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  #21  
Old 10-06-2010, 03:48 PM
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I believe that Mary and Marie both curtsey as a mark of respect however this is in public only. I'm sure at home in private they do not curtsey to each other. Mary and Marie are both very elegant at it but I doubt in a few months whether Mary will make it that low!

What irks me slightly is that on occasion I notice the Queen and Prince Consort almost brushing aside the act and while the ladies curtsey they have almost moved onto the next person.
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  #22  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:18 PM
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I think the "important" part of the welcome is the kiss on the cheek :) Btw. neither Marie nor Mary curtseyed to Benedikte :)
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  #23  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:22 PM
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No I wouldn't imagine that they do. Is there an Order of Precedence in Denmark as there is in the UK? If that is the case, don't they rank higher than her as a result of their marriage.

Something like this:

Queen of Denmark (Henrik)
Crown Prince Frederik (Mary)
Prince Joachim (Marie)
Beneditke
Elizabeth

As Frederik currently outranks his father, etc.
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  #24  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by crm2317 View Post
What irks me slightly is that on occasion I notice the Queen and Prince Consort almost brushing aside the act and while the ladies curtsey they have almost moved onto the next person.
Agree, if you only judge from the pictures. The curtsey, from both Mary and Marie takes at most about two seconds. It happens fast!
If you look in one of the pictures, it looks to me that That Mary is very much using Henrik's hand as support. She has a fairly firm grip on her hand.
- And it takes place after the kissing of the cheeks.
A bow or a curtsey can be compared to a salute. You still salute whether it's noticed or not.

And it's also a fine balance. If the Regent Couple were to stand still and just keep looking at M&M while they curtsey, it can so easily be misinterpreted.
Something akin to: "Now Mary/Marie, be sure to remember to curtsey for me. You must show me respect. Good. There's a good girl".

Jon Bloch Skipper, a historian, was asked recently why Frederik and Joachim do not bow. He suggested that they did not in order not to be seen as too formal, almost akward in their behaviour. In other words that onlookers would appreciate the warmer kisses between what is after all family members more, than the formal show of respect by bowing.

Denmark is a society with a lot of emphasis on egalitarianism. Many show their respect for the DRF by bowing/curtseying, because they want to, not because they have to. And it is perhaps in this light we should view these nuances in behaviour.

As for the MP's who only nodded slightly, mentioned by nwinther. Mogens Lykketoft is a Social Democrat, and leaning towards the left of that party. Holger K. Nielsen, is from the Socialist People's Party. Their behavior is founded in their political beliefs. Both of them respect QMII very much, but they do not, from an ideological point of view accept the concept of a majesty. As such they do not bow.
Søren Espersen, is from the Danish People's Party. Which is a nationalist party (perhaps more correctly, extreme right wing Social Democrats, but that's another story) which is very much in favour of the monarchy, as such it would be most unfortunate, if he did not bow to QMII.

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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
No I wouldn't imagine that they do. Is there an Order of Precedence in Denmark as there is in the UK? If that is the case, don't they rank higher than her as a result of their marriage.

Something like this:

Queen of Denmark (Henrik)
Crown Prince Frederik (Mary)
Prince Joachim (Marie)
Beneditke
Elizabeth

As Frederik currently outranks his father, etc.
That's correct. Mary and Marie follow their husbands.

Constitutionally speaking Frederik already outranks his father. According to the protocol, he does not, - as long as QMII is alive.
The second Frederik become a king, he outranks everybody else in every official capacity.
What respect he will show his father, as a widower, in private is interesting to speculate about.

Theoretically speaking there is nothing to hinder Mary from acting as a Regent (actually Rigsforstander) in case, QMII, Frederik, Joachim and Benedikte were incapacitated or outside Danish soil.
In which case, Mary would constitutionally speaking outrank her father-in-law.
- One might fear he would get another fit!
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  #25  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:31 PM
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Slightly off topic question ---- how many political parties do you guys have there in Denmark?
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  #26  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:51 PM
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Muhler, thank you for all your time in explaining things to us. I have learned so much from you since I have been a member. You are able to do it for this Texan/American where I am able to understand how the DRF works. It did not take me long to understand that the PC is another matter altogether when it comes to how the DRF operate. lol It is always fascinating hearing from you.
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  #27  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Slightly off topic question ---- how many political parties do you guys have there in Denmark?
The Unity List.
Liberal Alliance.
The Conservatives.
Socialist People's Party.
The Social Democrats.
The Liberals.
The Danish People's Party.
The Radicals.

From a Social Democrat view, and not entirely joking, they can be divided into this:
The Social Democrats. - The mother party.
The Unity list. - Extreme left wing Social Democrats, who wish to turn DK into a soviet.
Liberal Alliance. - Anti-social and selfish, who could be good Social Democrats, if they see the Light.
The Conservatives. - They could be good Social Democrats, if they realised the need for sharing their wealth with everybody else.
The Socialist People's Party. - Left wing, Social Democrats. Who should drink less herbal tea and stop singing so many songs praising the whales.
The Liberals. - Middle class Social Democrats. With a house, a medium sized dog, a medium sized car, and 1.8 children. Both parents are employed.
The Danish People's Party. - Right wing, nationalist Social Democrats with a slight xenophobic streak.
The Radicals - Intellectual Social Democrats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dee4855 View Post
Muhler, thank you for all your time in explaining things to us. I have learned so much from you since I have been a member. You are able to do it for this Texan/American where I am able to understand how the DRF works. It did not take me long to understand that the PC is another matter altogether when it comes to how the DRF operate. lol It is always fascinating hearing from you.
Thank you, for your very kind words, dee4855 I do appreciate it.

However, as there is no such thing as stupid questions, only stupid answers, please do not hestitate to ask if there is something in my (often very long explanations) you do not understand.
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  #28  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:58 PM
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Yes thank you Muhler.

Such great information and so MANY political parties. And they all run for office?

Well certainly those who don't bow to the Queen have the right to their beliefs and the right to express it. As long as everyone behaves as mature and civil adults....thats the key to a civil society. Or so I have been told
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  #29  
Old 10-06-2010, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by avrilo View Post
I might be getting a little bit off topic here but, what I don't get very well is who has to curtsey. Bendikte doesn't and that makes sense to me I can't picture my sister curteseying to me or the other way around without cracking into laughter
I'm still very confused about Benedikte's lack of curtsy. I don't think I've ever seen her curtsy to Margrethe, and technically she would be just as obligated as Mary and Marie since they are all Royal Highnesses.

Avrilo, I agree it would seem weird in a normal family, but it would be weird in a normal family for daughters-in-law to curtsy. So I don't think that matters here.
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  #30  
Old 10-06-2010, 05:25 PM
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I dont' remember Margaret curtseying to Elizabeth but I could have just missed it.

Sorry for the BRF references, but they are the family that I follow the most.

Does anyone know if the sisters of Beatrix or Harald or Carl Gustaf curtsey to their siblings?

They only reason for Not doing so is because they are siblings of the monarchs and of the royal blood? I don't know.
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  #31  
Old 10-06-2010, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
I dont' remember Margaret curtseying to Elizabeth but I could have just missed it.

Sorry for the BRF references, but they are the family that I follow the most.

Does anyone know if the sisters of Beatrix or Harald or Carl Gustaf curtsey to their siblings?

They only reason for Not doing so is because they are siblings of the monarchs and of the royal blood? I don't know.
Princess Margaret did curtsey to both Queens.
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  #32  
Old 10-06-2010, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Does anyone know if the sisters of Beatrix or Harald or Carl Gustaf curtsey to their siblings?
I've never seen either of Harald's sisters curtsy to him, but I'm not sure I've ever seen any of his children or children-in-law curtsy. I don't think the NRF curtsies as much as the DRF, so it would be hard to learn anything about the "rules" from them.

The Dutch and the Swedes, I have no idea.
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  #33  
Old 10-07-2010, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
- One might fear he would get another fit!
Do you think so? Surely if he is honest with himself, he would recognise that Mary's qualifications and abilities, regardless of people's subjective response to her full-on personality (smart, modern, progressive, hard-working, assertive) are a little more astute than his (old-fashioned, upper-class, perhaps a tad lethargic)!
Well, perhaps he might not! But the Danish people seem to "get" her!
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  #34  
Old 10-07-2010, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
I dont' remember Margaret curtseying to Elizabeth but I could have just missed it.
She curtseyed at her own wedding, and the coronation.
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  #35  
Old 10-07-2010, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
The Unity List.
Liberal Alliance.
The Conservatives.
Socialist People's Party.
The Social Democrats.
The Liberals.
The Danish People's Party.
The Radicals.

From a Social Democrat view, and not entirely joking, they can be divided into this:
The Social Democrats. - The mother party.
The Unity list. - Extreme left wing Social Democrats, who wish to turn DK into a soviet.
Liberal Alliance. - Anti-social and selfish, who could be good Social Democrats, if they see the Light.
The Conservatives. - They could be good Social Democrats, if they realised the need for sharing their wealth with everybody else.
The Socialist People's Party. - Left wing, Social Democrats. Who should drink less herbal tea and stop singing so many songs praising the whales.
The Liberals. - Middle class Social Democrats. With a house, a medium sized dog, a medium sized car, and 1.8 children. Both parents are employed.
The Danish People's Party. - Right wing, nationalist Social Democrats with a slight xenophobic streak.
The Radicals - Intellectual Social Democrats.
I enjoy your posts, Muhler. Informative, not without humour and always to the point. They are a pleasure to read
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  #36  
Old 10-07-2010, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Aotearoagal View Post
Do you think so? Surely if he is honest with himself, he would recognise that Mary's qualifications and abilities, regardless of people's subjective response to her full-on personality (smart, modern, progressive, hard-working, assertive) are a little more astute than his (old-fashioned, upper-class, perhaps a tad lethargic)!
Well, perhaps he might not! But the Danish people seem to "get" her!
Well, if Henrik felt snubbed because his own son had (*) to step in front of him, how would he feel if his daughter-in-law did? (**)

It's something I personally have difficulty really understanding.
In Henrik's place at that infamous New Year Court, I would have been tap dancing with pride.

(*) It was Frederik's constitutional duty. He did not push his father aside because he wanted to be in the limelight.

(**) And that day will come, if Henrik live longer than QMII.
Pure speculation: But say QMII die next year. Until the various children turn eighteen there will for a period be a shortage of adults in the DRF to act as Regents (Rigsforstandere), so I can easily imagine Mary, (perhaps even Marie despite her junior status) becoming Regent from time to time.
And I doubt many will object to that among the Danes, certainly fewer than would object to Henrik becoming Regent.
It's the Monarch who decides who shall be regent, while he is away.
There is no precedence in DK, for the past few hundred years, for the Queen to step in as regent, however I believe he will frequently choose Mary, because not only does he trust her, she is also popular and considered competent among the Danes in general. Not to mention that Mary after all will be a majesty by then.
Joachim will naturally still be used very often. He is experienced and in line for the throne.
But Henrik? He is old and more than semi-retired. And making him regent may not be a particular popular move among the Danes.
Another and morbid consideration, is that whoever is regent, he/she is only a tragedy away from being in a very delicate situation.

ADDED: You are most welcome, Madame Royale.
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  #37  
Old 10-07-2010, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
As for the MP's who only nodded slightly, mentioned by nwinther. Mogens Lykketoft is a Social Democrat, and leaning towards the left of that party. Holger K. Nielsen, is from the Socialist People's Party. Their behavior is founded in their political beliefs. Both of them respect QMII very much, but they do not, from an ideological point of view accept the concept of a majesty. As such they do not bow.
Eh? The communists don't accept the concept. But since ML and HKN both respect court (and constitutional) protocol with their mere presence at the opening in those roles (vice-presidents), surely they accept the concept (whether they want to admit it is another thing). They may want to change it (perhaps not), but that's not the same as not accepting it.

Analogously, do Obama accept the concept of a majesty? He sure does bow deeply when he meets with them (or at least he did with the Saudi king). There's such things as protocol, and the position of monarch in most cases warrants a courtsy or a bow. When constitution and protocol is changed, then that protocol is to be followed.

According to the Court and State Calendar, the royal family precedes even the highest classes (1st class). I believe this position merits that the lower ranks take a humble approach to the royal position, just as you see people bowing or even courtsying a president (such as the US president etc.) The HoS is "your" superiour, and bowing (or courtsy depending) is, IMO, a completely merited behaviour. It is, after all, a ceremonial and official event, opening of parliament.

(Here is a list of the official Danish ranking - in Danish, I'm sorry. It's pretty extensive)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
There is no precedence in DK, for the past few hundred years, for the Queen to step in as regent
Here's an article from Politiken that says Ingrid was Rigsforstander (Regent) in june 1972.

"I juni 1972 blev dronning Ingrid den første person uden for arvefølgen, som blev betroet ansvaret som rigsforstander. Det havde den praktiske årsag, at prins Henrik skulle kunne rejse sammen med dronning Margrethe, mens prinsesse Benedikte var bosat i Berleburg, og prins Knud var en gammel mand. Men naturligvis var det også en stor tillidserklæring til dronning Ingrid. »Vi ved, at De, dronning Ingrid, sidst af alle ville bryde grundloven«, sagde Krag."

"In June 1972, Queen Ingrid was the first person outside the succession, which was assigned responsibility as regent. This had the practical reason that Prince Henrik should be able to travel with Queen Margrethe, Princess Benedikte was residing in Berleburg, and Prince Knud was an old man. But of course it was also a great vote of confidence to Queen Ingrid. 'We know that you, Queen Ingrid, last of all would break the constitution, "said Krag." (Krag was PM in Denmark at the time)
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  #38  
Old 10-07-2010, 04:29 AM
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Eh? The communists don't accept the concept. But since ML and HKN both respect court (and constitutional) protocol with their mere presence at the opening in those roles (vice-presidents), surely they accept the concept (whether they want to admit it is another thing). They may want to change it (perhaps not), but that's not the same as not accepting it.
That's debatable. Both the Social Democrats and the Socialist People's Party are in principle republican.
Their ultimate aim, in principle, is to abolish the monarchy on the premesis that all are born equal.
However, they are also democratic parties and as such they respect the Constitution - and thus the will of the people.
Ideologically speaking it is unfortunate if they bow too deeply, so to speak, for a person who, allthough she and her family acts as the head of state, has been born into this position and has inherited this position, rather than having been democratically elected for that position.
We are really splitting hairs now.

Please bear with me, nwinter.
I'm trying to explain things in a way that can be easily understood by people who do not have English as their first language.
Experience has taught me the need to simplify things in order to make it easy to read.
If someone has additional questions, then you explain in depth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nwinther View Post
Here's an article from Politiken that says Ingrid was Rigsforstander (Regent) in june 1972.

"I juni 1972 blev dronning Ingrid den første person uden for arvefølgen, som blev betroet ansvaret som rigsforstander. Det havde den praktiske årsag, at prins Henrik skulle kunne rejse sammen med dronning Margrethe, mens prinsesse Benedikte var bosat i Berleburg, og prins Knud var en gammel mand. Men naturligvis var det også en stor tillidserklæring til dronning Ingrid. »Vi ved, at De, dronning Ingrid, sidst af alle ville bryde grundloven«, sagde Krag."

"In June 1972, Queen Ingrid was the first person outside the succession, which was assigned responsibility as regent. This had the practical reason that Prince Henrik should be able to travel with Queen Margrethe, Princess Benedikte was residing in Berleburg, and Prince Knud was an old man. But of course it was also a great vote of confidence to Queen Ingrid. 'We know that you, Queen Ingrid, last of all would break the constitution, "said Krag." (Krag was PM in Denmark at the time)
I know. I even translated that bit on this board.

But, Queen Ingrid was not acting as a regent on behalf of her husband, Frederik IX. She was acting as a regent of behalf of her daughter, QMII. That is the point and that is what I wrote.
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Old 10-07-2010, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
That's debatable. Both the Social Democrats and the Socialist People's Party are in principle republican.
Their ultimate aim, in principle, is to abolish the monarchy on the premesis that all are born equal.
However, they are also democratic parties and as such they respect the Constitution - and thus the will of the people.
Ideologically speaking it is unfortunate if they bow too deeply, so to speak, for a person who, allthough she and her family acts as the head of state, has been born into this position and has inherited this position, rather than having been democratically elected for that position.
We are really splitting hairs now.

Please bear with me, nwinter.
I'm trying to explain things in a way that can be easily understood by people who do not have English as their first language.
Experience has taught me the need to simplify things in order to make it easy to read.
If someone has additional questions, then you explain in depth.
I realize that. But if anything, the last few years have seen the socialists embracing the DRF in a way never seen before - their leader Villy Søvndal has made some comments in that regard. Politically, there is only one actively republican party - the communists (the unity list, I think you called them).

What I'm trying to get focus on (wrong forum, I know) is the (non-)existence of courtesey and politeness in danish society. And where better to start, than with (grownup, educated) peoples behaviour in the presence of royalty?

(Don't get me started on the whole democratically elected-thingy. The ability to drum up votes does not philosophically equate merit or even legitimacy, outside the selfsustained elective system, IMO)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
She was acting as a regent of behalf of her daughter, QMII. That is the point and that is what I wrote.
But it does indicate presedence that a person not in the line of succession can in fact become Regent.
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  #40  
Old 10-07-2010, 05:06 AM
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I realize that. But if anything, the last few years have seen the socialists embracing the DRF in a way never seen before - their leader Villy Søvndal has made some comments in that regard. Politically, there is only one actively republican party - the communists (the unity list, I think you called them).

What I'm trying to get focus on (wrong forum, I know) is the (non-)existence of courtesey and politeness in danish society. And where better to start, than with (grownup, educated) peoples behaviour in the presence of royalty?

(Don't get me started on the whole democratically elected-thingy. The ability to drum up votes does not philosophically equate merit or even legitimacy, outside the selfsustained elective system, IMO)
Yeah, the old very red leader of the Socialist People's Party, Gert Petersen, on international TV, once stated he would very much like QMII as president.

As for the prevailing lack of curtesy in the society, I can only agree. Lack of curtesy is a lack of respect. And why should anyone respect you in return?
I sometimes feel it's sad that the usage of formal you (De) and last names, have almost gone out of use here in DK. It certainly served a purpose.
When I tell my children that we addressed our teachers (that is, those who became teachers before 68!) with last name and that we even bowed/curtseyed and shook hands with our kindergarten teacher, they look at me in utter disbelief. - Then okay, daddy went to school when the dinosaurs were still around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nwinther View Post
But it does indicate presedence that a person not in the line of succession can in fact become Regent.
Exactly.

And this is the interesting bit.

Who will be second and thus the person who will naturally take the office as regent, when Frederik X is out of the country?
Joachim? He is in line for the throne and very experienced.
But Mary is queen and as such a majesty, outranking Joachim.
Wouldn't it be more natural for her to be the first choice as a regent, when her husband Frederik is away?

And for that particular scenario there is no precendence I can think of for at least a couple of hundred years.
The last case I can think of, off hand, is Queen Margrethe I, who acted as regent on behalf of her son, later adopted son. She was never formally a monarch in her own right. And that happened around 1400.

Should Frederik die, Joachim (presumably) or Mary will act as regent on behalf of their son, Christian, until he turns eighteen.
Joachim will not become king. I doubt very much the Parliament would by-pass Christian. - That would make an interesting "what if".
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