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  #101  
Old 04-24-2010, 02:19 PM
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The newspapers are reporting (EB & BB's articles, linked in this thread) that Gustav's girlfriend was informed at some time before, during, or after the Thursday gala event. So if there is a hue and cry that she must be given all consideration for attending this gala in spite of the news/because she didn't know the news/because her sister had only been married a year (has the individual who declared this verified that fact?) and that doesn't deserve a mourning by anyone, then I'm willing to say....glad she enjoyed her gown and tiara.

But any events after that? Nope. Sorry. She'd made her appearance, hit the marks on the carpet, gotten the pictures that were needed to record her presence, and if you'd like to call it that, "honored" the Queen.

Beyond that? Beyond Thursday? What did she attend? And why? Seriously, why? Because she was there, because she had the clothes, because her sister's second widowhood was undeserving of a cessation in a party for her boyfriend's aunt, what?

We're not exactly speaking of Crown Princess Mary's presence or absence, or even Princess Marie's. The Queen's nephew's paramour's presence neither made nor broke that party, in my opinion. (The absence of genuine Royal The Prince Phillip didn't make or break it, and I'd consider him to be not only of considerably higher rank but someone that I'd actually enjoy having at a party like this!)

If it is that her presence at the gala was due to her not knowing (facts not in evidence, but OK,) then I'm delighted that she was able to attend, enjoy good company: good spirits: good people: good wardrobe. But after that? My opinion remains unchanged: tasteless and disrespectful, not just to her sister, but to her hostess The Queen.

Again, it's about the choices that this couple makes and continues to make. In this instance, it was her choice to attend, to continue to attend events even after knowing of this tragedy and its aftermath. Perhaps it was felt that, since the sister had a marriage of short duration was hardly worth grieving over, as a previous posting party stated was their own opinion about, and because a Queen's birthday comes so rarely (only once a year,) that a choice of attending one event was infinitely preferable to respecting a loss by declining futher invitations. I mean, after all, this wasn't the first time her sister had lost a husband, right?

I can give the benefit of the doubt for the one event. After that - and considering that even the newspapers knew of it, let along a Royal board a continent away - well....
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  #102  
Old 04-24-2010, 02:35 PM
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What is the line between judgment and opinion, Zonk? I'm asking because I respect you and because I really want to know how you view that.

We can only know what we can know, and information that is not part of public record (such as birth, marriage, death records, data maintained by governing bodies, etc.) is subject to interpretation. Here in this thread, we've seen lots of sources provided but they are all second hand and filtered. (BB has a history of pretty much publishing press releases, for instance.)

Unless The Royal Forums is trending toward a strict reporting of fact alone without the participants being allowed to express opinions on them, then it's like being at....work....for me. (where everything has to be footnoted and sourced.)

Are we trending to a "Countess LargeyDoodles wore a dress on Friday" without being able to say "it was a cream colored dress...." because it could have been cream or white or actually beige?

Are we trending to "Count PartlyPants got married on the 19th" without being able to discuss "why in God's name did a guy with a pasty white complexion wear shiny silver spangles?" because "pasty" is a judgement?

People here have the opinion that partying after you've heard about a death in the family is in poor taste at best. Others here seem to applaud it. Vive la différence? or "you can't say that because it's judgmental?"
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  #103  
Old 04-24-2010, 02:55 PM
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Its a fine line honestly. Everyone is going to have their own opinion on what the two are.

Opinion to me is I don't like Carina because of X and Y. That is your opinion and someone might point out the errors of X and Y and you still hold that opinion. Someone once asked me their opinion of a singer and I said I did't like her...they said why...and I said you know...once I hit 40 I came of the opinion that I didn't have to have a specific reason I just don't like her. Personally if someone came out and said that didn't like Carina (or Mary, Maxima, Letizia, Camilla, etc.) because they just didn't, I would say okay. And it would be okay to me becase no matter what I say in her defence.....I really don't think their opinion will change?

To me Judgement is making a decision on facts. But what if the facts are skewed? What if someone presents certain facts that a certain to give a certain judgement in either a negative or positive way?

I don't think its fair to compare your examples because the color of a dress (can be viewed by someone who doesn't have a color monitor, is color blind, etc.). Let's face it...we here at the TRF are always making opinions, statement and judgements without knowing all the facts. The Royal families around the world are going to tell us the basics and not the personal pertinent information that we (as royal watchers) are dying to know.

Here is my take on Carina....and I will admit I dont' follow her as frequently as I follow other royals.

Based on the pictures and facts alone, yes it does look shady that her sister's husband died and a couple of hours later she was smiling for the cameras at a banquet half way around the world.

But here's a couple of things I dont know. I don't know if she spoke to her sister before the tragedy (heck if she speaks to her sister on a regular). For all we know...she speaks to her sister everyday since the tragedy and her sister told her to just come to the funeral. And she might have an extended stay with her family following the funeral. Within the last year I recently loss one of my sisters (who was 38) to an unexpected death, yet even with that in mind, another one of my sisters and I aren't speaking over something that is totally STUPID. I am woman enough to admit its dumb and she is woman enough to admit that is stupid, but we wont' admit it to each other :) yet I do know that if my sister called me because of a unexpected illness and/or death, I would drop every thing in a second and be at her side. And I know she would do the same for me. But I don't know Carina or her relationship with her sister.

I do know if she shuns her family events because she likes the glitz and glamour of Gusav's life than she is pretty shallow and I don't have time for people like that. But if Gustav knows that and accepts that from her, who am I to judge? He knows what he has...he also knows that if the money, the castle and the title are gone if she is that shallow she could be gone tomorrow...but that is a chance he takes.

I said what I said about the inheirtance because I think the Aryan requirement frankly, is just shady, and I would say that it is shady no matter who is fighting it. Regardless of money, title, etc.
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  #104  
Old 04-25-2010, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Its a fine line honestly. Everyone is going to have their own opinion on what the two are.

Opinion to me is I don't like Carina because of X and Y. That is your opinion and someone might point out the errors of X and Y and you still hold that opinion. Someone once asked me their opinion of a singer and I said I did't like her...they said why...and I said you know...once I hit 40 I came of the opinion that I didn't have to have a specific reason I just don't like her. Personally if someone came out and said that didn't like Carina (or Mary, Maxima, Letizia, Camilla, etc.) because they just didn't, I would say okay. And it would be okay to me becase no matter what I say in her defence.....I really don't think their opinion will change?

To me Judgement is making a decision on facts. But what if the facts are skewed? What if someone presents certain facts that a certain to give a certain judgement in either a negative or positive way?

I don't think its fair to compare your examples because the color of a dress (can be viewed by someone who doesn't have a color monitor, is color blind, etc.). Let's face it...we here at the TRF are always making opinions, statement and judgements without knowing all the facts. The Royal families around the world are going to tell us the basics and not the personal pertinent information that we (as royal watchers) are dying to know.

Here is my take on Carina....and I will admit I dont' follow her as frequently as I follow other royals.

Based on the pictures and facts alone, yes it does look shady that her sister's husband died and a couple of hours later she was smiling for the cameras at a banquet half way around the world.

But here's a couple of things I dont know. I don't know if she spoke to her sister before the tragedy (heck if she speaks to her sister on a regular). For all we know...she speaks to her sister everyday since the tragedy and her sister told her to just come to the funeral. And she might have an extended stay with her family following the funeral. Within the last year I recently loss one of my sisters (who was 38) to an unexpected death, yet even with that in mind, another one of my sisters and I aren't speaking over something that is totally STUPID. I am woman enough to admit its dumb and she is woman enough to admit that is stupid, but we wont' admit it to each other :) yet I do know that if my sister called me because of a unexpected illness and/or death, I would drop every thing in a second and be at her side. And I know she would do the same for me. But I don't know Carina or her relationship with her sister.

I do know if she shuns her family events because she likes the glitz and glamour of Gusav's life than she is pretty shallow and I don't have time for people like that. ... (remainder snipped.)
OK. I'll buy that.

1. I'm really, really, really sorry for the loss of your sister. I can say with complete honesty that having two sisters means knowing that someone will always have your back, and that occasionally, something very small can cause a rift. But the best part about having a sister is knowing that the rift will mend.

2. Yeah, I know what you mean about being there when your sister needs you. My sister's husband died very suddenly, of complications of diabetes when she was 40 and he was 38; they had a (then) 10 year old son. It was dead of winter, I was in the upper Midwest, I was chief credit officer of a major US bank and also in a full-time MBA program. AND - my sister and I had been not communicating due to an issue about our parents. So yes, I do know what I would have done in Gustav's girlfriend's situation because I did something similar in my own sister's situation. My best friend came over and went through my Dayplanner and phoned everyone that I had appointments with or coursework with for the next two weeks to cancel while I packed and took a fairly complicated set of trains, planes and automobiles to get back to Virginia in the teeth of a winter storm. I would have crawled over broken glass through fire if my sister needed me. Even if she didn't say she needed me, I still would have shown up.

The funeral was yesterday in San Jose, by the way.
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  #105  
Old 04-25-2010, 02:55 PM
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I totally agree with NotAPretender on the matter of the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleberg will. I won't rehearse the points, but the situation in the family has been clear since the will was written - and, looked at from the perspective of the War years, and the social climate then, it can be understood. I can't be too sorry for Pr Gustav or Carina, whose life is pretty good, and still would be if they married.

On the death of her (supposed) brother-in-law, I am not quite so ready to censor her. Firstly, we don't know how close she was to her sister. I know many people who, perhaps unfortunately, lose contact with family members that they are not close to. And this was a new brother-in-law that she had perhaps hardly met. It is not like the case of Pss Letizia of the Asturias, who lost a very dear sister to suicide. I wouldn't like to condemn Carina without knowing a lot more about the situation. As an aside, perhaps her sister felt the additional media coverage that her sister turning up would bring was just too much at that sad and scarey time. (Why, for heaven's sake was her husband killed by his step-father?) Other people's lives can be very different to our own. I would go to the other end of the world to help my only sister (well, she lives in Australia!), but my husband was not even informed of the death of his uncle (his late mother's dear sister's husband) until after the funeral by his aunt and cousins!! This was because they thought it was too far for him to travel and they didn't need him there because they knew that he loved and respected his uncle anyway. The fact that they totally misjudged my husband and my feelings (we would willingly have made a 500 mile journey with 2 young children), is not the point, I suppose. They thought they were doing the the right thing by us!
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  #106  
Old 04-26-2010, 01:06 PM
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From what I gather on the above posts, Carina never did fly to California ??? Planes are flying now!
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  #107  
Old 04-26-2010, 01:11 PM
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From what I gather on the above posts, Carina never did fly to California ??? Planes are flying now!
She may have flown, she may not have.
I don't think the Danish press concentrate on her flying activities.
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  #108  
Old 04-26-2010, 02:00 PM
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She may have flown, she may not have.
I don't think the Danish press concentrate on her flying activities.
Well, since they've covered the story of her family tragedy, it would make sense for them to cover whether or not she flew to California to the funeral. It is part of the story, and I'm sure that many of the readers of the various publications in Denmark, Sweden, and Germany (the ones that have featured this story) would like to know.
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  #109  
Old 04-29-2010, 02:19 PM
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Summary of article in Billed Bladet #17, 2010.
Carina I sorg – Carina in mourning.
Written by John Lautrup.

Carina Axelsson was unable to get to her sister, Lislott Jones, who recently lost her husband.
Gustav Grüner, Princess Benedikte’s private secretary said: “Carina Axelsson is very sad but do not wish to make a statement. She considers the matter as being a completely private matter, which does not involve the DRF”.
He adds that Carina would have flown to USA had the ash cloud not prevented her.

Her brother-in-law (svoger), Richard Jones was murdered by his stepfather. The reason seems to be economic controversy.
Liselott Jones lost her first husband four years ago. He committed suicide. She has three girls aged eight months to five years.
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  #110  
Old 04-29-2010, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Summary of article in Billed Bladet #17, 2010.
Carina I sorg – Carina in mourning.
Written by John Lautrup.

Carina Axelsson was unable to get to her sister, Lislott Jones, who recently lost her husband.
Gustav Grüner, Princess Benedikte’s private secretary said: “Carina Axelsson is very sad but do not wish to make a statement. She considers the matter as being a completely private matter, which does not involve the DRF”.
He adds that Carina would have flown to USA had the ash cloud not prevented her.

Her brother-in-law (svoger), Richard Jones was murdered by his stepfather. The reason seems to be economic controversy.
Liselott Jones lost her first husband four years ago. He committed suicide. She has three girls aged eight months to five years.




Okay, apparently enough people questioned her actions that Princess Benedikte's private secretary had to make a statement.

Well, any statement will do I guess....
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  #111  
Old 04-29-2010, 11:34 PM
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Well, since they've covered the story of her family tragedy, it would make sense for them to cover whether or not she flew to California to the funeral. It is part of the story, and I'm sure that many of the readers of the various publications in Denmark, Sweden, and Germany (the ones that have featured this story) would like to know.
Most readers would consider this her very private matter and would get no satisfaction of the discussions whether she travelled to her sister or not.
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  #112  
Old 04-30-2010, 10:48 AM
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Carina has been invited with Prince Gustav to the Swedish wedding of Princess Victoria in June.
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  #113  
Old 04-30-2010, 11:44 AM
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Most readers would consider this her very private matter and would get no satisfaction of the discussions whether she travelled to her sister or not.
Yes I know; and I am one of those readers. I am shocked that this was allowed to be discussed without verification or statement of where the sources came from. My post was tongue-in-cheek. I hope that those publications that wrote about this story really verified their sources (and didn't just get them from reading message boards). They are private citizens who are simply trying to deal with a tragedy. It shouldn't have been publicized, IMO.
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  #114  
Old 04-30-2010, 01:56 PM
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It was interesting reading the Swedish papers' accounts of the non-travel of Gustav's girlfriend to the States. For the very first time, they did not refer to her as Swedish or of Swedish ancestry, but instead emphasized her US or Mexican heritage.

As to whether or not they verified the information (meaning the DRF and/or the newspapers,) it depends on whether they got their information from public records (like birth/death records, etc.) or consulted with her press agent. The press agent, as a paid spinner of "fact," has a vested interest in glossiness.
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  #115  
Old 06-08-2010, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ayvee View Post
Billed-Bladet has now written about this incident:
Billed-Bladet - Chok i kongehuset: Carina Axelssons svoger myrdet

Translated articles from Denmark and Sweden

http://translate.google.com/translat...rdet%26hl%3Den

Google Translate

http://translate.google.com/translat...rdad%26hl%3Den

Google Translate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Summary of article in Billed Bladet #17, 2010.
Carina I sorg – Carina in mourning.
Written by John Lautrup.

Carina Axelsson was unable to get to her sister, Lislott Jones, who recently lost her husband.
Gustav Grüner, Princess Benedikte’s private secretary said: “Carina Axelsson is very sad but do not wish to make a statement. She considers the matter as being a completely private matter, which does not involve the DRF”.
He adds that Carina would have flown to USA had the ash cloud not prevented her.

Her brother-in-law (svoger), Richard Jones was murdered by his stepfather. The reason seems to be economic controversy.
Liselott Jones lost her first husband four years ago. He committed suicide. She has three girls aged eight months to five years.
http://translate.google.com/translat...trup%26hl%3Den
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  #116  
Old 07-03-2010, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post
He's the only person it affects, Zonk. His children or any other heirs beyond the direct heir to the grandfather are unaffected. And since it's property, the courts have found (in other similar cases) that such wills can be upheld unless they contravene human rights.
Hi, NotAPretender. I'm insufferably wordy so this may get a little long, please bear with me.

I had not looked at this thread until today. Initially while reading the post (and I read them ALL before this posting), I was ready to question the "axe you had to grind" with Gustav and/or Carina just as other posters and moderators had done. LOL...to be honest, I thought you sounded like some psychotic person hell-bent on screaming them into a bloody pulp!

After your exchange with Zonk (I'm completely in agreement with you on the opinion/judgment discussion) [BTW, hi Zonk] and reading about the loss you experienced and all you had to handle to get to your sister in Virginia, I understand at least the ferocity (is that a word?) behind your opinions of them. I also express my sympathies for your sister's loss.

Before my question, please let me make it clear...I don't know anything, haven't researched anything about dates, travel, call times, relationships, etc. I could not care less about Carina, Gustav, the Nazi grandfather, any of their money, the drooling cousins, who has a hard time having a baby, who lied about their age, I just don't care. I have no way of knowing if any travel has happened nor am I inclined to research it. What I do know is that, like yourself, if faced with the situation Carina was in, at the very least she should have excused herself from the events after the first day. If Carina and her sister were completely estranged, it would be a different story...but according to the links posted here, she portrayed herself as having a sister and a relationship with her. So attendance at events at the very least was in poor taste. The circumstances of her brother-in-law's death (even if she NEVER met him) are tragic, and even from halfway around the world, discreet mourning would not dishonor QMII and would be support for her sister in the USA. That is my opinion.

Okay, that being said...and removing all of that from the equation, you seem very well-versed in the logistics of the will, hence my quote above of your previous post about Gustav being the only one affected by this.

HERE IS MY QUESTION (FINALLY!):

If I were Carina in this situation, would it be possible for me to sue/contest the will? I ask because it seems that if Gustav "chose" to be in love with Carina, and she "chose" to be in love with him, then she would also be affected by the stipulations of the will and is being discriminated against for several reasons - one she could change, two she could not. Seeing as the two she cannot deal with a racist requirement (Aryan) in a country that has outlawed racism, and a caste requirement (Noble) in a country that no longer recognizes royal and noble titles...could she challenge that the grandfather, without even knowing her, is violating her human rights on those grounds?

It seems like all of these challenges to these wills have come from the heirs and I am just wondering if one of the "normal" people could bring such claims.

Thank you in advance for any information. (Don't "chase" the money, "make" the money.)

Rascal
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  #117  
Old 07-09-2010, 10:34 PM
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Howdy Rascal!

Carina has no standing to contest the will.

To forbid a marriage between the two would, in fact, violate their human rights. A marriage has not been forbidden - they can marry. Let me repeat: they can marry. End of story.

The Berleberg family has enjoyed an immensely wealthy lifestyle by virtue of this will; given Grandpop's support of the Nazi regime, one could argue that reasonably speaking, they deserved to have been stripped of every deutschmark. The will, legally enforceable, saved them from a life of not being wealthy. To dispute it now, and to clothe themselves in the false garments of right and human rights, is beyond insulting to the intelligence.

Gustav's girlfriend has earned a living before and can earn a living after the tiara.

They can marry. They want to marry and be wealthy under terms of a will that they violate, after first richly and lengthily enjoying its benefits.

They don't seem too disturbed by it all, now, though.

I'm heartened by the fact that the next heir after Gustav carries no such baggage, is gainfully employed as well as successfully managing his own considerable heritage and estates, has married a college educated woman of great professional standing, has a legitimate heir, follows his (Protestant) faith with simple honor and heartfelt devotion, and understands that one cannot talk out of both sides of the mouth.

Welcome. You're a good writer. Have a good pull at the first part of this little thread and you will understand a lot. PM me for more background - my work takes me into a strange little world of arcania with regard to such matters. And people think financial reporting is boring!
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  #118  
Old 08-29-2010, 02:07 PM
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Carina made an appearance at the Greek Royal wedding this weekend.
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  #119  
Old 08-31-2010, 01:38 AM
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Any updates with news of the will. For goodness' sake it's been 60 years since wwII! What is taking the courts so long to discard it! It's the 21st century,

Quote:
Originally Posted by royalsmartie View Post
I ask the same question and I thin its because they won't let them get married and he's senting a message to the world that she still his princess
I guess if you own one or have access to one, you can still wear one. Look at Elizabeth Taylor. Mike Todd bought her one and she's worn it. Salma Hayek and Scarlett Johansson have both worn tiaras to the oscars.
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Old 10-16-2010, 12:26 AM
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Gustav and Carina do have the choice to marry right now but they want to fight the will they are trying to get all three things at once and there are:1.Money.2.title 3.property. I hope something good comes out of this it's their decision let's see what the come out is going to be.
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