The Danish Monarchy: Is it worth it? Nationalism or a National Waste?


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Villemann

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I entirely agree with you. It is the lack of purpose, that gets me too. Mary and Frede are cute and photogenic, but what was the purpose of the visit? Too see Mary in as many woolen hats as possible? To promote Danish technology or design in Iceland? The lack of purpose is the overall problem with the Danish royals today, especially with CP Frederik.He is an delightful fella, but completely lost! I believe , unless the Danish royals - and royals all over Europe for that matter - come up with something else, their days are numbered. They need to reform to stay alive and visits like the one to Iceland ,where it appears to be all about the next photo-op, does not help a monarchy survive. It merely turns the royals into celebrities like Paris Hilton or whatever they are called.
 
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We don't need a modernized monarchy, nor in Skandinavia , nor in the UK, nor in Holland or the mini-states (Luxemburg, Liechtenstein or Monaco), Belgium, Spain.
To survive we need a United States of Europe and that will be without monarchy.
 
Monarchies do have a role in modern society

We don't need a modernized monarchy, nor in Skandinavia , nor in the UK, nor in Holland or the mini-states (Luxemburg, Liechtenstein or Monaco), Belgium, Spain.
To survive we need a United States of Europe and that will be without monarchy.
I disagree. I think monarchies have a role to play in modern society, but they need to reform and adapt. That is the biggest challenge facing today's younger generations of royals all over Europe.
 
We don't need a modernized monarchy, nor in Skandinavia , nor in the UK, nor in Holland or the mini-states (Luxemburg, Liechtenstein or Monaco), Belgium, Spain.
To survive we need a United States of Europe and that will be without monarchy.

Come again...? A United States of Europe? What on earth!!!

Each country has it's own culture, it's own history, own language and own customs. To suggest Europe becoming a singular power, with one Head of State, is beyond rediculous. It would be catastrophic beyond reason.

And here I was thinking Napoleon I was dead..
 
Wonderful wrap-up?

:ermm: I'm not sure what a United Europe has to do with the CP visit to Iceland so in the spirit of getting back on topic DRW has a wonderful wrap-up of the couples' visit Danish Royal Watchers: Frederik & Mary in Iceland :flowers:

The trip to Iceland produced some fantastic pictures of a happy couple at work. The problem is, that this couple is representing a "company" in need of resurrection. The Danish monarchy is on life support and trips like this one to Iceland does nothing for it's health. What Frede and Mary did in Iceland is what the royals did a generation ago, horseback riding hot geysers etc. etc. Are there really no social issues at all in Iceland, CP Mary could have looked at and raised awareness for? What about renewable energy? (They stopped at only one place) By pottering along in the footsteps of previous royals - so delightfully illustrated in DRW's wrap-up of the visit with a foto montage of Frede's great grandfathers visit to the island light years ago - - Mary and Frede are not adding to the monarchy's popularity. They are merely stuffing us with pictures to stop the hungerpangs we feel as soon as we don't get our daily celebrity fix. A monarchy should be way above such a thing. A monarchy is not a photo-op. It's a living organism based on the respect of the people and on the royal family's ability to serve that people the best they can! In that respect Frede and Mary still have a long way to go. Do I think, they can do it? It depends on the girl from Hobart!:)
 
The Danish monarchy is on life support and trips like this one to Iceland does nothing for it's health
What exactly is it that cause you to come to this conclusion becuase I have never come across any reports that state the Danish Monarchy is in a danger, in fact from what I have seen it is a very popular one.

What about renewable energy? (They stopped at only one place)
They visited a Geothermal power plant, Iceland has sufficient natural resources to generate all the electricity needed by mainland Europe using in part Geothermal power, however the problem they are facing is that there is now way to transport the engery to the mainland. Their visit there is not going to solve that problem but perhaps the people at home in Denmark will now be more aware of it.

Are there really no social issues at all in Iceland, CP Mary could have looked at and raised awareness for?
There are just over 300,000 people in Iceland. It has an extraordinary low crime rate, it has a 100% literacy rate, Icelanders have one of the highest life expectancies in the world and has an good health care system that is primarily financed by the government. No there are really no social issues that they need a CP from another country to raise awareness of.
 
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What do you suggest the royal families of the world do to modernise the rules they have stood by for century's??
R.D
x
 
The Danish Monarchy: Is it worth it worth it? Nationalism or a National Waste?

In this democratic age, there are charges that the Danish monarchy is an anachronism, and some believe the monarchy will not survive after the death of Queen Margrethe II. With the inception of Crown Prince Frederik, who has been deemed unprepared, some believe he will be the last King of Denmark. Then there are the other issues of cultural identity and nationalism (result of interplay of capitalism, language, shared cultural connectedness, and provides a sense of common history of heroes, sacrifices, triumph, and geographical places), and the monarchy.

On the other side of the field stands those who vehemently argue that Danish monarchy is a waste of taxpayer money; furthermore, there are those who believe the Danish royals are not doing enough to earn their keep. As a result, they believe that for the sake and future of their country, Denmark, should become a republic.

So what say you? This is a topic in which all members, Danish and non-Danish, are welcome to share their opinions, comments, questions, and so forth. With that said, it is imperative that everyone remembers one thing: Respect.

I'm going to assume that the majority here on TRF are adults, and know how to behave like one when confronted with opinions that are vastly different from their own. Second, I am going to assume that more than half of you have a thorough understanding of constructive criticism and know the basic fundamentals of Argumentation 101.
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Mandy, Empress, Dazzling, Grim_Lady, and GT:flowers:
 
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Personally, I believe that all Monarchies will face a crisis at some point in the future.
There were times when the people could line the streets to see the royals during weddings or funerals or at other special events. Nowdays, they can see them coming in and out of night clubs,follow their romances closely, see them socializing with all sorts of people and in a lot of ways following their lives like they used to do with the movie stars. The mystery is gone and some may think it is cute romantic and very real, but what kept them there and us here was the difference between us.
People will think how much it costs them to suppport the royal families and what they get in return and may think again whether they worth it or not.
 
In my opinion, as much as I enjoy following the lives of royalty I agree with Odette. There used to be an air about royals where they were so elitist it made them special. Now that it is becoming more common to see them associating with the society's average people I predict that eventually royal families will fade away. I often wonder if, by the time I am an old lady, there will be any royal families still supported by their country.

Even though I see royals as being the PR people of their countries I doubt people will want to pay so much for their services in the near future.
 
CP Frederik needs to get on a fast-track to train for being the King. He has never shown any greater interest in being the next Regent. If one compare him with Spain's Felipe or Sweden's Victoria the lack of interest and work ethic is evident. Q MII is very popular and Frederik will undoubtedly be compared to her. The remake of Mary into a perfectly dressed and made up women with very little of her own personality left has not impressed the danes I have met. Danish women are smart, naturally goodlooking, fashion consious and down to earth - they have a hard time to identify with her. The Danes as well as all other royal families will face tough times in keeping the royal role relevant. Frederik will have the hardest time of the european countries - mostly because of himself.
 
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Are there really no social issues at all in Iceland, CP Mary could have looked at and raised awareness for?

Just out of curiosity, why do you single out Mary here? As both halves of the couple were on the trip, why not both? ;)
 
Before we get to far into this discussion, remember that we're only interested in your opinion. So, don't tell us what your Danish friends, your great Aunt Edna or your family think about this subject. Please provide links to published reports to support your opinions as per our new TRF rule or your post(s) may be deleted.

Have fun! :flowers:

Mandy
 
Come again...? A United States of Europe? What on earth!!!

Each country has it's own culture, it's own history, own language and own customs. To suggest Europe becoming a singular power, with one Head of State, is beyond rediculous. It would be catastrophic beyond reason.

And here I was thinking Napoleon I was dead..

No the Head of State will not be a second Napoleon l.
The Head of State of a UE will be an elected one and will only represent, like for example in Germany.
I think a monarchical system is compleetly outdated nowadays
Nowadays we live in a democracy where we should be free to elect our Head of State.
It is compleetly strange that the son/daughter of a Head of State becomes automatically the new Head of State only because he/she is the child of....
It is against democracy!!!
 
Well, it can be argued the other way around too. In a European Union that slowly tries to become a monster state there is an added need in regions for symbols of their identity. The monarchy can play a role in this movement. Even in the EU gets a president the countries will keep their own heads of state, so...

--

Just out of curiosity, those who say that the monarchy should modernize and change: what should they change? We just had a poll here in The Netherlands, most of the people who participated in the poll wanted the monarchy to modernize too, but when asked HOW... no awnsers to that. And as 94% said that the CP and his wife did a good job, I fail to see why/ what should be modernized. So what should be modernized in Denmark in this case?

IMO the monarchies have modernised as much as they could, I see very little room for even more 'modernisation' for now.

And I was wondering, on what do people base their opinion that Margrethe II will be the last monarch, or that Frederik will be the last one? Isn't the Danish monarchy still very popular with the Danes?
 
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Personally, I believe that all Monarchies will face a crisis at some point in the future.
There were times when the people could line the streets to see the royals during weddings or funerals or at other special events. Nowdays, they can see them coming in and out of night clubs,follow their romances closely, see them socializing with all sorts of people and in a lot of ways following their lives like they used to do with the movie stars. The mystery is gone and some may think it is cute romantic and very real, but what kept them there and us here was the difference between us.
People will think how much it costs them to suppport the royal families and what they get in return and may think again whether they worth it or not.

In my opinion, as much as I enjoy following the lives of royalty I agree with Odette. There used to be an air about royals where they were so elitist it made them special. Now that it is becoming more common to see them associating with the society's average people I predict that eventually royal families will fade away. I often wonder if, by the time I am an old lady, there will be any royal families still supported by their country.

Even though I see royals as being the PR people of their countries I doubt people will want to pay so much for their services in the near future.

It saddens me, but I must agree with the both of you. I feel that in this age where we do see so many pictures of the royal families, doing the things that 'normal' people do (especially things like clubbing!) they begin to lose a little of the mystique, the glamour which made them 'royalty', as I had held it in my head for such a long time - something untouchable, with plenty of grandeur etc. I am not saying that that is gone (we do, after all, still have gala dinners), but the absolute 'wow' the almost over-the-top regal glamour, I dont feel that its there anymore. But then, maybe thats partly as a result of the little girl deep inside me, who loves the very thought of all the glamour, beautiful jewels, ballgowns and waltzing!

To bring myself back down to earth, I feel that there may need to be some kind a very definite... 'change' may be to strong a word but a shift, in that there needs to be relevance in the activities the RF participate in. I am not saying that associations such as the mental health, deaf and alannah and madeline are not relevant, not at all, but perhaps that there could be a shift in the way engagents occur???

(I have more to say on the topic but have lingered to long already!)
 
And I was wondering, on what do people base their opinion that Margrethe II will be the last monarch, or that Frederik will be the last one? Isn't the Danish monarchy still very popular with the Danes?
Just out of curiosity, those who say that the monarchy should modernize and change: what should they change? We just had a poll here in The Netherlands, most of the people who participated in the poll wanted the monarchy to modernize too, but when asked HOW... no awnsers to that. And as 94% said that the CP and his wife did a good job, I fail to see why/ what should be modernized. So what should be modernized in Denmark in this case?

Denmark isn't the Netherlands. The Netherlands isn't Denmark. Two different cultures. Different cultural identity and nationalistic sentiments. Can you compare a pomegranate to an apple? It is incredibly difficult to compare these two countries for there is much difference... it's like comparing Canada and USA. Yes, the two are North American, but we are two vastly different cultures.


I must ask you, Marengo, what evidence do we have that supports the claim that every single Dane adores the monarchy, their Queen, and the future of it? I am not referring to a poll where a certain number of Danes are questioned on the street or via a telephone marketing call and therefore speak for the 5 million plus people. I would like to know: Has there ever been a required poll in which every single person living in Denmark, including the illegal immigrants, must respond or else?

Second, I was the one who stated:

In this democratic age, there are charges that the Danish monarchy is an anachronism, and some believe the monarchy will not survive after the death of Queen Margrethe II.

There have been whispers for quite sometime that Frederik may not be prepared to take over. If he continues on his current path, perhaps it's not to far fetched to say that some should be concerned. Furthermore, I base my statements on a nice chat at a roundtable discussion sometime ago (big roundtable, I should say, with various scholars from Europe, Japan, and the US, Ph.D. and MA students from across the US, and several writers) debating the status of Europe, the EU, various monarchies and their place in the 21st century and whether or not they are relevant or a faux reality for some people and the staunch nationalistic sentiments tied to them, the influx of mass immigration/transnational shift to Western European countries and the complex changes that have and will occur, and the Xenophobic attitudes some countries are displaying towards this mass migration.

So yeah, it was me. :)
 
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Well, I was not comparing Denmark and The Netherlands in the way you suggest. My point was that the signals here are contradictionairy. People say they want change and ' modernization' , but when asked how...nobody had a clue, and 94% said they approved of the CP-ly couple did things at the moment. So that are conflicting signals to say the least.

And here is where this thread comes in, as some posters say they want things to modernize too, but thus far I am not able to see what it is that should be modernized and how. And if that is just a personal thing or if it is an issue with the Danish public.

I never said that every Dane adores the monarchy, I wouldn' t know if they do or don' t, but it seems very unlikely they all do. Still from what I have read over the past years I got the impression that the Danish RF is popular in Denmark and that there is a strong base of support for the institution.
 
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I see, but I must say that when you noted the recent outcome in the Netherlands it is easy to deduce the implied comparison.

For me, as an American, I cannot give an unbiased answer to your question: How do or should they modernize? What is the solution? I firm believer in meritocracy, and if I attempted to suggest some solutions it wouldn't work... did that make any sense? It is up to the people within that particular nation to solve it. And what is modernization any way? What are the barriers? And with modernization is a monarchy worth keeping? What are its functions? How can a nation have modernization if they still adhere to archaic traditions of royalty?

Refocusing on Denmark, what about this whole creation of new titles by Queen Margrethe? Is that modernizing the monarchy? Or turning it backwards? Sure it covers the "just in case" scenario, it could also be seen as an "ruh oh" moment hence Frederik by those who love to question and debate... for the sake of question and debate. Also, will these new titles raise questions, and dare I say, dissent for some people? Finally, what are the royals really doing to earn their keep and is it enough?




:)
 
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I think this question has been raised ever since there was something like the French Revolution and republicanism appeared on the scene. Also, the question whether the heir has the ability to become a good monarch is a very old one.

In the 60ies which was a much more revolutionary decade than this many people thought monarchies should be destroyed, Queen Beatrix had the greatest problems when she ascended the throne, in the 90ies even the monarchy per excellence, the BRF was in question because of it's elitism. But - they are still here and quite popular. (I really do not agree with other posters here, I think elitism would be the death-kiss for any monarchy in this time of egalitism. People may accept it within the older royal generations, but I don't think they would accept it from the younger.)

Of course there never was and never will be a time when every single person of a state adores the monarchy, just as not every single person in my country appreciates ("adore" is a much too strong word here) our President.
But IMO monarchies in general are more popular among the younger generations nowadays than they have been for a long time. That might change again, but for now I personally don't see revolutions ahead.

Regarding the Danish monarchy I would say they are quite popular (Not saying that there aren't any anti-monarchistic movements in DK as well). I saw an interview with the editor of the "Nord-Schleswiger", the newspaper of the German minority in DK, on German Tv last year and he said the Scandinavian royals are the most popular among the European royals, and the Danish the most popular among the Scandinavian royals. Don't know how he knows but that's what he said.
And since the queen is probably on the throne for another 15 - 20 years I don't quite see how Frederik will be able to reform anything in the near future (which of course might turn out as a problem for the monarchy).

:)
 
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I think this question has been raised ever since there was something like the French Revolution and republicanism appeared on the scene.

Are you suggesting we should blame the French...again and for everything?:D I'm kidding... just lightening up the mood for a bit.
 
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No revolution just value for money!

I don't want revolutions. I believe that the monarchies do have a role to play in a modern society, but how do we make the royals believe that too? To me it seems, that they have either given up the fight or just really do not care about the institutions, they are born to guard and carry on. The Danish royal family is completely stuck in it's ways, but the biggest fault line within the Danish monarchy is, that we have a Crown Prince, who :ohmy:does not really want the top job. He wants all the nice privileges, but not the duties. How do we solve that problem. Do we let him off the hook? I think we do. One way forward for the monarchies could be, that at a certain age heirs to the throne have to decide if they want in or out.
 
How do you know he doesn't want the top job?
Perhaps it's just this very strange position of a crownprince he doesn't really feel comfortable in (though I think he looks much more comfortable in it now than he used to in earlier days, he just doesn't feel too comfortable whenever he has to face the media - as does the queen IMO).
Might well be he blossoms like a flower once he has the top job.
 
well, the French DID get rid of their royal family, not that I think anyone would ever cut the head of Mary, BUT I don't think the royals today can just carry on doing exactly as they please. Frederik and Mary are not conceived as being hard working and respected, but as being nice and sympathetic - in our cost benefit societies, that just not enough!

How do you know he doesn't want the top job?
Perhaps it's just this very strange position of a crownprince he doesn't really feel comfortable in (though I think he looks much more comfortable in it now than he used to in earlier days, he just doesn't feel too comfortable whenever he has to face the media - as does the queen IMO).
Might well be he blossoms like a flower once he has the top job.

Oh, I KNOW! For my book "1015 Copenhagen K," which will be out in an English version within two weeks worldwide, I conducted many, many interviews with friends of Frederik's. These days he has grown used to the fact, that he will one day have to be king, but he still sees it as a heavy, heavy, heavy burden. If there was a way out, he wold grab it in a heart beat!:)
 
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I was wondering how you came to the conclusion that the monarchs (or Margrethe even, since this is the Danish forum) gave up the 'fight' and do not believe in the monarchy? To me it seems your main issue is indeed CP Frederik, that he doesn' t want the 'fight', not any other Danish royal.

Doesn' t the heir have the opportunity to ' get out' if he wants to? Of course it would cause trouble and it is not a step that any heir will lightly take, but I suppose that legally there are ways that Frederik can renounce his rights in favour of his brother (or since he has children now, in favor of his son) . Or is that option lacking in Denmark?
 
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Well, it can be argued the other way around too. In a European Union that slowly tries to become a monster state there is an added need in regions for symbols of their identity. The monarchy can play a role in this movement. Even in the EU gets a president the countries will keep their own heads of state, so...

I hadn't thought of it like that. I think that yes, the monarchy can play an important role as far as the individual identities go.

Just out of curiosity, those who say that the monarchy should modernize and change: what should they change? We just had a poll here in The Netherlands, most of the people who participated in the poll wanted the monarchy to modernize too, but when asked HOW... no awnsers to that. And as 94% said that the CP and his wife did a good job, I fail to see why/ what should be modernized. So what should be modernized in Denmark in this case?

I am going to sort of dodge this question, but going to answer it in my own way too. When I talk about modernising the monarchy, I feel that it needs to keep up with the state dinners, new years celebrations, balcony appearances etc. But I also feel that perhaps they could benefit from ensuring relevance in todays world. Perhaps along with the work they do within Denmark, they can increase their work for global causes too.
I am frustrating myself because I am not finding myself able to express exactly what I want, so my apologies...

----


I think this question has been raised ever since there was something like the French Revolution and republicanism appeared on the scene.

Royal families have less political significance now though dont they
 
Might well be he blossoms like a flower once he has the top job.


He's forty years old. How much more blossoming does he need?

If he hasn't found his stride or some sort of strength to carry on the task by now, oh boy... the question is: Will he ever? The poor guy, at times during official functions, looks terrified and incredibly unsure if he is doing the right thing on his own.

Frederik is in a very tricky position. How? Shifts in migration as I noted on page one. There is a massive migration to Western countries, illegal and non, and with it comes different thinking and attitudes. Furthermore, you have the expansion of the EU. Twenty years down the line when Frederik is 60 years old, Denmark will not be like it is today in regards to its cultural mix... then what? How is he going to handle a nation of immigrants, second or third generation, who've come from corrupt countries and perhaps loathe anything that involves hereditary positions.


Another comment, if Joahcim were to take over instead of Frederik would he be any better? Sure he has the "presence", but does he have the skills and would people be receptive to him? I'm not sure if changing heirs if is the answer if it comes to keeping the monarchy in Denmark.


:flowers:


You expressed yourself well, Marmi. :)
 
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If the RF positiones itself well the immigrants do not have to be a problem. I am sorry for comparing apples to oranges again, but the support among immigrants for my own RF is even higher than that among the non-immigrants, since HM and CP Maxima both are very much involved in the well being of these groups and frequently spoke out for more tolerance, acceptance etc etc.
But I believe to recall that Q. Margrethe II did have some negative comments about immigration not too long ago, so I suppose that the Danish RF has a different position in the debate. It might be an option to get CP Mary involved with the causes of immigrants in Denmark, since she is an immigrant herself. On the other hand, Mary would get herself into the middle of one of the main political debates of Western Europe, which can lead to critisism too (as it did with CP Maxima and Queen B.).

To Marmi: I suppose that CP Frederik and his struggle to become a member of the IOC would be a step in the good direction (provided he is able to function well in that position).
 
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Oh, I KNOW! For my book "1015 Copenhagen K," which will be out in an English version within two weeks worldwide, I conducted many, many interviews with friends of Frederik's. These days he has grown used to the fact, that he will one day have to be king, but he still sees it as a heavy, heavy, heavy burden. If there was a way out, he wold grab it in a heart beat!:)
I know the real purpose of your being here is to promote the English version of your book but really, do have you have to do it quite so obviously?
Besides, I doubt any of Frederik's friends talked with you.

Frederik himself admitted that he had problems to accept his position (as had others, e.g. his own mother or Prince WA) but he has obviously accepted his fate, he has fulfilled his duties regarding education, marriage, naming of his son and heir...., and therefore I don't quite see why he shouldn't be a good king one day. What he would do if things were different is pure speculation.
 
I know the real purpose of your being here is to promote the English version of your book but really, do have you have to do it quite so obviously?
Besides, I doubt any of Frederik's friends talked with you.

Frederik himself admitted that he had problems to accept his position (as had others, e.g. his own mother or Prince WA) but he has obviously accepted his fate, he has fulfilled his duties regarding education, marriage, naming of his son and heir...., and therefore I don't quite see why he shouldn't be a good king one day. What he would do if things were different is pure speculation.

Well, you would be surprised! I am here, because I actually has some knowledge of what we are debating! I mention my book to establish my credentials! Frederik's problems are deeply rooted and go back to his earliest childhood. I am not saying, that he can't one day become a good king, but he needs help in order to achieve that goal. Right now, he is utterly lost. Who can help him? Not people like you, who think everything is honky-dory and we should just leave him alone. if we leave CP Frederik to himself, his son will never be king. Frederik needs professional help with his issues! Any modern corporation would make that help available, if their second-in-command faced the same problems. Why is it so much of a taboo to let people know, that the heir to the throne is really struggling and :flowers: needs help?

I was wondering how you came to the conclusion that the monarchs (or Margrethe even, since this is the Danish forum) gave up the 'fight' and do not believe in the monarchy? To me it seems your main issue is indeed CP Frederik, that he doesn' t want the 'fight', not any other Danish royal.

Doesn' t the heir have the opportunity to ' get out' if he wants to? Of course it would cause trouble and it is not a step that any heir will lightly take, but I suppose that legally there are ways that Frederik can renounce his rights in favour of his brother (or since he has children now, in favor of his son) . Or is that option lacking in Denmark?

The Danish monarchy of today is further removed from it's people, than it was a generation ago. Margrethe has a lot of respect, but it is a fact that she has stood on pomp and circumstances far more than her parents King Frederik IX and Queen Ingrid ever did. Not that they were not formal and regal, they certainly were, especially Queen Ingrid, but they managed to convey a sense of down-to-earthness - bad expression, sorry - to the Danes. They seemed far more approachable than Margrethe ever has. A recent example of how much Queen Margrethe looks back instead of forward is the adding of the Monpezat titles to Frederik, Joachim and their families. We all know, that Henrik is a vain old Alpha-male, who is desperate to secure his legacy within the Danish monarchy. To that end he has insisted on adding the title of Count de Monpezat to Frederik and Joachim, their spouses and off spring. Why does the Queen consent to that? What good will it do the Danish monarchy, that the descendants carry ;) the Monpezat name. It sends a wrong signal to the Danes. It tells them, that "We" - as in the Majestic plural - are far more interested in ancient titles, than in modernizing the monarchy. It would have suited Frederik if he had turned down that offer!
 
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