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  #21  
Old 05-13-2008, 04:46 AM
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I think this question has been raised ever since there was something like the French Revolution and republicanism appeared on the scene.
Are you suggesting we should blame the French...again and for everything? I'm kidding... just lightening up the mood for a bit.
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  #22  
Old 05-13-2008, 04:53 AM
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No revolution just value for money!

I don't want revolutions. I believe that the monarchies do have a role to play in a modern society, but how do we make the royals believe that too? To me it seems, that they have either given up the fight or just really do not care about the institutions, they are born to guard and carry on. The Danish royal family is completely stuck in it's ways, but the biggest fault line within the Danish monarchy is, that we have a Crown Prince, who does not really want the top job. He wants all the nice privileges, but not the duties. How do we solve that problem. Do we let him off the hook? I think we do. One way forward for the monarchies could be, that at a certain age heirs to the throne have to decide if they want in or out.
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  #23  
Old 05-13-2008, 05:01 AM
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How do you know he doesn't want the top job?
Perhaps it's just this very strange position of a crownprince he doesn't really feel comfortable in (though I think he looks much more comfortable in it now than he used to in earlier days, he just doesn't feel too comfortable whenever he has to face the media - as does the queen IMO).
Might well be he blossoms like a flower once he has the top job.
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  #24  
Old 05-13-2008, 05:03 AM
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well, the French DID get rid of their royal family, not that I think anyone would ever cut the head of Mary, BUT I don't think the royals today can just carry on doing exactly as they please. Frederik and Mary are not conceived as being hard working and respected, but as being nice and sympathetic - in our cost benefit societies, that just not enough!

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Originally Posted by ricarda View Post
How do you know he doesn't want the top job?
Perhaps it's just this very strange position of a crownprince he doesn't really feel comfortable in (though I think he looks much more comfortable in it now than he used to in earlier days, he just doesn't feel too comfortable whenever he has to face the media - as does the queen IMO).
Might well be he blossoms like a flower once he has the top job.
Oh, I KNOW! For my book "1015 Copenhagen K," which will be out in an English version within two weeks worldwide, I conducted many, many interviews with friends of Frederik's. These days he has grown used to the fact, that he will one day have to be king, but he still sees it as a heavy, heavy, heavy burden. If there was a way out, he wold grab it in a heart beat!
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  #25  
Old 05-13-2008, 05:07 AM
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I was wondering how you came to the conclusion that the monarchs (or Margrethe even, since this is the Danish forum) gave up the 'fight' and do not believe in the monarchy? To me it seems your main issue is indeed CP Frederik, that he doesn' t want the 'fight', not any other Danish royal.

Doesn' t the heir have the opportunity to ' get out' if he wants to? Of course it would cause trouble and it is not a step that any heir will lightly take, but I suppose that legally there are ways that Frederik can renounce his rights in favour of his brother (or since he has children now, in favor of his son) . Or is that option lacking in Denmark?
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  #26  
Old 05-13-2008, 05:15 AM
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Well, it can be argued the other way around too. In a European Union that slowly tries to become a monster state there is an added need in regions for symbols of their identity. The monarchy can play a role in this movement. Even in the EU gets a president the countries will keep their own heads of state, so...
I hadn't thought of it like that. I think that yes, the monarchy can play an important role as far as the individual identities go.

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Just out of curiosity, those who say that the monarchy should modernize and change: what should they change? We just had a poll here in The Netherlands, most of the people who participated in the poll wanted the monarchy to modernize too, but when asked HOW... no awnsers to that. And as 94% said that the CP and his wife did a good job, I fail to see why/ what should be modernized. So what should be modernized in Denmark in this case?
I am going to sort of dodge this question, but going to answer it in my own way too. When I talk about modernising the monarchy, I feel that it needs to keep up with the state dinners, new years celebrations, balcony appearances etc. But I also feel that perhaps they could benefit from ensuring relevance in todays world. Perhaps along with the work they do within Denmark, they can increase their work for global causes too.
I am frustrating myself because I am not finding myself able to express exactly what I want, so my apologies...

----


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I think this question has been raised ever since there was something like the French Revolution and republicanism appeared on the scene.
Royal families have less political significance now though dont they
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  #27  
Old 05-13-2008, 05:17 AM
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Might well be he blossoms like a flower once he has the top job.

He's forty years old. How much more blossoming does he need?

If he hasn't found his stride or some sort of strength to carry on the task by now, oh boy... the question is: Will he ever? The poor guy, at times during official functions, looks terrified and incredibly unsure if he is doing the right thing on his own.

Frederik is in a very tricky position. How? Shifts in migration as I noted on page one. There is a massive migration to Western countries, illegal and non, and with it comes different thinking and attitudes. Furthermore, you have the expansion of the EU. Twenty years down the line when Frederik is 60 years old, Denmark will not be like it is today in regards to its cultural mix... then what? How is he going to handle a nation of immigrants, second or third generation, who've come from corrupt countries and perhaps loathe anything that involves hereditary positions.


Another comment, if Joahcim were to take over instead of Frederik would he be any better? Sure he has the "presence", but does he have the skills and would people be receptive to him? I'm not sure if changing heirs if is the answer if it comes to keeping the monarchy in Denmark.





You expressed yourself well, Marmi. :)
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  #28  
Old 05-13-2008, 05:24 AM
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If the RF positiones itself well the immigrants do not have to be a problem. I am sorry for comparing apples to oranges again, but the support among immigrants for my own RF is even higher than that among the non-immigrants, since HM and CP Maxima both are very much involved in the well being of these groups and frequently spoke out for more tolerance, acceptance etc etc.
But I believe to recall that Q. Margrethe II did have some negative comments about immigration not too long ago, so I suppose that the Danish RF has a different position in the debate. It might be an option to get CP Mary involved with the causes of immigrants in Denmark, since she is an immigrant herself. On the other hand, Mary would get herself into the middle of one of the main political debates of Western Europe, which can lead to critisism too (as it did with CP Maxima and Queen B.).

To Marmi: I suppose that CP Frederik and his struggle to become a member of the IOC would be a step in the good direction (provided he is able to function well in that position).
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  #29  
Old 05-13-2008, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Villemann View Post
Oh, I KNOW! For my book "1015 Copenhagen K," which will be out in an English version within two weeks worldwide, I conducted many, many interviews with friends of Frederik's. These days he has grown used to the fact, that he will one day have to be king, but he still sees it as a heavy, heavy, heavy burden. If there was a way out, he wold grab it in a heart beat!
I know the real purpose of your being here is to promote the English version of your book but really, do have you have to do it quite so obviously?
Besides, I doubt any of Frederik's friends talked with you.

Frederik himself admitted that he had problems to accept his position (as had others, e.g. his own mother or Prince WA) but he has obviously accepted his fate, he has fulfilled his duties regarding education, marriage, naming of his son and heir...., and therefore I don't quite see why he shouldn't be a good king one day. What he would do if things were different is pure speculation.
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  #30  
Old 05-13-2008, 05:44 AM
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I know the real purpose of your being here is to promote the English version of your book but really, do have you have to do it quite so obviously?
Besides, I doubt any of Frederik's friends talked with you.

Frederik himself admitted that he had problems to accept his position (as had others, e.g. his own mother or Prince WA) but he has obviously accepted his fate, he has fulfilled his duties regarding education, marriage, naming of his son and heir...., and therefore I don't quite see why he shouldn't be a good king one day. What he would do if things were different is pure speculation.
Well, you would be surprised! I am here, because I actually has some knowledge of what we are debating! I mention my book to establish my credentials! Frederik's problems are deeply rooted and go back to his earliest childhood. I am not saying, that he can't one day become a good king, but he needs help in order to achieve that goal. Right now, he is utterly lost. Who can help him? Not people like you, who think everything is honky-dory and we should just leave him alone. if we leave CP Frederik to himself, his son will never be king. Frederik needs professional help with his issues! Any modern corporation would make that help available, if their second-in-command faced the same problems. Why is it so much of a taboo to let people know, that the heir to the throne is really struggling and needs help?

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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
I was wondering how you came to the conclusion that the monarchs (or Margrethe even, since this is the Danish forum) gave up the 'fight' and do not believe in the monarchy? To me it seems your main issue is indeed CP Frederik, that he doesn' t want the 'fight', not any other Danish royal.

Doesn' t the heir have the opportunity to ' get out' if he wants to? Of course it would cause trouble and it is not a step that any heir will lightly take, but I suppose that legally there are ways that Frederik can renounce his rights in favour of his brother (or since he has children now, in favor of his son) . Or is that option lacking in Denmark?
The Danish monarchy of today is further removed from it's people, than it was a generation ago. Margrethe has a lot of respect, but it is a fact that she has stood on pomp and circumstances far more than her parents King Frederik IX and Queen Ingrid ever did. Not that they were not formal and regal, they certainly were, especially Queen Ingrid, but they managed to convey a sense of down-to-earthness - bad expression, sorry - to the Danes. They seemed far more approachable than Margrethe ever has. A recent example of how much Queen Margrethe looks back instead of forward is the adding of the Monpezat titles to Frederik, Joachim and their families. We all know, that Henrik is a vain old Alpha-male, who is desperate to secure his legacy within the Danish monarchy. To that end he has insisted on adding the title of Count de Monpezat to Frederik and Joachim, their spouses and off spring. Why does the Queen consent to that? What good will it do the Danish monarchy, that the descendants carry the Monpezat name. It sends a wrong signal to the Danes. It tells them, that "We" - as in the Majestic plural - are far more interested in ancient titles, than in modernizing the monarchy. It would have suited Frederik if he had turned down that offer!
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  #31  
Old 05-13-2008, 05:54 AM
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He's forty years old. How much more blossoming does he need?
The point is he is not king yet, 40 or 39.
I was clearly referring to his position not to his age.
I said that he might not feel well as a cp but perhaps he will blossom as a king. (I was actually thinking of the film "The Madness of King George" where it is said that being a crownprince isn't a position but an emergency case.)

The DRF doesn't have a political function, they are there to represent the country. They don't have to handle problems, that's up to the politicians. Besides, regarding cultural mix, I think an open-minded,modern person like Frederik will probably be more suitable to represent a culturally mixed nation than his mother.

To Marengo
Mary is engaged with the immigrant issue, she visited immigrant areas and presented integration prizes, in accordance with the Ministry of Integration.

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Who can help him? Not people like you, who think everything is honky-dory and we should just leave him alone. if we leave CP Frederik to himself, his son will never be king.
< ed - Warren >
I don't think that everything is honky-dory, Frederik should work on his language and speech skills for example, but I happen to think that Frederik's and the RF's greatest problem at the moment are people like you and your Ekstrabladet/Se&Hoer fellows who would write anything to sell.
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  #32  
Old 05-13-2008, 06:20 AM
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You are shooting at the messenger

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Originally Posted by ricarda View Post
I don't think that everything is honky-dory, Frederik should work on his language and speech skills for example, but I happen to think that Frederik's and the RF's greatest problem at the moment are people like you and your Ekstrabladet/Se&Hoer fellows who would write anything to sell.
What's wrong with making money if one is indeed doing that? What is wrong with the broadsheet Berlingske Tidende selling lots of papers, when CP Frederik and his wife gave a long interview about family life? What's wrong with Billed Bladet selling loads of copies each week spinning for the royals? Authors Annelise Bidstrup and Ninka have made money from their royal interview books. What's wrong with that? Is it merely wrong because I present a far less glossy portrait of the royals? Because I describe them as the human beings they really are? Because I dare ask some critical questions of the monarchy?
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  #33  
Old 05-13-2008, 06:24 AM
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- Just as a reminder, please refrain from any personal attacks. As most of you know perfectly well by now, those are not allowed at TRF. If you feel the need to ' defend' a royal of your liking please do yourself and us a favour and keep your posts about him/her and NOT about the person you are replying to.
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  #34  
Old 05-13-2008, 09:30 AM
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Please don't get me wrong, I really like Fred and Mary! I really think that Fred is not happy about becoming King. When you look at pictures of Fred at his events vs while he is doing things he enjoys like sailing you clearly see a different person. When I see Fred and Mary, I always think for the BRF Queen Mother. She was the main person and George was very much like Fred. I wish them all the best and I do think that Mary will keep thing together just like the Queen Mother.
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  #35  
Old 05-13-2008, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Villemann View Post
I don't want revolutions. I believe that the monarchies do have a role to play in a modern society, but how do we make the royals believe that too? To me it seems, that they have either given up the fight or just really do not care about the institutions, they are born to guard and carry on. The Danish royal family is completely stuck in it's ways, but the biggest fault line within the Danish monarchy is, that we have a Crown Prince, who does not really want the top job. He wants all the nice privileges, but not the duties. How do we solve that problem. Do we let him off the hook? I think we do. One way forward for the monarchies could be, that at a certain age heirs to the throne have to decide if they want in or out.
I understand this is specifically on the Danish Monarchy. But with regard to change, this is such a vague loaded word. There have been changes in the last years that may have been the reason Monarchies will be facing their demise in another generation or so. We have an ex troubled waitress with a trouble past, a tax driver's grand daughter,a crown princess with 50% of commoneer blood, a daughter of an official in a junta that caused the death of many thousands, a prince who fathered two illegitimate children, a future king who has been dating the same girl for a few years openly and all one has to attribute to her is that she managed not to blab to the media and so forth. These are the "future" of the Monarchy in Europe. When there is a fatigue with them they will have outlived their usefulness and people will tire of paying all these sums of money to take a glimpse of them all decked in thei fineries during galas and parades.
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Old 05-13-2008, 09:41 AM
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Please don't get me wrong, I really like Fred and Mary! I really think that Fred is not happy about becoming King. When you look at pictures of Fred at his events vs while he is doing things he enjoys like sailing you clearly see a different person. When I see Fred and Mary, I always think for the BRF Queen Mother. She was the main person and George was very much like Fred. I wish them all the best and I do think that Mary will keep thing together just like the Queen Mother.
I hope you are right about Mary - if not, the Danish Monarcy is facing really hard times, because the younger generations of Danes have no respect for people, who live a privileged lifestyle without attributing anything themselves! As a royalist, I want to see mary succeed, but she can't wait forever. She needs to sort out her husband and her in-laws before its too late.

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I understand this is specifically on the Danish Monarchy. But with regard to change, this is such a vague loaded word. There have been changes in the last years that may have been the reason Monarchies will be facing their demise in another generation or so. We have an ex troubled waitress with a trouble past, a tax driver's grand daughter,a crown princess with 50% of commoneer blood, a daughter of an official in a junta that caused the death of many thousands, a prince who fathered two illegitimate children, a future king who has been dating the same girl for a few years openly and all one has to attribute to her is that she managed not to blab to the media and so forth. These are the "future" of the Monarchy in Europe. When there is a fatigue with them they will have outlived their usefulness and people will tire of paying all these sums of money to take a glimpse of them all decked in thei fineries during galas and parades.
Odette, I agree entirely. There will be fatigue and eventually demise if the royals do not hear the wake up call.I think the commoner girls can be an advantage, because they bring not only fresh DNA to the royal houses, but also experience in everyday life and - in some cases - they have had a professional career before they became royal. The problem is, that these girl do not seem to trust their skills. They carry on the duties and traditions, that have been around for generations. Look at Mary. I am sure, she has so much to offer the Danish monarchy, but to me it seems like she has locked herself up - mentally - in the royal palace and thrown the key away.!
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Old 05-13-2008, 11:09 AM
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The Danish monarchy of today is further removed from it's people, than it was a generation ago.
I disagree with you utterly and compleatly. They are closer to their people then they have ever been before. And as for Frederik and Mary - I have no doubt that when time comes and they will take over from the Queen (may she leve till she is 100) - they will do a heck of a job.

You are intitled to have your opinion Villemann - but it seems to me, that the one distand to the sentiments of the danish people, and to the danish monarcy itselfe - is you.
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Old 05-13-2008, 11:41 AM
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I disagree with you utterly and compleatly. They are closer to their people then they have ever been before. And as for Frederik and Mary - I have no doubt that when time comes and they will take over from the Queen (may she leve till she is 100) - they will do a heck of a job.

You are intitled to have your opinion Villemann - but it seems to me, that the one distand to the sentiments of the danish people, and to the danish monarcy itselfe - is you.
As a Dane, I am just not happy with the monarchy as it is today - and I am hardly the only one. Polls might show, that we prefer Queen Margrethe to a president, but but numbers rarely tell the whole truth. Many Danes watched the royal christening last summer, but that does not make them all ardent royalists. More than anything it shows, that today's royals have become part of the celebrity culture. We don't care if we watch Paris Hilton or Princess Mary - as long as it is one of them. Hardly enough justification for holding on to this feudal institution at the top of our society. I want a monarchy, I just happen to think, the Danes deserve a better monarchy. Our royals need to pull themselves together and reform the dear, old institution. Bring it forward, make it matter again. At the moment CP Frederik is adamant about his IOC-candidacy despite the fact that the issue has divided the nation. When did it become a royal cause to split the people up? I want a monarchy that matters to me in the times we are living in!
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Old 05-13-2008, 11:50 AM
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I know the real purpose of your being here is to promote the English version of your book but really, do have you have to do it quite so obviously?
Besides, I doubt any of Frederik's friends talked with you.

Frederik himself admitted that he had problems to accept his position (as had others, e.g. his own mother or Prince WA) but he has obviously accepted his fate, he has fulfilled his duties regarding education, marriage, naming of his son and heir...., and therefore I don't quite see why he shouldn't be a good king one day. What he would do if things were different is pure speculation.
I couldn't have said this better myselfe and when it comes to the statements on this thread about reforming the danish monarcy - I ask the same question as some posters has done - what are those reforms to contain? I would very mush like to have a concrete answer. It is so eacy to criticise. It is a lot more diffecult to take the responsibility of pointing out solutions.

Anyway, I don't se any need of reforms others then those that will come naturally as times goes by. Changes for changes sake isn't the answer to anything.
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Old 05-13-2008, 11:54 AM
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I agree with Ricarda, with the Queen expected tp be on the throne for many years to come, what exactly can Frederik change. However, his book is coming out on (supposedly) changes that could be made to make the monarchy more relevant. I hope we get a recap of it in English. In any case, it shows he is aware of certain undercurrents/unrest and in my estimation I think he wants to be a king, a modern king, some day.
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