The Danish Order of Precendence

[caroline mathilda]

I dont' remember Margaret curtseying to Elizabeth but I could have just missed it.

Sorry for the BRF references, but they are the family that I follow the most.

Does anyone know if the sisters of Beatrix or Harald or Carl Gustaf curtsey to their siblings?

They only reason for Not doing so is because they are siblings of the monarchs and of the royal blood? I don't know.

Princess Margaret did curtsey to both Queens.

 

[Maura724]

Does anyone know if the sisters of Beatrix or Harald or Carl Gustaf curtsey to their siblings?

I've never seen either of Harald's sisters curtsy to him, but I'm not sure I've ever seen any of his children or children-in-law curtsy. I don't think the NRF curtsies as much as the DRF, so it would be hard to learn anything about the "rules" from them.

The Dutch and the Swedes, I have no idea.

 

[Aotearoagal]

- One might fear he would get another fit!

Do you think so? Surely if he is honest with himself, he would recognise that Mary's qualifications and abilities, regardless of people's subjective response to her full-on personality (smart, modern, progressive, hard-working, assertive) are a little more astute than his (old-fashioned, upper-class, perhaps a tad lethargic)!
Well, perhaps he might not! But the Danish people seem to "get" her!

 

[Lumutqueen]

I dont' remember Margaret curtseying to Elizabeth but I could have just missed it.

She curtseyed at her own wedding, and the coronation.

 

[Madame Royale]

The Unity List.
Liberal Alliance.
The Conservatives.
Socialist People's Party.
The Social Democrats.
The Liberals.
The Danish People's Party.
The Radicals.

From a Social Democrat view, and not entirely joking, they can be divided into this:
The Social Democrats. - The mother party.
The Unity list. - Extreme left wing Social Democrats, who wish to turn DK into a soviet.
Liberal Alliance. - Anti-social and selfish, who could be good Social Democrats, if they see the Light.
The Conservatives. - They could be good Social Democrats, if they realised the need for sharing their wealth with everybody else.
The Socialist People's Party. - Left wing, Social Democrats. Who should drink less herbal tea and stop singing so many songs praising the whales.
The Liberals. - Middle class Social Democrats. With a house, a medium sized dog, a medium sized car, and 1.8 children. Both parents are employed.
The Danish People's Party. - Right wing, nationalist Social Democrats with a slight xenophobic streak.
The Radicals - Intellectual Social Democrats.

I enjoy your posts, Muhler. Informative, not without humour and always to the point. They are a pleasure to read

 

[Muhler]

Do you think so? Surely if he is honest with himself, he would recognise that Mary's qualifications and abilities, regardless of people's subjective response to her full-on personality (smart, modern, progressive, hard-working, assertive) are a little more astute than his (old-fashioned, upper-class, perhaps a tad lethargic)!
Well, perhaps he might not! But the Danish people seem to "get" her!

Well, if Henrik felt snubbed because his own son had (*) to step in front of him, how would he feel if his daughter-in-law did? (**)

It's something I personally have difficulty really understanding.
In Henrik's place at that infamous New Year Court, I would have been tap dancing with pride.

(*) It was Frederik's constitutional duty. He did not push his father aside because he wanted to be in the limelight.

(**) And that day will come, if Henrik live longer than QMII.
Pure speculation: But say QMII die next year. Until the various children turn eighteen there will for a period be a shortage of adults in the DRF to act as Regents (Rigsforstandere), so I can easily imagine Mary, (perhaps even Marie despite her junior status) becoming Regent from time to time.
And I doubt many will object to that among the Danes, certainly fewer than would object to Henrik becoming Regent.
It's the Monarch who decides who shall be regent, while he is away.
There is no precedence in DK, for the past few hundred years, for the Queen to step in as regent, however I believe he will frequently choose Mary, because not only does he trust her, she is also popular and considered competent among the Danes in general. Not to mention that Mary after all will be a majesty by then.
Joachim will naturally still be used very often. He is experienced and in line for the throne.
But Henrik? He is old and more than semi-retired. And making him regent may not be a particular popular move among the Danes.
Another and morbid consideration, is that whoever is regent, he/she is only a tragedy away from being in a very delicate situation.

ADDED: You are most welcome, Madame Royale.

 

[nwinther]

As for the MP's who only nodded slightly, mentioned by nwinther. Mogens Lykketoft is a Social Democrat, and leaning towards the left of that party. Holger K. Nielsen, is from the Socialist People's Party. Their behavior is founded in their political beliefs. Both of them respect QMII very much, but they do not, from an ideological point of view accept the concept of a majesty. As such they do not bow.

Eh? The communists don't accept the concept. But since ML and HKN both respect court (and constitutional) protocol with their mere presence at the opening in those roles (vice-presidents), surely they accept the concept (whether they want to admit it is another thing). They may want to change it (perhaps not), but that's not the same as not accepting it.

Analogously, do Obama accept the concept of a majesty? He sure does bow deeply when he meets with them (or at least he did with the Saudi king). There's such things as protocol, and the position of monarch in most cases warrants a courtsy or a bow. When constitution and protocol is changed, then that protocol is to be followed.

According to the Court and State Calendar, the royal family precedes even the highest classes (1st class). I believe this position merits that the lower ranks take a humble approach to the royal position, just as you see people bowing or even courtsying a president (such as the US president etc.) The HoS is "your" superiour, and bowing (or courtsy depending) is, IMO, a completely merited behaviour. It is, after all, a ceremonial and official event, opening of parliament.

(Here is a list of the official Danish ranking - in Danish, I'm sorry. It's pretty extensive)

There is no precedence in DK, for the past few hundred years, for the Queen to step in as regent

Here's an article from Politiken that says Ingrid was Rigsforstander (Regent) in june 1972.

"I juni 1972 blev dronning Ingrid den første person uden for arvefølgen, som blev betroet ansvaret som rigsforstander. Det havde den praktiske årsag, at prins Henrik skulle kunne rejse sammen med dronning Margrethe, mens prinsesse Benedikte var bosat i Berleburg, og prins Knud var en gammel mand. Men naturligvis var det også en stor tillidserklæring til dronning Ingrid. »Vi ved, at De, dronning Ingrid, sidst af alle ville bryde grundloven«, sagde Krag."

"In June 1972, Queen Ingrid was the first person outside the succession, which was assigned responsibility as regent. This had the practical reason that Prince Henrik should be able to travel with Queen Margrethe, Princess Benedikte was residing in Berleburg, and Prince Knud was an old man. But of course it was also a great vote of confidence to Queen Ingrid. 'We know that you, Queen Ingrid, last of all would break the constitution, "said Krag." (Krag was PM in Denmark at the time)

 

[Muhler]

Eh? The communists don't accept the concept. But since ML and HKN both respect court (and constitutional) protocol with their mere presence at the opening in those roles (vice-presidents), surely they accept the concept (whether they want to admit it is another thing). They may want to change it (perhaps not), but that's not the same as not accepting it.

That's debatable. Both the Social Democrats and the Socialist People's Party are in principle republican.
Their ultimate aim, in principle, is to abolish the monarchy on the premesis that all are born equal.
However, they are also democratic parties and as such they respect the Constitution - and thus the will of the people.
Ideologically speaking it is unfortunate if they bow too deeply, so to speak, for a person who, allthough she and her family acts as the head of state, has been born into this position and has inherited this position, rather than having been democratically elected for that position.
We are really splitting hairs now.

Please bear with me, nwinter.
I'm trying to explain things in a way that can be easily understood by people who do not have English as their first language.
Experience has taught me the need to simplify things in order to make it easy to read.
If someone has additional questions, then you explain in depth.

Here's an article from Politiken that says Ingrid was Rigsforstander (Regent) in june 1972.

"I juni 1972 blev dronning Ingrid den første person uden for arvefølgen, som blev betroet ansvaret som rigsforstander. Det havde den praktiske årsag, at prins Henrik skulle kunne rejse sammen med dronning Margrethe, mens prinsesse Benedikte var bosat i Berleburg, og prins Knud var en gammel mand. Men naturligvis var det også en stor tillidserklæring til dronning Ingrid. »Vi ved, at De, dronning Ingrid, sidst af alle ville bryde grundloven«, sagde Krag."

"In June 1972, Queen Ingrid was the first person outside the succession, which was assigned responsibility as regent. This had the practical reason that Prince Henrik should be able to travel with Queen Margrethe, Princess Benedikte was residing in Berleburg, and Prince Knud was an old man. But of course it was also a great vote of confidence to Queen Ingrid. 'We know that you, Queen Ingrid, last of all would break the constitution, "said Krag." (Krag was PM in Denmark at the time)

I know. I even translated that bit on this board.

But, Queen Ingrid was not acting as a regent on behalf of her husband, Frederik IX. She was acting as a regent of behalf of her daughter, QMII. That is the point and that is what I wrote.

 

[nwinther]

That's debatable. Both the Social Democrats and the Socialist People's Party are in principle republican.
Their ultimate aim, in principle, is to abolish the monarchy on the premesis that all are born equal.
However, they are also democratic parties and as such they respect the Constitution - and thus the will of the people.
Ideologically speaking it is unfortunate if they bow too deeply, so to speak, for a person who, allthough she and her family acts as the head of state, has been born into this position and has inherited this position, rather than having been democratically elected for that position.
We are really splitting hairs now.

Please bear with me, nwinter.
I'm trying to explain things in a way that can be easily understood by people who do not have English as their first language.
Experience has taught me the need to simplify things in order to make it easy to read.
If someone has additional questions, then you explain in depth.

I realize that. But if anything, the last few years have seen the socialists embracing the DRF in a way never seen before - their leader Villy Søvndal has made some comments in that regard. Politically, there is only one actively republican party - the communists (the unity list, I think you called them).

What I'm trying to get focus on (wrong forum, I know) is the (non-)existence of courtesey and politeness in danish society. And where better to start, than with (grownup, educated) peoples behaviour in the presence of royalty?

(Don't get me started on the whole democratically elected-thingy. The ability to drum up votes does not philosophically equate merit or even legitimacy, outside the selfsustained elective system, IMO)

She was acting as a regent of behalf of her daughter, QMII. That is the point and that is what I wrote.

But it does indicate presedence that a person not in the line of succession can in fact become Regent.

 

[Muhler]

I realize that. But if anything, the last few years have seen the socialists embracing the DRF in a way never seen before - their leader Villy Søvndal has made some comments in that regard. Politically, there is only one actively republican party - the communists (the unity list, I think you called them).

What I'm trying to get focus on (wrong forum, I know) is the (non-)existence of courtesey and politeness in danish society. And where better to start, than with (grownup, educated) peoples behaviour in the presence of royalty?

(Don't get me started on the whole democratically elected-thingy. The ability to drum up votes does not philosophically equate merit or even legitimacy, outside the selfsustained elective system, IMO)

Yeah, the old very red leader of the Socialist People's Party, Gert Petersen, on international TV, once stated he would very much like QMII as president.

As for the prevailing lack of curtesy in the society, I can only agree. Lack of curtesy is a lack of respect. And why should anyone respect you in return?
I sometimes feel it's sad that the usage of formal you (De) and last names, have almost gone out of use here in DK. It certainly served a purpose.
When I tell my children that we addressed our teachers (that is, those who became teachers before 68!) with last name and that we even bowed/curtseyed and shook hands with our kindergarten teacher, they look at me in utter disbelief. - Then okay, daddy went to school when the dinosaurs were still around.

But it does indicate presedence that a person not in the line of succession can in fact become Regent.

Exactly.

And this is the interesting bit.

Who will be second and thus the person who will naturally take the office as regent, when Frederik X is out of the country?
Joachim? He is in line for the throne and very experienced.
But Mary is queen and as such a majesty, outranking Joachim.
Wouldn't it be more natural for her to be the first choice as a regent, when her husband Frederik is away?

And for that particular scenario there is no precendence I can think of for at least a couple of hundred years.
The last case I can think of, off hand, is Queen Margrethe I, who acted as regent on behalf of her son, later adopted son. She was never formally a monarch in her own right. And that happened around 1400.

Should Frederik die, Joachim (presumably) or Mary will act as regent on behalf of their son, Christian, until he turns eighteen.
Joachim will not become king. I doubt very much the Parliament would by-pass Christian. - That would make an interesting "what if".

 

[nwinther]

Should Frederik die, Joachim (presumably) or Mary will act as regent on behalf of their son, Christian, until he turns eighteen.
Joachim will not become king. I doubt very much the Parliament would by-pass Christian

Supposing the monarchy lives on (I'd expect it to, but you never know), I could imagine Joachim getting another title, Prince-Regent or something in that respect. You see, the plot thickens if and when Mary should remarry. What would that persons role be?

I would expect Joachim and Mary to run a tight ship and clear roles with Joachim being the one to carry on the history and the official business yet still keep a tight relationship with Christian so as to pass on the things that Mary can never know - what comes from being in a thousand-year-old dynasty etc.

But I doubt that Mary would be sidelined. She'd most surely remain an important figure both to her children and to the country - and it's not far fetched that she'd act as Regent on occation. However, I think that dynastic tradition would call on Joachim to carry the torch.

(BTW - if Frederik died today, as CP, would Mary ever become Queen? The CP title would pass to Christian, but that would also mean that Mary could not be CP. Princess-Regent perhaps?)

 

[Muhler]

Supposing the monarchy lives on (I'd expect it to, but you never know), I could imagine Joachim getting another title, Prince-Regent or something in that respect. You see, the plot thickens if and when Mary should remarry. What would that persons role be?

I would expect Joachim and Mary to run a tight ship and clear roles with Joachim being the one to carry on the history and the official business yet still keep a tight relationship with Christian so as to pass on the things that Mary can never know - what comes from being in a thousand-year-old dynasty etc.

But I doubt that Mary would be sidelined. She'd most surely remain an important figure both to her children and to the country - and it's not far fetched that she'd act as Regent on occation. However, I think that dynastic tradition would call on Joachim to carry the torch.

(BTW - if Frederik died today, as CP, would Mary ever become Queen? The CP title would pass to Christian, but that would also mean that Mary could not be CP. Princess-Regent perhaps?)

Agree. Joachim will be regent. Mary would have plenty to do raising four children, on top of having to deal with the loss of her husband.
Should she remarry, well, I guess Christian would have a step dad, without a constitutional role.
And if we are to be pedantic, Christian will not formally be crown prince until he turns eighteen and has signed a pledge to obey the Constitution.

Another scenario to be imagined is that the Parliament decides it would more considerate to by-pass Christian, who may still be only a small child
and let Joachim become king? Then Nikolai will become crown prince when he turns eighteen.
Should Joachim accept this out of a sense of duty to his country. What about Mary and her children?
Mary would still retain her title as queen, naturally. But Christian? Sorry, you are number four after Joachim.
But what about Alexandra? She would suddenly find herself as a mother to the next heir to the throne, after king Joachim.
Starting to feel a headache? I am.
And that is one of the reasons why I don't believe the Parliament would by-pass Christian. Keep it simple!

You asked, nwinter, what would happen to Mary's title as a Crown Princess should Frederik die now. Tricky one. There must be a precedence somewhere back in history. She would certainly have to give up her title no later than when Christian turn eighteen and can legally marry. There can after all only be one crown princess, - Christian's wife.

 

[nwinther]

Another scenario to be imagined is that the Parliament decides it would more considerate to by-pass Christian, who may still be only a small child and let Joachim become king? Then Nikolai will become crown prince when he turns eighteen.

Unlikely. There's a line of succession, and I can't imagine we'd suddenly change that, just because of a few years of not having a king - if at all.

In this scenario, Margrethe would have to die also - and even then, I can't imagine that Christian would be dumped way down the list.

Agree. Keep Christian as HttT with Joachim as Prince-Regent until the boys 18th birthday. Then he can dole out titles to whom he like.

You asked, nwinter, what would happen to Mary's title as a Crown Princess should Frederik die now. Tricky one. There must be a precedence somewhere back in history. She would certainly have to give up her title no later than when Christian turn eighteen and can legally marry. There can after all only be one crown princess, - Christian's wife.

As you said, Christian won't be CP until his 18th birthday where he (assuming QMII has died, of course) would be king, thus suspending the title altogether. You could (in both cases - with QMII dead or not) keep Mary as CP until Christian either becomes CP or King, and then she would be just Princess or something analogous to "Queen Mother" (if Christian bypasses the CP title and goes directly to King). Then again - I doubt that an 18yo would be expected to reign all by himself, so I could see Joachim remaining close for quite a few years.

 

[Terri Terri]

Fantastic discussion Muhler and nwinther! I am thoroughly enjoying it!

(Here is a list of the official Danish ranking - in Danish, I'm sorry. It's pretty extensive)

Kongehuset




Kongehuset er ikke en del af den officielle rangfølge, men har 'sæde og gang', som det hedder i Kongelig Dansk Hof- og Statskalender, efter den placering, de har i tronfølgen. Kongehusets rækkefølge er denne:

• • Hendes Majestæt Dronningen
  • Hans Kongelige Højhed Prinsgemalen
  • Hans Kongelige Højhed Kronprinsen
  • Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Christian
  • Hendes Kongelige Højhed Kronprinsessen
  • Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Joachim
  • Hendes Kongelige Højhed Prinsesse Marie
  • Hans Højhed Prins Nikolai
  • Hans Højhed Prins Felix
  • Hendes Kongelige Højhed Prinsesse Benedikte
  • Hendes Højhed Prinsesse Elisabeth Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Joachim

Why is Prince Christian before Crown Princess Mary in protocol terms? Nikolai and Felix do not come before Princess Marie. I would imagine that when CP Mary becomes Queen, then Prince Christian will come after her.

 

[Madame Royale]

Why is Prince Christian before Crown Princess Mary in protocol terms? Nikolai and Felix do not come before Princess Marie. I would imagine that when CP Mary becomes Queen, then Prince Christian will come after her.

I'm not entirely familiar with the exact setting of precedence in Denmark, but if this is infact true, I'd assume it's because Christian is the heir of the heir. The direct line of inheritence.

Naturally, when Mary becomes Queen she shall take on the precedence of her husband, and thus being consort, will then appropriately be positioned directly after the King.

I notice however that both Princess Isabella and little Prince Henrik are not listed, so do I assume that the above list was prior to their 'being'?

Would Isabella take precedence over her mother being a princess of the blood royal?

 

[Charlotte_Aster]

Wikipedia puts Mary after Frederik, Christian and Isabella following them.
Danish order of precedence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Sternchen]

I notice however that both Princess Isabella and little Prince Henrik are not listed, so do I assume this was the list prior to their 'being'?

Actually the article has last been updated on September 26th 2010

Would Isabella take precedence over her mother being a princess of the blood royal?

I think so, but could be wrong

 

[Muhler]

Then again - I doubt that an 18yo would be expected to reign all by himself, so I could see Joachim remaining close for quite a few years.

Indeed! And Mary too for that matter, she would by then be an extremely experienced royal and she would no doubt have served as regent many times.
And I cannot imagine Mary not wishing to be around to support and councel her son.
And at age eighteen, Christian will still need at least ten years of education in order to really start to fulfill his role in earnest.

 

[Madame Royale]

Actually the article has last been updated on September 26th 2010

I think so, but could be wrong

Thanks, Sternchen.

How perculiar if the list was updated as late as September of this year. Neither child is listed as we can see...

Something is certainly a miss there. It all seems rather conflicting and in need of amendment.

 

[Josefine]

have i missed something why would christian not be Crown prince until he is 18 if frederik would die in a few years time?
when did frederik become crown prnce? 1972? he were then how old?

 

[Muhler]

have i missed something why would christian not be Crown prince until he is 18 if frederik would die in a few years time?
when did frederik become crown prnce? 1972? he were then how old?

A crown prince has a formal constitutional role.
As such, he will only become a crown prince when he is of legal age himself and is willing and capable of fulfilling the duties of a crown prince.
- His right to be a child is basically being protected that way, so to speak.

Right now, Christian is Prince, because his father is Crown Prince.
When Frederik become king, Christian will become The Heir to the Throne (Tronarvingen), as long as he is not yet eighteen.
Once he is eighteen and has signed a pledge to obey the Danish Constitution and adheres to the Lutheran faith and is otherwise of sound mind, then he become crown prince.
- In theory he can relinquish his rights for the throne, that is his right, as he is of legal age.
As a child he cannot make such decisions, because he is not of legal age.

 

[nwinther]

How perculiar if the list was updated as late as September of this year. Neither child is listed as we can see...

Something is certainly a miss there. It all seems rather conflicting and in need of amendment.

Giggle - what an age we live in. You have no way of knowing this, so maybe it's not fair to laugh.

The list is taken from the Court and State Calendar, which is not a web-document. Rather it's printed annually. Just goes to show how dependent and reliant we've already become on this medium.

This doesn't explain why Isabella is not on the list however, as Marie is, but it could be tradition that this calendar does not include children younger than so-and-so. Remember, in the olden days, far from all children was expected to live beyond infancy. However, this is pure speculation - it may be an omission on part of the webmaster. On kongehuset.dk they list the current ranking.

Hmm... Looking at the text to that list, there's quite a big mistake. It says (in my english)

"The Royal House is not a part of the official ranking, but have 'custom and presedence" as it is called in the Royal Danish Court- and State Calendar, in relation to their position in the line of succession."

Neither the Prince-Consort or the CP (etc.) are in the line of succession. It would be more correct to place them "in relation to their position in the Royal House and the line of succession".

 

[Madame Royale]

So what is the actual current ranking then, giggles aside?

Is it Christain before his morther, or is it Christian after his mother?

I still find it odd that neither Isabella or Henrik aren't listed. That their age should have anything to do with it doesn't really make much sense, if that was infact why they weren't/aren't listed. Despite her age, Isabella is still third in line to the throne and has been officially decreed as a legitimate and possible successor. The same goes for Henrik.

In any case, it would seem their information needs to be updated.

 

[nwinther]

It seems that Christian is below his mother in the ranking, just like Frederik is below his father, with the Monarch being on top, no matter the status of his/her parents.

 

[mrsbugman]

In post #26 it stated something about Prince Henrik "...would get another fit". What did that mean? Did he get mad that he was not bowed to?

 

[Sternchen]

Nothing to do with bowing There was once a New Years Court where QMII was ill, and as the CP Frederik took over and not Henrik. Henrik was angry about that and left for Caix and QMII (with Joachim and Frederik) travelled to France to solve the situation.

 

[Lumutqueen]

In post #26 it stated something about Prince Henrik "...would get another fit". What did that mean? Did he get mad that he was not bowed to?

In 2002, Henrik left Denmark and went to stay at the couple's Château de Caïx in Cahors. The reason for Henrik's departure from Denmark was due to a New Year's Day reception in which his son, Crown Prince Frederik, was appointed host in the absence of Queen Margrethe. Henrik felt "pushed aside, degraded and humiliated" at the fact that he was relegated to "third place in the royal hierarchy." He even missed Prince WA's wedding.

 

[Josefine]

A crown prince has a formal constitutional role.
As such, he will only become a crown prince when he is of legal age himself and is willing and capable of fulfilling the duties of a crown prince.
- His right to be a child is basically being protected that way, so to speak.

Right now, Christian is Prince, because his father is Crown Prince.
When Frederik become king, Christian will become The Heir to the Throne (Tronarvingen), as long as he is not yet eighteen.
Once he is eighteen and has signed a pledge to obey the Danish Constitution and adheres to the Lutheran faith and is otherwise of sound mind, then he become crown prince.
- In theory he can relinquish his rights for the throne, that is his right, as he is of legal age.
As a child he cannot make such decisions, because he is not of legal age.

so frederik become crown prince in 1986?

i am glad to learn something new i looked at wikipedia and they can be wrong
Frederik, Crown Prince of Denmark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Titles and styles from english wikipedia

• 26 May 1968 – 14 January 1972: His Royal Highness Prince Frederik of Denmark
• 14 January 1972 – 29 April 2008: His Royal Highness The Crown Prince of Denmark
• 29 April 2008 – present: His Royal Highness The Crown Prince of Denmark, Count of Monpezat[

 

[Lumutqueen]

He became Crown Prince when his mother became Queen which was 14th January 1972, which makes sense to me?
Pretty much the same as in all other countries?

 

[Sternchen]

Muhlers post implies that he only became CP when he turned 18

Once he is eighteen and has signed a pledge to obey the Danish Constitution and adheres to the Lutheran faith and is otherwise of sound mind, then he become crown prince.