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  #81  
Old 05-13-2008, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyCat View Post
Hmmm Join date 12/2007 - Nope, not around for the big Charles and Camilla announcement. Sorry I missed it!!! Is it archived in their subforum?

Cat
In the interests of not derailing the thread, I'm PMing you the link.
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  #82  
Old 05-14-2008, 12:10 AM
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Thank you, Elspeth. I have a feeling it would be pretty hard to derail this particular thread but at least we've lightened it up a bit!

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  #83  
Old 05-14-2008, 02:49 AM
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Okay, I think CP Frederik should "pull his fingers out." What kind of information do I base that opinion on? His own website. In 2007, CP Frederik's own royal website states, he had approximately 70 - seventy - official engagements, give and take a few depending on how you count. In the same year, 2007, the Duke of Edinburg, who is pushing 90 years, had 380 -three hundrede and eighty.

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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
In the more serious threads around the forum, if someone asserts something that is factual and checkable and someone else asks for backup data, it's the responsibility of the original poster to provide it.

So if you wouldn't mind posting some numbers to back up your claim that the monarchy is increasingly unpopular, as well as identifying the source of those numbers, it would be much appreciated.

Thank you.



Maybe leave that decision to the form moderators?
Sorry my attempt at being funny completely bombed here! The latest poll taken on whether or not the Danes support Frederik's IOC-candidacy showed, that only around fifty percent supported his candidacy. For a monarchy, whose "approval rating" never goes below 80 percent, that is bad news. It means that half the country disagrees with the path taken by their CP. I sthat what the royals are here for: To divide their people?
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  #84  
Old 05-14-2008, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Villemann View Post
Okay, I think CP Frederik should "pull his fingers out." What kind of information do I base that opinion on? His own website. In 2007, CP Frederik's own royal website states, he had approximately 70 - seventy - official engagements, give and take a few depending on how you count. In the same year, 2007, the Duke of Edinburg, who is pushing 90 years, had 380 -three hundrede and eighty.
Yes, I believe you already presented this as a type of evidence way back in this thread and that Elspeth (I think it was) commented on the different ways the royal houses count engagements. Rehashing the same stuff is not terribly exciting.
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  #85  
Old 05-14-2008, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Villemann View Post


Sorry my attempt at being funny completely bombed here! The latest poll taken on whether or not the Danes support Frederik's IOC-candidacy showed, that only around fifty percent supported his candidacy. For a monarchy, whose "approval rating" never goes below 80 percent, that is bad news. It means that half the country disagrees with the path taken by their CP. I sthat what the royals are here for: To divide their people?
Was this a legitimate poll or just an online survey where one answers yes or no to a question? To your knowledge, were there more than one poll? The reason I'm asking is that sometimes, polls are worded to get certain predictable results so that in effect the polls and the newspapers in which they are published are more divisive than the people about whom the polls were created.
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  #86  
Old 05-14-2008, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by UserDane View Post
Yes, I believe you already presented this as a type of evidence way back in this thread and that Elspeth (I think it was) commented on the different ways the royal houses count engagements. Rehashing the same stuff is not terribly exciting.
Not rehashing, simply stating facts provided by the royals themselves! Is there any other way of counting royal engagements?

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Was this a legitimate poll or just an online survey where one answers yes or no to a question? To your knowledge, were there more than one poll? The reason I'm asking is that sometimes, polls are worded to get certain predictable results so that in effect the polls and the newspapers in which they are published are more divisive than the people about whom the polls were created.
It was not an online poll. It was carried out by a polling agency on behalf of one of the broadsheet - either Politiken or Jyllands Posten, I think. I will find it!
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  #87  
Old 05-14-2008, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Villemann View Post
Okay, I think CP Frederik should "pull his fingers out." What kind of information do I base that opinion on? His own website. In 2007, CP Frederik's own royal website states, he had approximately 70 - seventy - official engagements, give and take a few depending on how you count. In the same year, 2007, the Duke of Edinburgh, who is pushing 90 years, had 380 -three hundrede and eighty.
As I said before, the British have a different way of counting their engagements than the other royals. They always come up with an enormous amount of engagements as they list each and every part of a visit as a seperate engagement.

For example the Danes would list : CP Frederik visited Aarhus this morning to visit a hospital (as 1 event)
In the UK: The Duke of Edinburgh went in the car to Glasgow (1), he was greeted by the mayor (2) after which he spoke to the staff of the hospital (3). He visited some patients (4) and after that he enjoyed lunch in the restaurant of the hospital (5).

I am not saying that the DoE doesn't have a busy life for a man his age, but as the British royals count things like that you can not compare it to the more modest way of counting done by most continental families.

If you/anyone want to see if CP Frederik has more or less engagement than the average royals it would be a start to count how many engagements his continental counterparts have. As most RF's publish their agenda's and count the engagements in a simular way that should not be too difficult. But comparing to the British is not an honest comparison, as said, they cheat ...

Still, that doesn't mean that 70 engagements, counting the continental way, is a high amount indeed. Esp. as it also includes things like christenings and such. I share your impression that Frederik does enjoy a lot of free time indeed, more than any other crownprince(ss) of his generation.
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  #88  
Old 05-14-2008, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Villemann View Post
Okay, I think CP Frederik should "pull his fingers out." What kind of information do I base that opinion on? His own website. In 2007, CP Frederik's own royal website states, he had approximately 70 - seventy - official engagements, give and take a few depending on how you count. In the same year, 2007, the Duke of Edinburg, who is pushing 90 years, had 380 -three hundrede and eighty.
I still think it's not right to compare such different people. They belong to different countries and their role is different too. But 380 official engagements compared to 70 is a Huge difference! Anyway, more important than quantity is quality, and IMO Frederik and Mary are doing a good job. Here at the TRF, most Danish posters like them, from what I can read on the Danish Forums. I think Queen Margareth won't be the last Monarch of Denmark, and Monarchy is still worthy because the people is with them.
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  #89  
Old 05-14-2008, 04:24 AM
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It was not an online poll. It was carried out by a polling agency on behalf of one of the broadsheet - either Politiken or Jyllands Posten, I think. I will find it!
The poll was carried out by Capacent Epinion for DR News in April of this year. It shows that 42 percent of the Danes support CP Frederik's IOC candidacy. 33 percent oppose it. 16 percent neither support nor oppose it and 8 percent don't have an opinion.

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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
As I said before, the British have a different way of counting their engagements than the other royals. They always come up with an enormous amount of engagements as they list each and every part of a visit as a seperate engagement.

For example the Danes would list : CP Frederik visited Aarhus this morning to visit a hospital (as 1 event)
In the UK: The Duke of Edinburgh went in the car to Glasgow (1), he was greeted by the mayor (2) after which he spoke to the staff of the hospital (3). He visited some patients (4) and after that he enjoyed lunch in the restaurant of the hospital (5).

I am not saying that the DoE doesn't have a busy life for a man his age, but as the British royals count things like that you can not compare it to the more modest way of counting done by most continental families.



If you/anyone want to see if CP Frederik has more or less engagement than the average royals it would be a start to count how many engagements his continental counterparts have. As most RF's publish their agenda's and count the engagements in a simular way that should not be too difficult. But comparing to the British is not an honest comparison, as said, they cheat ...

Still, that doesn't mean that 70 engagements, counting the continental way, is a high amount indeed. Esp. as it also includes things like christenings and such. I share your impression that Frederik does enjoy a lot of free time indeed, more than any other crownprince(ss) of his generation.
I take your point about different ways of counting these engagements, but if you say the British are cheating, how about the Danes? Frederik's sailing is INCLUDED in his official engagements. When he is racing his Farr40 boat somewhere in the world, it counts as a royal engagement! The palace argument: "He is representing Denmark!"
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  #90  
Old 05-14-2008, 04:55 AM
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It means that half the country disagrees with the path taken by their CP

that only around fifty percent supported his candidacy
So your saying 50% of the Danish populous don't support the Crown Prince's candidacy to the IOC which can only suggest, by your above statement, that every Danish citizen, participated in the survey.
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  #91  
Old 05-14-2008, 05:05 AM
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Well, you don't have to ask each and every Dane what they think to get such an outcome. Polling is reliable enough, as long as they selected enough respondents that are representable for the Danish public, and of course with a margin of 5% failure possibility (if I remember my statistic courses well enough ).

I think Villemann's point is that the IOC membership of CP Frederik was/is controversial in Denmark and that it placed the monarchy in a bad light. That is true of course, and something we were all able to witness. Still, much of the people who are now against the IOC canidacy of CP Frederik might turn around if they see that the CP is doing a good job. A simular thing happened in my own country for example. But that is provided that he is up to the job.

Quote:
I take your point about different ways of counting these engagements, but if you say the British are cheating, how about the Danes? Frederik's sailing is INCLUDED in his official engagements. When he is racing his Farr40 boat somewhere in the world, it counts as a royal engagement! The palace argument: "He is representing Denmark!"
well, I agree with you that it is rather dubious to pass hobbies as engagements. In how many of those sailing competitions did he join the last months?
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  #92  
Old 05-14-2008, 05:19 AM
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Then show me that those who participated in the survey are adequate respondents that are representable for the Danish public. Numbers of online participants would be appreciated, or whatever medium was taken so we can all 'see' the statistical divisions which apparently make up half the nation.
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  #93  
Old 05-14-2008, 05:25 AM
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Well, I would not know one thing about companies who do surveys in Denmark, so I am not able to do such a thing. And IMO it is not needed either. One can argue about the precise percentages and other details, but as I said, it is obvious that the IOC business was and is rather controversial, both in the press as in public opinion. Note that I do not think controversy is a bad thing per se, or that it should be a reason why CP Frederik should not become a member of the IOC, but that it is controversial is evident. And that was the point of Villemann's original post on this matter, before we started squabling about details.
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  #94  
Old 05-14-2008, 05:31 AM
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Controversial. Appareantly so and as you said, that's not a bad thing. It shows democracy is up and running.

Squabling? Unfortunate you see it that way but oh well. As for details? Why, that's what makes things worthwhile, so I've always thought. Just attempting to better understand. No more, no less. I think we can all agree it's a circumstance which has stirred thought and question. No one could deny that.

All is well.
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  #95  
Old 05-14-2008, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Well, you don't have to ask each and every Dane what they think to get such an outcome. Polling is reliable enough, as long as they selected enough respondents that are representable for the Danish public, and of course with a margin of 5% failure possibility (if I remember my statistic courses well enough ).

I think Villemann's point is that the IOC membership of CP Frederik was/is controversial in Denmark and that it placed the monarchy in a bad light. That is true of course, and something we were all able to witness. Still, much of the people who are now against the IOC canidacy of CP Frederik might turn around if they see that the CP is doing a good job. A simular thing happened in my own country for example. But that is provided that he is up to the job.



well, I agree with you that it is rather dubious to pass hobbies as engagements. In how many of those sailing competitions did he join the last months?
Last month, CP Frederik was away on "official business" off the coast of Miami for 10 days racing his Farr40 boat! Mary and the children flew in a few days later, which meant that neither Frederik nor his wife and children were present on the balcony at Amalienborg palace , when Queen Margrethe celebrated her 68th birthday!

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Last month, CP Frederik was away on "official business" off the coast of Miami for 10 days racing his Farr40 boat! Mary and the children flew in a few days later, which meant that neither Frederik nor his wife and children were present on the balcony at Amalienborg palace , when Queen Margrethe celebrated her 68th birthday!
Let me correct myself here. CP Frederik was away on "official business" on the waters off Miami for 8 days in April. Just checked his calendar!
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  #96  
Old 05-14-2008, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Villemann View Post
Okay, I think CP Frederik should "pull his fingers out." What kind of information do I base that opinion on? His own website. In 2007, CP Frederik's own royal website states, he had approximately 70 - seventy - official engagements, give and take a few depending on how you count. In the same year, 2007, the Duke of Edinburg, who is pushing 90 years, had 380 -three hundrede and eighty.
It is grossly unfair to compare Fred's calendar to that of the Duke of Edinburgh. It would also be unfair to compare the engagements of Fred's GB counterpart, the Prince of Wales. The population difference alone between GB and Denmark is enough to show how unfair such a comparison is. Is there a Crown Prince(ss) in another monarchy with a similar population to Denmark to compare his engagements to?

And I am sure there are unofficial engagements that are not shown on the website. Private meetings, etc.

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Old 05-14-2008, 09:22 AM
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It is grossly unfair to compare Fred's calendar to that of the Duke of Edinburgh.
The Duke of Edinburgh is unique and would withstand any comparison, even among his peers, male or female (in Denmark's case Prince Henrik) One could as well compare CP Mary's enagements with those of Queen Elizabeth II - pointless.

Overall I see all monarchies in danger and I doubt many of them will survive the next 100 or 200 years. It's not a danish problem. For me royals will lose their purpose because the new generation has already turned into commoners who don't stand out from the public any longer. Fred preferres to sail, Charles - I don't have to mention, WA, Felipe & Haakon chosing wives with a questionable past / family history etc. Some countries might survive longer because of a strong history (Britain) or because they are cool about their royals (Dutch and maybe the Danes) but all others, sooner or later they will be gone. Many heirs or spouses simply don't bring along the needed attitude to guide a monarchy into the future and how could they? Many of the heirs have been brought up as normal as possible themselves, got married to commoners. Change of generations and society will be so brute that there won't be a future for monarchies any longer, that's at least my prediciton.
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Old 05-14-2008, 10:08 AM
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As I said before, the British have a different way of counting their engagements than the other royals. They always come up with an enormous amount of engagements as they list each and every part of a visit as a seperate engagement.

For example the Danes would list : CP Frederik visited Aarhus this morning to visit a hospital (as 1 event)
In the UK: The Duke of Edinburgh went in the car to Glasgow (1), he was greeted by the mayor (2) after which he spoke to the staff of the hospital (3). He visited some patients (4) and after that he enjoyed lunch in the restaurant of the hospital (5).

I am not saying that the DoE doesn't have a busy life for a man his age, but as the British royals count things like that you can not compare it to the more modest way of counting done by most continental families.
I must say that's news to me. Are you saying that when the Duke (or other royal) goes on a visit, every single facet of a visit to a particular place is counted as a separate visit? Certainly if he spends half a day visiting Glasgow and opens a school, visits a factory, attends a reception for DoE Award winners, and has lunch with the Mayor, it'd count as four events rather than one even though they were part of the visit to one city. But to say that meeting staff and visiting patients and having lunch in the same hospital counts as three engagements? And that simply turning up counts as another one? Since when?
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Old 05-14-2008, 10:23 AM
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Perhaps I have overdid it in my example, but AKAIK the British indeed partition their engagement which leads to such a high number. That they do their own counting and provide the information to the media also helps. The Dutch royals (and the Danish too AFAIK) just publish whatever they want n the website (note that they do not publish everything, here at TRF we have a more detailed agenda than the websites of the RF's provide) and let the press do the counting. Consequently they count a state visit as one event (or 3 at best, 1 for each day) while if they would have been more precise they would count the 10 different parts of the programme as they do in Britain.
And just from my own observation, I know the DoE has a lot to do for a man of his age and he and his wife are still exceptionally busy, but there is no way in the world that he has more engagements in a year than for example the prince of Asturias, which is the case if we look at just the numbers.
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Old 05-14-2008, 01:56 PM
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While it is always nice to see pictures of the royals and hear about their lives, if I was Danish, I am not sure that I would want my tax dollars to support such an institution. While tax dollars probably goes to the upkeep of the homes and staff, seeing Mary dressed in Gucci, Prada etc would make me a little upset.
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