situation - without necessarily getting rid of the monarchy - which would be a good thing anyway as this situation wouldn't arise then.

You won't be able to have another smokescreen referendum as was possible on the 50s - so what could be done?

The situation has to be settled - answer - abolish the monarch and have elected leaders who have to have certain qualifications other than who happened to provide the genetic makeup and birth order.

What about the rights of inheritance of any children this bypassed heir would have - surely as the eldest child of the eldest child that child has the right of inheritance - so say Christian is unable to learn but marries young and has a son - what would you do then? We aren't talking about a person who is unaware of the situation but one with a very low IQ who is aware of things but simply can't learn. It would be a lawyers dream fighting for the rights of the heir apparent who hasn't the brainpower to hold a conversation - but by birth has the right to be monarch.
If Christian should be mentally retarded (substitute with current politically correct expression) then he cannot fulfill his role as monarch. It's as simple as that.
He needs to be able to comprehend,what he is doing and what his role is.
In such a case he would simply be bypassed by Isabella.
In theory a lot of things could happen to Christian which would lead him to be bypassed.
He could be comatose after an accident.
He could become severely paralyzed after an accident.
He could commit a serious crime.
He could convert to Hinduism.
- And so on.
All of these examples could and would most likely lead to him to either being bypassed or being "advised" to abdicate alternatively renounce his claim on the throne.

No referendum will be needed.

As for the children of a bypassed heir. That's an interesting question. I guess it would depend on whether the oldest child of the deposed heir is aknowledged as the next in the line, as Christian is. If the bypassed heir does not have any children at the time he is bypassed, tough luck for his future children... They are out.
It would be another matter if Frederik were to die tomorrow. Then Joachim would step in as Regent for Christian until he turns 18, because Christian is aknowledged as the next heir. As such Nikolai would not become king.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnaC View Post
I didn't know Mary could be regent. What are the requirements for being regent?
In theory everyone who fulfills the following requirements can be appointed Rigsforstander. (Only the Crown Prince can be Regent, everybody else act as a Rigsforstander. For simplicity that is also translated to Regent, as the function is basically the same).

- A Danish citizen.
- Adhering to the Lutheran faith. (ADDED: I'll check and verify this as I'm not 100 % certain. - Confirmed).
- Of legal age. I.e. 18.
- Having signed a pledge to obey the Danish Constitution.
- Worthy. I.e. of a good moral standing, respected. No criminal record or "unfortunate" behaviour.
- Competent. I.e. able to fullfill the position. And of course of sound mind. You cannot be insane.

The four first requirements are a must! The next two are understood to be included among the terms.

I cannot become a Rigsforstander, because I'm not a member of the State Church, and as such don't adhere to the Lutheran faith.
My wife could. She's still adhering to the Lutheran faith, at least officially. As for the last three requirements. Well, I may think she fullfills those criterias as well.

That is of course putting things on the edge.
However, there is nothing to hinder Mary, Prince Henrik or our Marie from acting as a Rigsforstander.
Usually QMII appoints someone who is in direct line for the throne but Queen Ingrid has acted as a Rigsforstander and when his time comes, Frederik may be more liberal in that respect, who knows?

Should QMII die within the next couple of years, there will suddenly be an acute shortage of adults in the line for the throne. At least until Nikolai and Felix turn 18.

ADDED:
Here are the paragraphs regarding a Rigsforstander. The wording is archaic and I'll write a summary tomorrow, TV is calling...
§ 9. Saafremt Kongen, enten formedelst Bortreise eller Svaghed, finder, at der bør udnævnes en Rigsforstander, sammenkalder han Rigsdagen og forelægger den et Lovforslag herom.
§ 10. Bliver Kongen ude af Stand til at regjere, sammenkalder Statsraadet Rigsdagen. Naar da den forenede Rigsdag med tre Fjerdedele af de afgivne Stemmer erkjender Nødvendigheden, udnævner den en Rigsforstander og anordner, om fornødent gjøres, et Formynderskab.
§ 11. Er der Anledning til at frygte for, at Thronfølgeren ved Kongens Død vil være umyndig eller af anden Grund ude af Stand til selv at regjere, bestemmes ved Lov en Rigsforstander, og et Formynderskab anordnes af Kongen. Rigsforstanderen kan ikke deeltage i Formynderskabet.
§ 12. Rigsforstanderen aflægger den for Kongen foreskrevne Eed og udøver, saalænge Rigsforstanderskabet varer, i Kongens Navn alle dennes Rettigheder; dog kan han ikke foreslaae Forandring af Arvefølgen.
§ 13. Naar Kongen er død, sammentræder 14de Dagen derefter uden Sammenkaldelse den sidstvalgte Rigsdag.
§ 14. Er der ingen Thronfølger, eller kan Thronfølgeren eller Rigsforstanderen ikke strax tiltræde Regjeringen, føres den af Statsraadet, indtil fornøden Bestemmelse er tagen af Rigsdagen.
§ 15. Er Thronfølgeren eller Rigsforstanderen fraværende, bestemmer den forenede Rigsdag, inden hvilken Tid han har at vende tilbage. Er Thronfølgeren umyndig, eller af anden Grund ikke i Stand til at regjere, uden at Rigsforstander og Formynderskab er bestemt, udnævner den forenede Rigsdag Rigsforstanderen og beskikker Formynderskabet. Er der ingen Thronfølger, vælger den forenede Rigsdag en Konge og fastsætter den fremtidige Arvefølge.
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  #251  
Old 05-22-2011, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
If Christian should be mentally retarded (substitute with current politically correct expression) then he cannot fulfill his role as monarch. It's as simple as that.
He needs to be able to comprehend,what he is doing and what his role is.
In such a case he would simply be bypassed by Isabella.
Are you sure about that, Muhler? Denmark have had a king who wasn´t substituted by the next in line. IIRC then it was Frederik VII.
I think that if Prince Christian was in a state where he couldn´t take on the role of a monarch, then he would have to renounce his claim to the throne.
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  #252  
Old 05-23-2011, 03:42 AM
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Are you sure about that, Muhler? Denmark have had a king who wasn´t substituted by the next in line. IIRC then it was Frederik VII.
I think that if Prince Christian was in a state where he couldn´t take on the role of a monarch, then he would have to renounce his claim to the throne.
That was in the age of absolutism.
His son became Regent after disposing of Struense, in what was a de facto coup d'etat.

The Constitution actually cover a situation where the heir is not mentally fit to rule. - More on that later, I'm pretty busy right now.
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  #253  
Old 05-23-2011, 03:55 AM
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I am talking about a slow learner who is fully aware of their rights but can't fully excercise them - they can't sign an abdication because they can't understand it - so what happens.

Obviously they have rights and the next in line could be a Regent but they couldn't surely become the monarch - that would be an usurpation and illegal.

This discussion came about because people believe that the monarch should be well-educated but let's cross to Britain - would Harry qualify as 'well-educated' considering he never went to uni and didn't get the grades to go to uni.
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  #254  
Old 05-23-2011, 06:25 AM
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Here is what the first (democratic) Constitution of 1849 has to say in regards to Regent/Rigsforstander.
It has to be said that back then monarchs didn't travel as much as now and with modern forms of communication and transport it's now very easy to get in touch with the monarch, when he is away from his realm. The Danish monarch had much more political power back then as well.
Rather than translating the text to "modern", I'll interprete and explain it instead.

§ 9. If the king, due to illness or because he is away, find that a Rigsforstander should be appointed. He will convene the Parliament and propose a bill. - That is no longer necessary. QMII just sign a document statiing that X will be Rigsforstander until she returns and then informs the government.

§10. If the king is unable to rule, the State Council (the government) will convene the Parliament. When the total Parliament, with 75 % of the votes that is casted, find it necessary it will appoint a Rigsforstander and if necessary a Guardian. - The Rigsforstander rules the country on behalf of the king, the Guardian look after the king's interests.

§11. Is there reason to fear that the Heir upon the death of the king will not be of legal age or for another reason unable to rule himself, a law will be passed which appoint a Rigsforstander and a guardianship is appointed by the king. - If the heir is under the age of 18, comatose, in rehab because he's a drugaddict, in captivity and so on.

§12. The Rigsforstander take the appropriate pledge/oath before the king and excerzise as long as he is Rigsforstander all rights by the monarch in the name of the king. He cannot propose changes in the order of succession however. - Nowadays they sign a pledge to obey the Constitution.

§13. When the king is dead, the Parliament will convene on the fourteenth day. - This is achaic legislation and presumably the Parliament approve that the succession is correct and that no coup d'etat has taken place.

§14. If there is no heir or the heir cannot lead the government at once, the State Council will head the government until the Parliament has decided what to do.
- The monarch is no longer head of the government. QMII is head of the State Council. The government is the udøvende magt = the executive power and act formally in the name of Queen Margrethe. The PM will run the store until the Parliament has decided what to do. Interestingly the first or one of the first things a newly appointed Rigsforstander has to do, is to approve himself.

§15. Is the heir or Rigsforstander absent, the convened Parliament will state a timeperiod in which he must return.
If the heir is not of legal age or for another reason unable to rule. And no Rigsforstander and Guardianship has been appointed, the convened Parliament appoints a Rigsforstander and authorise a Guardianship.
If there is no heir, the convened Parliament will elect a king and determine the future Order of Succession.
- Lets break this up in three parts:
A) Is used if Frederik is sitting in Australia with his arms crossed and sulking, because "I will not return home to be king"! Or if he is abducted by aliens or lost at sea.
B) Is used if Frederik and QMII dies before Christian has turned 18, or if he is mentally or physically unfit to become king.
C) If there is no (immediate) successor at all. - There is no "King Ralph" scenario here.

§ 9. Saafremt Kongen, enten formedelst Bortreise eller Svaghed, finder, at der bør udnævnes en Rigsforstander, sammenkalder han Rigsdagen og forelægger den et Lovforslag herom.
§ 10. Bliver Kongen ude af Stand til at regjere, sammenkalder Statsraadet Rigsdagen. Naar da den forenede Rigsdag med tre Fjerdedele af de afgivne Stemmer erkjender Nødvendigheden, udnævner den en Rigsforstander og anordner, om fornødent gjøres, et Formynderskab.
§ 11. Er der Anledning til at frygte for, at Thronfølgeren ved Kongens Død vil være umyndig eller af anden Grund ude af Stand til selv at regjere, bestemmes ved Lov en Rigsforstander, og et Formynderskab anordnes af Kongen. Rigsforstanderen kan ikke deeltage i Formynderskabet.
§ 12. Rigsforstanderen aflægger den for Kongen foreskrevne Eed og udøver, saalænge Rigsforstanderskabet varer, i Kongens Navn alle dennes Rettigheder; dog kan han ikke foreslaae Forandring af Arvefølgen.
§ 13. Naar Kongen er død, sammentræder 14de Dagen derefter uden Sammenkaldelse den sidstvalgte Rigsdag.
§ 14. Er der ingen Thronfølger, eller kan Thronfølgeren eller Rigsforstanderen ikke strax tiltræde Regjeringen, føres den af Statsraadet, indtil fornøden Bestemmelse er tagen af Rigsdagen.
§ 15. Er Thronfølgeren eller Rigsforstanderen fraværende, bestemmer den forenede Rigsdag, inden hvilken Tid han har at vende tilbage. Er Thronfølgeren umyndig, eller af anden Grund ikke i Stand til at regjere, uden at Rigsforstander og Formynderskab er bestemt, udnævner den forenede Rigsdag Rigsforstanderen og beskikker Formynderskabet. Er der ingen Thronfølger, vælger den forenede Rigsdag en Konge og fastsætter den fremtidige Arvefølge.
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  #255  
Old 05-23-2011, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
That was in the age of absolutism.
His son became Regent after disposing of Struense, in what was a de facto coup d'etat.

The Constitution actually cover a situation where the heir is not mentally fit to rule. - More on that later, I'm pretty busy right now.
Ahh, I knew there was something about that - thanks for the clarification
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Old 05-23-2011, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I am talking about a slow learner who is fully aware of their rights but can't fully excercise them - they can't sign an abdication because they can't understand it - so what happens.

Obviously they have rights and the next in line could be a Regent but they couldn't surely become the monarch - that would be an usurpation and illegal.

This discussion came about because people believe that the monarch should be well-educated but let's cross to Britain - would Harry qualify as 'well-educated' considering he never went to uni and didn't get the grades to go to uni.
I don't think that Harry would fall into the category, because he would be able to sign an abdication and understand it

But as it has happened in Denmark before, that the next in line was bypassed, which led to Margrethe being Queen today, I think it could be done again
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Old 05-23-2011, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by nwinther View Post
IMO, the good monarch must be able to run the country like the absolutist kings of old. This means insight into economics, politics, anthropology, Military affairs, arts, science etc. etc. This does not mean that they have to be expercts in any of those subjects, but they must be able to see through the basics. The ability to hire good (expert) advisors will cover the detail. So a good general education must be the way to go.

Empathy and social skills are a given, but also hard to learn. Either you've got it or you don't. If you haven't got it, you need to be able to compensate. This can be done in several ways. Focusing on thing you know and letting others (siblings, heirs etc.) do the general stuff (delegating) would take you far.
I agree with you. While I think education is important I do believe that you don't have to go to university to be a good monarch. After all Queen Elizabeth II never had any "formal" schooling and yet quite a few people think she is a great monarch.

I also think that you make a great point about people skills. Although one can improve their ability to master some things, like small talk, some individuals are just not "people friendly". No university education is going to get rid of that.

One of the things about having a big royal family is having people who you can call-up to take over the jobs that need to be done but that do not quite work for you. It is better to have a monarch who knows they are not perfect than one who thinks they are great at everything.
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  #258  
Old 05-24-2011, 08:08 AM
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At the Danish royal Court a Fredrik succeeds a Christian and so on..
Prince Knud's first son is Ingolf, he should never be a heir because Crown Prince Frederik just got married. But his second son is called Christian because the Crown Prince had daughters...
If something dramatic should happen with the young Prince Christian, Denmark will have a King Vincent !
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Old 05-24-2011, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia
At the Danish royal Court a Fredrik succeeds a Christian and so on..
Prince Knud's first son is Ingolf, he should never be a heir because Crown Prince Frederik just got married. But his second son is called Christian because the Crown Prince had daughters...
If something dramatic should happen with the young Prince Christian, Denmark will have a King Vincent !
I thought Isabella comes before Vincent due to recent changes in the law.

Edit: just checked this
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_..._Danish_throne
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Old 05-24-2011, 08:16 AM
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Yes, in the unlikely instance that something were to happen to Christian before/after he became King and died without any heirs of his own, Isabella would become the next in line/Queen.

As for a King Vincent - chances are he would reign as a King Frederik (XI), as one of his middle names is Frederik and it continues with the Christian-Frederik alternation. Much like George VI reigned as George instead of his given name Albert.

And with Count Ingolf (formerly Prince Ingolf), had he become King, chances are he would have reigned as either Christian or Frederik as well, depending on who he succeeded (he has both Christian and Frederik as middle names - Ingolf Christian Frederik Knud Harald Gorm Gustav Viggo Valdemar Aage).
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