The Danish Order of Precendence

[Lumutqueen]

Muhlers post implies that he only became CP when he turned 18

Well he turned 18 in 1986, but I can't see why he wouldn't be allowed to be a CP when his mother ascended the throne, it makes sense to me.

 

[Sternchen]

Perhaps because he can't sign the pledge before he is off age?

 

[Muhler]

so frederik become crown prince in 1986?

i am glad to learn something new i looked at wikipedia and they can be wrong
Frederik, Crown Prince of Denmark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






Titles and styles from english wikipedia

• 26 May 1968 – 14 January 1972: His Royal Highness Prince Frederik of Denmark
• 14 January 1972 – 29 April 2008: His Royal Highness The Crown Prince of Denmark
• 29 April 2008 – present: His Royal Highness The Crown Prince of Denmark, Count of Monpezat[

I'm beginning to doubt myself.

Perhaps a mistranslation/misinterpretation of the word "tronarving = heir to the throne", or because Frederik (and probably Christian later on) for convenience was called crown prince (*), before turning eighteen.
Just as many believe Queen Margrethe was called crown princess, when she was still a princess and after the change in the Law of Succession.
That was never her title. She was "Tronfølger = Successor to the Throne". Her title was: Prinsesse Margrethe, Tronfølgeren = Princess Margrethe, The Successor to the Throne.
I've never understood why. (**)

Should Christian tragically die, I would presume, Isabella would get the title of "Tronfølger" and not crown princess.

What is certain however, is that Christian cannot fulfill a constitutional role as crown prince before turning eighteen, whatever his title prior to that is.
To point out a visible example of that: Christian's birthday will not become an official flagday until he turns eighteen. Until then he is a child with no constitutional role.

(*) A very, very common mistake is: Frederik, Kronprins af Danmark = Crown Prince of Denmark. That's not correct. His title is: Kronprins til Danmark = Crown Prince to Denmark. To, because he in the line of succession.
Mary's title is Mary, Kronprinsesse af Danmark = Mary, Crown Princess of Denmark. Of, because she is a Danish princess, but not in the line of succession.

(**) Unless Successor to the Throne is used by females who will themselves become a monarch, in order to distinguish them from crown princesses, who are married to dudes who will eventually become monarchs. - Oh my head!

 

[Sternchen]

So he might be known as CP as he will one day be the CP and people most propably won't bother with his correct title?

 

[Muhler]

So he might be known as CP as he will one day be the CP and people most propably won't bother with his correct title?

I guess. It's probably only nerds who will be really concerned about his correct title and when that changes and so on.
So when Frederik become king, Christian will be known in the public as crown prince. And most likely of Denmark as well.

It really isn't that important, his constitutional role is however.

 

[Rascal]

I dont' remember Margaret curtseying to Elizabeth but I could have just missed it.

Sorry for the BRF references, but they are the family that I follow the most.

Does anyone know if the sisters of Beatrix or Harald or Carl Gustaf curtsey to their siblings?

They only reason for Not doing so is because they are siblings of the monarchs and of the royal blood? I don't know.

Hi, Zonk. In another thread I posted about the footage from the wedding banquet of CP Victoria and Daniel Westling. During the procession to the head table, Princess Desiree curtsied to both her brother, King Carl XVI Gustaf, and her sister-in-law, Queen Silvia.

 

[Princess Robijn]

Does anyone know if the sisters of Beatrix or Harald or Carl Gustaf curtsey to their siblings?

As far as I know the Dutch Royal family don't curtsey, unless they are meeting with someone from another Royal family of a country that does curtsey.

I.e. at the wedding of Crown Princess Victoria & Prince Daniel, Princess Máxima would (most likely) have courtesied to Queen Margrethe, however here in the Netherlands, Princess Máxima does not curtsey to Queen Beatrix. She would (most likely) curtsey to Queen Margrethe if there was a Danish State Visit to the Netherlands.

PR

 

[Madame Royale]

Current precedence of the Danish Royal Family

1) The Sovereign
2) The Prince Consort
3) The Crown Prince
4) The Crown Princess
5) Prince Christian
6) Princess Isabella
7) Prince Joachim
8) Princess Marie
9) Prince Nikolai
10) Prince Felix
11) Prince Henrik
12) Princess Benedikte
13) Princess Elisabeth

Current order of succession in the Danish Royal Family

1) Crown Prince
2) Prince Christian
3) Princess Isabella
4) Prince Jocahim
5) Prince Nikolai
6) Prince Felix
7) Prince Henrik
8) Princess Benedikte
9) Princess Elisabeth


The above is correct, yes?

(*) A very, very common mistake is: Frederik, Kronprins af Danmark = Crown Prince of Denmark. That's not correct. His title is: Kronprins til Danmark = Crown Prince to Denmark. To, because he in the line of succession.

It's quite interesting the way things are phrased in Denmark.

Does this then mean that every prince or princess in the line of succession is not a prince/princess 'of' Denmark, rather, a prince/princess 'to' Denmark?

 

[JessRulz]

Does this then mean that every prince or princess in the line of succession is not a prince/princess 'of' Denmark, rather, a prince/princess 'to' Denmark?

Yes, they are all to Denmark as opposed to of Denmark (currently only used when discussing Mary and Marie). All the biographies on Kongehuset.dk list those in the line of succession (Frederik + children, Joachim + children, Benedikte and Elisabeth) as Prins/Prinsesse til Danmark - their correct title - but as Muhler said, they are all more commonly referred to as ... OF Denmark.

 

[yvr girl]

Quite often children are left off of orders of precedece. They don't usually attend the formal occasion where these apply. If they do, such as a church service, they normally sit with their parents anyway. They would never be at a State Banquet...

 

[Josefine]

Danish royal Titles

what were frederiks title during the period of his mther becoming queen and until he turned 18

was he the crown prince or just prince

his mother were never crown princess befre she become queen but that becouse she was a girl what i understand..

 

[Muhler]

what were frederiks title during the period of his mther becoming queen and until he turned 18

was he the crown prince or just prince

his mother were never crown princess befre she become queen but that becouse she was a girl what i understand..

He was a Prince.

QMII's title back then was: Prinsesse Margrethe til Danmark, Tronfølgeren = Princess Margrethe to Denmark, The Successor to the Throne.

She got that title, because a crown princess, (at least back then where boys came before girls), usually meant a woman married to a crown prince. Rather than an heir to the throne in her own right.

I guess that had Isabella been born as the first one, she would have gotten the title of crown princess, rather than just tronfølger/heir.

 

[Sternchen]

It must have been His Royal Highness Prince Frederik of Denmark

 

[Lumutqueen]

It must have been His Royal Highness Prince Frederik of Denmark

From 26th May 1968 to 14th January 1972, he was His Royal Highness Prince Frederik of Denmark. So you're correct.

 

[justcurious]

What an insightful thread. The story about Henrik was amusing because I can just picture him having a fit over it!

I don't know if this has been answered in other threads but say QMII falls ill and wants to abdicate, making Frederik King. Would she be referred to as the Queen just like Mary would be? What would be her official title if that was to happen? As I don't think 'Queen mother' is an official title surely there would be something more formal? Is there a possibility she'll go back to being a Princess of Denmark?

 

[Muhler]

What an insightful thread. The story about Henrik was amusing because I can just picture him having a fit over it!

I don't know if this has been answered in other threads but say QMII falls ill and wants to abdicate, making Frederik King. Would she be referred to as the Queen just like Mary would be? What would be her official title if that was to happen? As I don't think 'Queen mother' is an official title surely there would be something more formal? Is there a possibility she'll go back to being a Princess of Denmark?

That's an interesting question as no Danish monarch has abdicated for health reasons since the 1100's (he got paralyzed). I guess she would keep her title as queen and have a status similar to Queen Ingrid. A kind of Queen Mother.

 

[Lumutqueen]

She'd be The Kings mother obviously.

 

[Madame Royale]

She'd be The Kings mother obviously.

But still the 'Queen Mother' being that she'd be a Queen Dowager, and a mother

 

[Lumutqueen]

Really?
I understand what you mean; but she'd still the The Kings Mother in my head.

 

[Madame Royale]

Well theres never been a 'King Mother' in modern European royal history, if at all. It would make sense that being a Queen Dowager, and should she so wish, that she could also be known as the 'Queen Mother' in reflection of her role as parent of the monarch, no matter the sex of that child.

To be known as the "King Mother' doesn't really reflect her position as A) a woman and B) the fact she was herself a female monarch. She was afterall a Queen, and not a King

 

[justcurious]

Well theres never been a 'King Mother' in modern European royal history, if at all. It would make sense that being a Queen Dowager, and should she so wish, that she could also be known as the 'Queen Mother' in reflection of her role as parent of the monarch, no matter the sex of that child.

To be known as the "King Mother' doesn't really reflect her position as A) a woman and B) the fact she was herself a female monarch. She was afterall a Queen, and not a King

I realise she would naturally be known as Queen Mother informally because that is not an actual title. But if she finds herself in that position, what 'formal' titles would be bestowed upon her? She would still have 'HRH' as part of her name but she would lose the 'Majesty' as a title wouldn't she? Also, as all her children and grandchildren have the added Count/Countess of Monzepat title to their names, would she take it upon herself to use that title or is it just for her kid/grandkids and carried on from there?
Say 'Queen Mother' wasn't allowed because it isn't really a title that has been passed down like CP or HM Queen/King...what would she then be addressed as? Or is a title in that scheme of things non-existent?

And I do think QMII should be able to keep the 'Queen' title in part of her name as long as she is alive. It would be disrespectful not to IMO.

 

[Lumutqueen]

I agree Queen Dowager would be more appropriate, but she is still the Kings mother.

 

[Madame Royale]

Yes she would technically be the Kings Mother, but she wouldn't be known as such which is the point I'm making.

I realise she would naturally be known as Queen Mother informally because that is not an actual title. But if she finds herself in that position, what 'formal' titles would be bestowed upon her? She would still have 'HRH' as part of her name but she would lose the 'Majesty' as a title wouldn't she?

I do believe you're thinking of the Netherlands

Not that Denmark has been confronted with an abdication of a Queen but I do believe it would be very unlikely that the Queen would be stripped of the designation of 'Majesty' in the event she should abdicate. Should would very likely be known as the 'Queen Mother' or 'Queen Dowager'.

...or is it just for her kid/grandkids and carried on from there?

Correct. Establishing the Monpezat title was for the 'benefit' of her descendants.

Say 'Queen Mother' wasn't allowed

Margrethe would, in my mind, be the 'Queen Dowager of Denmark', but could officially be known as the 'Queen Mother' if she was so inclined.

If her late mother, Queen Ingrid, could be known as the Queen Mother, then there really would be no reason to deny Margrethe being known by that style as well.

 

[Muhler]

If her late mother, Queen Ingrid, could be known as the Queen Mother, then there really would be no reason to deny Margrethe being known by that style as well.

Queen Ingrid was never called or referred to as Queen Mother, she was only called Queen Ingrid.

I also believe she was addressed "your Majesty". - She was after all a queen. Not sure though.

I guess QMII would get a similar status.
Not that it would matter much, because she would have to be very ill or infirm for her to abdicate and in such case I don't think the public would see her.
When people would refer to the queen, it would automatically be Mary they would think of first, I believe. - As was the case with Queen Ingrid.

 

[justcurious]

Margrethe would, in my mind, be the 'Queen Dowager of Denmark', but could officially be known as the 'Queen Mother' if she was so inclined.

If her late mother, Queen Ingrid, could be known as the Queen Mother, then there really would be no reason to deny Margrethe being known by that style as well.

So bottom line is there is no actual official title for a King or Queen who abdicates the throne? She would assumingly take up the title of Queen mother or Queen Dowager?

If she was introduced to a room of Royals and distinguished guests, what would they say?
Would it be something like 'Please welcome HRH Her Majesty the Queen Dowager of Denmark?
I apologize for all the questions but it's all so fascinating!

I would hate to ask what her title would be if it wasn't one of her kids on the throne but a sibling of hers then! It would be interesting to see what she would be known as.

Queen Ingrid was never called or referred to as Queen Mother, she was only called Queen Ingrid.

I also believe she was addressed "your Majesty". - She was after all a queen. Not sure though.

I guess QMII would get a similar status.
Not that it would matter much, because she would have to be very ill or infirm for her to abdicate and in such case I don't think the public would see her.
When people would refer to the queen, it would automatically be Mary they would think of first, I believe. - As was the case with Queen Ingrid.

People still referred to her as the Queen even though Margrethe II was the sovereign?

 

[Muhler]

People still referred to her as the Queen even though Margrethe II was the sovereign?

She was only referred to as "Queen Ingrid", QMII was "the Queen" or "Queen Margrethe", sometimes "Her Majesty" or "the Majesty".

 

[Madame Royale]

Queen Ingrid was never called or referred to as Queen Mother, she was only called Queen Ingrid.

I also believe she was addressed "your Majesty". - She was after all a queen. Not sure though.

I guess QMII would get a similar status.
Not that it would matter much, because she would have to be very ill or infirm for her to abdicate and in such case I don't think the public would see her.
When people would refer to the queen, it would automatically be Mary they would think of first, I believe. - As was the case with Queen Ingrid.

I often read that she was referred to as Queen Mother Ingrid? Perhaps it was more from western media?

Be it said though that I wasn't speaking of the title as a principal designation. When King Frederik died she naturally became 'Her Majesty Queen Ingrid' as opposed to 'Her Majesty the Queen', which as we know is reserved for the wife of the incumbent sovereign.

Would it be something like 'Please welcome HRH Her Majesty the Queen Dowager of Denmark?

The style of 'HRH' shouldn't factor into the equation. Margrethe hasn't been an 'HRH' since she succeeded to the throne in 1972. She is an 'Her Majesty' and would, I'm certain, remain an 'Her Majesty' even in the event of an abdication.

As it stands, only in the Netherlands is there a precedent to re-create an abdicated monarch a prince or princess with the style of 'His/Her Royal Highness'.

 

[FasterB]

I also believe she was addressed "your Majesty". - She was after all a queen. Not sure though.

Yes, Queen Ingrid was adressed "Her Majesty Queen Ingrid" as you can see here: Kongehuset - Aktuelt - Billedkalender

ANd BTW: I just noticed that CP Frederik was entitled CP Frederik when his mother became queen: Kongehuset - Aktuelt - Billedkalender
I think when he is referred to as CP Frederik in 1975, then he was CP Frederik in 1972

People still referred to her as the Queen even though Margrethe II was the sovereign?

Yes, we did, but always with her name "Queen Ingrid" to make sure that we knew which queen we were talking about. If we were talking about QMII then it was "The Queen"

 

[Muhler]

ANd BTW: I just noticed that CP Frederik was entitled CP Frederik when his mother became queen: Kongehuset - Aktuelt - Billedkalender
I think when he is referred to as CP Frederik in 1975, then he was CP Frederik in 1972

Thank you, FasterB I stand corrected. I'll try to get that little piece of info to stick in my mind.

 

[FasterB]

Thank you, FasterB I stand corrected. I'll try to get that little piece of info to stick in my mind.

That´s ok, I wasn´t sure either, but then I saw that photo of QI and CP F together at Gråsten
It´s photo number 4