Prince Gustav and Carina Axelsson, Current Events Part 2: Aug 2009 - June 2022

[Viv]

.....the EKD decided to go for: it's not possible but under certain circumstances.... Seeing how much is possible in the EKD when it comes to the conscience and decision of a priest, I personally tend to think that it is possible.

Ok, officially the EKD does not 'perform' a non-legally-binding 'church wedding'; it's up to the conscience of the individual Pfarrer(vicar) to make a commitment-ritual os some sort! ! Eine 'Gewissensfrage' ?

.....Hope this info helps. If anyone wants to know more but does not read German, please tell me and I'll check if this question is answered in the text, which is 28 pages long... So much more in it that I could write here.

I do read German and I did pick up the stance of the EKD in 2008, before the law became effective in 2009! But I admit that I didn't read all 28 pages !

And a general comment: I don't see Gustav and Carina participating in a 'commitment-declaring' church ceremony! While they are free to act as individuals such a move would be vetoed by his parents, because of tradition - because of their relation to the Danish royal family. Besides, they are in effect aristocrats, and aristocrats don't always go by middle class standards and values. That's what tells them apart from the rest of us !
Again: I'm not saying that it couldn't happen - the Berleburgs have sported a few surprises in recent years - I'm just saying that I don't see it happening.

viv

I also agree with Not A Pretender.
Time has worked againt Carina and that interview that she gave,
showed it. Prior to that, she was always smiling, attempting to be
pleasing, amiable.

You're always showing your best sides till you're accepted by the
in-laws,right ? Anyway, I wouldn't be too hard on Carina! I agree
that the interview referred to earlier was a bit outspoken, BUT:
She's not the first 'Berleburg' to do so; if only you knew what
Prince Richard has told reporters from the DRF loyal press over
the years ! Off-hand I remember the following remarks:
- 'royalty are living in a bubble, they have no sense of reality'!
- 'Princess Benedikte was not very nice, she doesn't like illness'
(when Richard was suffering from cancer a few years ago).
plus several remarks about his being unwilling to attend royal events
and subject himself to court standards.

So there's a tradition for being outspoken in the family, except for
Princess Benedikte. She's has always tried to keep to the royal
appearences!

viv

 

[Kataryn]

That's really helpful, Kataryn. That's common in the US for exactly the reason that you state, pensioners who would lose a significant part of income (such as Social Security) if they marry, yet they desire their union to be blessed.
When Jo of Palatine first brought this up, it seems perfectly applicable for Gustav.


Isn't that what Sting and Trudy Skyler did?

AFAIK Sting is a Roman Catholic, so I don't think he could have married Trudie in church, as his first marriage was not annulled, he just divorced his first wife Frances.

 

[camelot23ca]

Is it known what proportion of the family's wealth is tied up in the estate?

 

[Viv]

Is it known what proportion of the family's wealth is tied up in the estate?

Not in detail! In connection with the crashed Gustav/Elvire de Rochefort prenup I remember reading that the majority of the family's assets were tied up in the estate. In case of a substantial divorce settlement parts of the estate would have be sold off. Something like that!
It was at the time the Berleburgs and the Rocheforts couldn't agree on what was an acceptable amount!

Viv

 

[maria-olivia]

What will happen with Prince Gustav and Carina ? Still no wedding announcement.

 

[IloveCP]

It’s Christmas with Carina Axelsson Time! And, She Speaks Again! | The Royal Correspondent

 

[IloveCP]

Recently,Gustav has earned a degree in Woodcarving.Really.

According to the German newspaper,Siegener Zeitung,Gustav took up woodcarving as a hobby and took it to the next step.

http://www.siegener-zeitung.de/a/525105

 

[Tilia C.]

Don't take this degree too seriously! It's more of a publicity gag of a local crafts museum. It seems to be kind of a tradition to do this thing each year between Christmas and New Year's Eve. They invite a prominent person from the region, let them carve a wooden spoon, and have a good excuse for drinking some Schnaps out of wooden spoons.

 

[BurberryBrit]

So Carina makes a little more headway and is the Godmother of a Danish princess. Poor thing. It's nice that they include her but I wonder if she feels awkward?

 

[Artemisia]

So Carina makes a little more headway and is the Godmother of a Danish princess. Poor thing. It's nice that they include her but I wonder if she feels awkward?

I would think she feels honoured. After all, not everyone gets to be a godmother for a Danish Princess. Carina's situation is unfortunate; however, she appears to be very much accepted by the Danish Royal Family as a full member of the family, regardless of her marital status.

 

[Lenora]

Usborne has acquired two books by model turned children's book author Carina Axelsson, with the stories combining high-end fashion, detective work and romance.
Usborne acquires two model books | The Bookseller

 

[imojeen]

Carina Axelsson is a pretty woman. I don't know her and Pr. Gustav so much.

Why aren't they married? Gustav needs a child as an heir, doesn't he?

If he will die without a child, who will inherite Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg?

 

[An Ard Ri]

If he will die without a child, who will inherite Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg?

As per Wiki

'The principality and princely title of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg descended, historically, according to semi-Salic primogeniture. If the unmarried and childless Gustav dies without legitimate issue, the family heritage devolves upon his father's younger brother, Prince Robin zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg'

 

[Nice Nofret]

Why aren't they married? Gustav needs a child as an heir, doesn't he?

They are not married because Carina is not 'Standesgemäss' his equal. If he marries unequal he will lose being head of his house immediately .. with that, he would also lose a large part of his property, which is tight to the head of the house.

 

[Artemisia]

Carina Axelsson is a pretty woman. I don't know her and Pr. Gustav so much. Why aren't they married? Gustav needs a child as an heir, doesn't he?

They aren't married because of a will that states that in order to retain his position, Gustav needs to marry a noblewoman of Aryan blood. Carina is neither a noblewoman, nor of Aryan blood so if they marry, Prince Gustav will effectively forfeit his position. Contrary to popular belief, the will doesn't actually forbid Gustav to marry whoever he wishes; it merely stipulates that should such a marriage be against the terms of the will, Gustav will have to surrender his hereditary rights.

The couple have been working to nullify the will for years now, without much success. German law very specifically states that a person in sound mind is entitled to leave his estate to anyone and under any conditions he wishes. They might succeed in annulling the Aryan bit but hardly the noblewoman clause.

This said, there is are actually two loopholes that would allow Gustav and Carina to marry without violating the will's conditions, and/or for their potential children to have inheritance rights.

- If Gustav fathers children (in our out of wedlock), he can acknowledge and adopt them, whereby the eldest son will be his Heir (as per provisions of German Law).
- Carina and Gustav can also marry in a Church wedding without subsequent civil union. In that case, the will's conditions will again not be violated, Carina can be styled as Princess Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, and their children will be legitimate will full inheritance rights.

If he will die without a child, who will inherite Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg?

If Prince Gustav has no legitimate heirs, the next person in the line to meet all the requirements of the will is, I believe, the first-born son of Prince Robin (Prince Gustav's uncle). The Wikipedia article is wrong in naming Prince Robin himself as the heir because his second marriage was morganatic, thus disqualifying him from family inheritance. His first marriage was, however, to a noblewoman so the son from that marriage should be eligible to have full inheritance rights (provided he doesn't marry a non-Aryan and non-noblewoman himself).

 

[Biri]

What does "Aryan blood" mean? Sorry, but IMHO it smells of hitlerism.

 

[Charlotte_Aster]

However, Artemisia, as discussed before, they can have a Vhurvh wedding with a civil one, but it won't be recognized by state. Thus I'm not so sure whether she would legally be allowed to carry the surname Prinzessin zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg.

Biri, it does belong to a Nazi ideology. It means of "the pure race" or "master race", as they called it. Aryan people according to the Nazi ideology are/were "Nordic/Germanic people", who are not mixed with other "lesser races". Since Frau Axelsson's mother is of Mexican descent, she doesn't count as "Aryan".

 

[Artemisia]

What does "Aryan blood" mean? Sorry, but IMHO it smells of hitlerism.

The "Aryan blood" clause was added at the height of World War II and Gustav Albrecht, 5th Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg was himself a German officer who died in action in 1944. For the time, it made perfect sense for a prominent German officer to insist on "purity of blood" clause.

 

[Lee-Z]

That testament story is fascinating; does this mean that all the heirs in the next centuries to come will still have to comply to that will that was drawn up in the 1940's?
Or will this only last for a specific nr of generations?

And maybe a really silly question, but what would happen if the current head of the family made a will that stipulated the exact opposit and no heir could comply with both wills at the same time...?

 

[Artemisia]

That testament story is fascinating; does this mean that all the heirs in the next centuries to come will still have to comply to that will that was drawn up in the 1940's?
Or will this only last for a specific nr of generations?

And maybe a really silly question, but what would happen if the current head of the family made a will that stipulated the exact opposit and no heir could comply with both wills at the same time...?

Gustav Albrecht, 5th Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg wrote the will specifically naming his future grandson as his heir bypassing Prince Richard; thus, as far as I understand, the terms of the will should apply to Prince Gustav only. The will notwithstanding, there are also House Laws which are pretty strict on their own, especially in regards to morganatic marriages.

I am not entirely certain on this, however.

 

[Lee-Z]

Gustav Albrecht, 5th Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg wrote the will specifically naming his future grandson as his heir bypassing Prince Richard; thus, as far as I understand, the terms of the will should apply to Prince Gustav only. The will notwithstanding, there are also House Laws which are pretty strict on their own, especially in regards to morganatic marriages.

I am not entirely certain on this, however.

Ah okay, so whereas probably all heirs have to comply with the House Laws (which probably requires a marriage to a noble woman at the very least), until Prince Gustav has to comply with the arian (and protestant) clause...
And his father Richard is the current head of the family, but not the heir of Gustav Albrecht, as he was bypassed in the will (probably to avoid huge succession payments?)...?

That's a fine mess this Gustav Albrecht has left (excusez le mot)

 

[Artemisia]

Ah okay, so whereas probably all heirs have to comply with the House Laws (which probably requires a marriage to a noble woman at the very least), until Prince Gustav has to comply with the arian (and protestant) clause...
And his father Richard is the current head of the family, but not the heir of Gustav Albrecht, as he was bypassed in the will (probably to avoid huge succession payments?)...?

That's a fine mess this Gustav Albrecht has left (excusez le mot)

Again, I must point out that I'm not entirely certain the conditions of the will apply to Prince Gustav only. The reason I believe that to be the case is because, as far as I know German law, you cannot make any pre-conditions beyond one unborn generation (which, in Gustav Albrecht's case, meant children of his children).

As for the motives behind Gustav Albrecht's will, they might not be as straightforward as it may seem. The "Aryan" clause was perhaps not as much because of the Prince's Nazi sympathies (if they existed) but because at the time many non-Aryans and their descendants lost their properties; Gustav Albrecht had no way of knowing how long the Third Reich would last so he might have just been trying to protect the family fortune by ensuring his heir (grandson) marries an "acceptable" woman.

The decision to bypass his own son is slightly more difficult to explain; at the time of Gustav Albrecht's death, Prince Richard was not yet six years old and his younger brother - just a toddler. Gustav Albrecht might have tried to avoid inheritance taxes by ensuring the fortune is inherited "intact" by his grandson. There might have been other relevant, war-related reasons we cannot really understand now.

I must also note that the situation of bypassing an heir or of setting conditions for the marriages of future heirs is not unique to this family. Karl Friedrich III of Oettingen-Wallerstein named his grandson as his heir, bypassing his own son, Prince Moritz (although as soon as the said grandson came of age, he gave the control of the family fortune to his father). On the background issue, the Leiningen Family Edict of 1897 similarly states that members of the family can only marry representatives of aristocracy. Just years ago, the German High Court made a ruling in favour of the edict, stating that it was basically up to the owner of an estate to stipulate who or how can inherit it (Karl-Emich von Leiningen, the eldest son of the 7th Prince Leiningen, had to renounce his rights to marry his second non-noblewoman wife, and was contesting the edict). A similar ruling was made in the Hohenzollern case.

 

[Nice Nofret]

I'm quite sure that by house-laws adopted children have NOT the right to inherit - so they could only inherit their part of the personal fortune, but not anything of the estate belonging to the head of house... and never become head of house

 

[Artemisia]

I'm quite sure that by house-laws adopted children have NOT the right to inherit - so they could only inherit their part of the personal fortune, but not anything of the estate belonging to the head of house... and never become head of house

By German law, if Gustav has a child out of wedlock and then proceeds to legally adopt him, the baby would become an Heir to the Berleburg estate.
There is no clause in Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg House Law (that I know of) that prohibits such children from inheriting.

 

[crm2317]

By German law, if Gustav has a child out of wedlock and then proceeds to legally adopt him, the baby would become an Heir to the Berleburg estate.

Is this something you could imagine Gustav doing?

 

[Artemisia]

Why not? Gustav and Carina's struggle to overthrow the will can take years and may ultimately fail.
If they want to have a child together, they can do so now, with Gustav adopting the baby as his heir.

Carina is 44 already so they should really start thinking about the scenario (assuming they want to have children, of course).

 

[Nice Nofret]

Why not? Gustav and Carina's struggle to overthrow the will can take years and may ultimately fail.
If they want to have a child together, they can do so now, with Gustav adopting the baby as his heir.

.

If that would be a possibility - they would have done it already, that I'm sure of.

The stipulation is: children born in legal wedlock according to houselaw .. there is no room for adoption.

 

[Artemisia]

If that would be a possibility - they would have done it already, that I'm sure of.

The will may contain clauses we are not aware of (it was never made public) but with the information we do know, such a scenario is very much possible both under German law and Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg House Law. Why they chose not to do so is another question. Or, alternatively, Gustav Albrecht's will contains provisions which somehow prohibit that without breaking German law.

 

[EIIR]

I'm flabbergasted that such a will is not struck down by either the German courts or the European Court of Human Rights. It's a fundamentally racist, discriminatory and inequitable 'house law'. Does this mean that if a German makes a will stating that their estate be divided between their children, except if one of them marries a black person, it would be lawful?

I've forgotten most of my law degree, but I believe that in UK such a will would be nullified. It used to be the case that people would leave wills which stated that all the beneficiaries must be solicitors or whatever, but the British courts would reject such a will as inequitable. I'm astonished that Germany doesn't take the same view.

 

[Artemisia]

I'm flabbergasted that such a will is not struck down by either the German courts or the European Court of Human Rights. It's a fundamentally racist, discriminatory and inequitable 'house law'. Does this mean that if a German makes a will stating that their estate be divided between their children, except if one of them marries a black person, it would be lawful?

I've forgotten most of my law degree, but I believe that in UK such a will would be nullified. It used to be the case that people would leave wills which stated that all the beneficiaries must be solicitors or whatever, but the British courts would reject such a will as inequitable. I'm astonished that Germany doesn't take the same view.

Different countries have different laws. In France, children and spouse are automatically entitled to certain portions of an estate. In Germany, the owner of an estate has the right to oversee it in any way he/she wishes to. If a person wrote a will leaving his entire fortune to his dog, bypassing his 15 children and wife, it would be perfectly legal (providing he was in sound mind, of course). Basically, in Germany the legal opinion is that a persona is the absolute and undisputed owner of his fortune and how he distributes it or who he names as his heir is entirely up to him.

The Aryan clause is the only one that has high chances of being nullified because it may be argued that it's racist and discriminatory and was just a necessary clause for the time to ensure the inheritance remains intact (as I mentioned earlier, many non-Aryans had their properties confiscated). The requirement to marry a woman of noble origin * though is unlikely to be uplifted; by German laws, the late Prince was at right to specify who can inherit his estate and under what circumstances (German law's take on this is clear from the Leiningen and Hohenzollern cases). After all, Gustav Albrecht didn't forbid his grandson to marry Carina - Gustav can do that at any time. It's just that if he does, he will lose the inheritance that his grandfather left him under certain conditions.


* Just to clarify, by "noble" it is meant a woman who comes from nobility in several generations. So, even if Queen Margrethe wanted to help her nephew's case by ennobling Carina, it wouldn't help.