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  #21  
Old 04-16-2010, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Guido View Post
This is not a too good PR strategic. Tatiana Blatnik didn't wear tiaras before her official engagement.
It doesn't matter they will never get married his grandfather will won't let him not with out giving up his money and all but they might before he dies no offense.So she might as well go for it.
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Old 04-16-2010, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Guido View Post
This is not a too good PR strategic. Tatiana Blatnik didn't wear tiaras before her official engagement.
But Tatiana can marry her Prince.
Carina cannot marry hers.
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Old 04-18-2010, 07:26 PM
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But Tatiana can marry her Prince.
Carina cannot marry hers.
Yes she can. She can 100% absolutely marry Gustav. Tonight, tomorrow, next week.

They can marry any time they wish. They prefer to shack up and play house.

A tiara is a piece of jewelry, period. If Gustav's parents think it provident to let her play with the jewels, then it's up to them. I mean, I'm sure that the jewels are well insured, just as I'm sure that every piece of real estate is carefully locked up so that it is not squandered. I think that the will itself is proof positive that this family is determined to hang on to its wealth.

I think the far, far greater sin here is that Gustav has two sisters who have no inheritance rights. Gustav has a 100% choice in who he can marry. His sisters had no rights in choosing their sex at birth. Because they are female, they lose out. If anyone has a gripe, it should be their gripe.

The next heir in line for this little branch has married equally, to someone who has a gainful and independent career; they have a legitimate son. The next heir genuinely believes in the Protestant faith that the grandfather's will provides as a requirement, and in fact very active in it; he has offered his own family schloss as an international conference site. Things will be fine in that family in the next generations.

So they don't get married - so what? This really isn't a tragedy in the least. They have money, they have a nice place to live, she gets to wear pretty clothes and they both get trotted out in front of cameras for "family" events. It really doesn't seem to be all that dreadful of a situation. In fact, it seems rather nice to have all that and very little to have to do to earn it; they have no public responsibilities (unlike Royal families with full calendars) and whatever they choose to do, like open the hunt breakfast, is purely by choice. (The only obligation that Gustav had was to marry in accordance with his grandfather's will, and he seems to be a failure in that.)

And - they can always get married. Yes, they can. Sure, he'd have to, you know, work for a living and all; but there are a lot of princes who do and it doesn't seem to have done them too very much harm. I also wish to point out that Gustav's father is still alive, still reigning Prince, and one of the 400 wealthiest individuals in Germany. I doubt that if they married, that Gustav would in reality have to work; I'm certain his father is in a position to provide a jointure to provide for them amply if not splendidly. There are several subsidiary properties owned by the family that would provide housing far in excess of what the majority of the human race - or even the posters here - have over their heads.

Gustav's girlfriend is by and large a creation of her press agent, and if one takes a careful look at, for instance, the arc of pictures released over a two year period of time from one Royal interaction, that press agent earns his pennies. This whole "tragedy" of not being able to Marry the Prince seems to me to be overly-turgid.

Because - and I'll say it again - Gustav and she can marry at their convenience and leisure.
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  #24  
Old 04-18-2010, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post
Yes she can. She can 100% absolutely marry Gustav. Tonight, tomorrow, next week.

They can marry any time they wish. They prefer to shack up and play house.

A tiara is a piece of jewelry, period. If Gustav's parents think it provident to let her play with the jewels, then it's up to them. I mean, I'm sure that the jewels are well insured, just as I'm sure that every piece of real estate is carefully locked up so that it is not squandered. I think that the will itself is proof positive that this family is determined to hang on to its wealth.

I think the far, far greater sin here is that Gustav has two sisters who have no inheritance rights. Gustav has a 100% choice in who he can marry. His sisters had no rights in choosing their sex at birth. Because they are female, they lose out. If anyone has a gripe, it should be their gripe.

The next heir in line for this little branch has married equally, to someone who has a gainful and independent career; they have a legitimate son. The next heir genuinely believes in the Protestant faith that the grandfather's will provides as a requirement, and in fact very active in it; he has offered his own family schloss as an international conference site. Things will be fine in that family in the next generations.

So they don't get married - so what? This really isn't a tragedy in the least. They have money, they have a nice place to live, she gets to wear pretty clothes and they both get trotted out in front of cameras for "family" events. It really doesn't seem to be all that dreadful of a situation. In fact, it seems rather nice to have all that and very little to have to do to earn it; they have no public responsibilities (unlike Royal families with full calendars) and whatever they choose to do, like open the hunt breakfast, is purely by choice. (The only obligation that Gustav had was to marry in accordance with his grandfather's will, and he seems to be a failure in that.)

And - they can always get married. Yes, they can. Sure, he'd have to, you know, work for a living and all; but there are a lot of princes who do and it doesn't seem to have done them too very much harm. I also wish to point out that Gustav's father is still alive, still reigning Prince, and one of the 400 wealthiest individuals in Germany. I doubt that if they married, that Gustav would in reality have to work; I'm certain his father is in a position to provide a jointure to provide for them amply if not splendidly. There are several subsidiary properties owned by the family that would provide housing far in excess of what the majority of the human race - or even the posters here - have over their heads.

Gustav's girlfriend is by and large a creation of her press agent, and if one takes a careful look at, for instance, the arc of pictures released over a two year period of time from one Royal interaction, that press agent earns his pennies. This whole "tragedy" of not being able to Marry the Prince seems to me to be overly-turgid.

Because - and I'll say it again - Gustav and she can marry at their convenience and leisure.
y should he not be able to carry on the famliy name because she not a princess? Thats not fair he's fighting for their rights.His grandfather was a little unfair if you ask me.
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  #25  
Old 04-18-2010, 09:01 PM
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y should he not be able to carry on the famliy name because she not a princess? Thats not fair he's fighting for their rights.His grandfather was a little unfair if you ask me.
This has been very thoroughly discussed elsewhere, in Part 1 of this thread. Having said that, not a single one of us here has actually seen the will of the grandfather, so the only thing we know is what has been published...usually via press releases from her press agent, carefully sent to sympathetic pink-press journalists.

It has nothing to do with whether she was born a princess. Gustav's grandfather set up the will with very specific requirements, including (among other items) Protestant faith and noble birth for any bride. "Noble birth" is defined as four generations.

He's not "fighting for their rights." He's fighting for money.

She and Gustav have the right, the 100% right, to marry and to have children. The children would have his name - they would be Berlebergs.

Make no mistake, this isn't some misty-eyed thwarting of pulsing romance; it's not some paperback novel of a goodhearted but poor girl and the master of the manor. Their decision not to marry is their decision alone, and it's based on cold hard cash considerations.

----------

The tiara issue is a non-issue. As I see from the pictures on the appropriate thread, CP Mary of Denmark at one event was not wearing a tiara, but her lady in waiting was! It's jewelry - heck, I even have one dating from the 1820's, a Hungarian piece from my family. And I'm neither Royalty nor aristocracy - although I did debut :-)
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  #26  
Old 04-18-2010, 09:10 PM
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Nice and informative post NotAPretender. Thank you for that.
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  #27  
Old 04-18-2010, 10:48 PM
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To reduce the question to an issue of cash is perhaps overly simplified. Gustav is the next heir in line to inherit the estate. If he does not marry according to the will he will loose the inheritance and it will go to his cousin bypassing his uncle, as the uncle did not marry according to the will either. What will happen if the cousin does not have an heir or does not marry "right"?
Sooner or later the question about the will must be settled; is the requirement regarding the spouse legal?
In worst case scenario the estate will be turned over every generation to another branch of he family simply because of whom they marry or not.

Simply not a practical solution. The estate (think of it as a large wholly owned corporation coupled with your home for generations back) is much more than cash. The cultural and emotional roots were planted generations ago and to simply pack up and move is not something anyone would do lightly. It is as if the Danish royal family would loose the right to the danish crown to Anne Marie's side of the family.

I think Gustav is doing the right thing even though it means he can not marry yet. The question must at some be point addressed and brought to the courts and he is doing it. The estate should stay with its rightful branch of the family.
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  #28  
Old 04-19-2010, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post
Because - and I'll say it again - Gustav and she can marry at their convenience and leisure.
Yes they can, but Gustav will loose not only "Cold hard Cash" but everything his family has worked for, for decades, if i'm correct.
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  #29  
Old 04-19-2010, 10:57 AM
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Sometimes there are issues that are larger than life. The impact goes far beyond one individuals lifestyle or family life. I don't believe Gustav has ever looked at this issue as only who he can or can not marry. He could have married "equal" but what about a possible first son of such a union. The issue of who the heir marries will impact every generation unless they can get that particular clause of the will changed.
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Old 04-19-2010, 11:40 AM
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I know little about the situation, so please excuse me if my question is stupid. I am sure it has been asked before. What will happen if Gustav never has any children? What if it is too late for him and Carina to have children together when the will is finally overturned? He will have a right to the inheritance but no heir of his own.
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  #31  
Old 04-19-2010, 12:12 PM
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Another tragedy in Axelsson family

VERY SAD NEWS:

Carina's brother-in-law Richard Michael Jones was killed in a shooting last Thursday 15 April 2010. 2 Dead In Santa Cruz Mountains Shooting. Carina's brother-in-law was one of the victim. This is the reason why Carina wore dark gown at theatre. She lost her 2nd brother-in-law, too. Her 1st brother-in-law also died tragically.

Articles and video.

Victims Identified In Summit Area Shooting - Central Coast News Story - KSBW The Central Coast


2 Dead In Santa Cruz Mountains Shooting - Central Coast News Story - KSBW The Central Coast


The Santa Cruz County Sheriff's Department has released the names of the victims in Thursdays double shooting in the Summit area of the Santa Cruz Mountains near Los Gatos.

Investigators said 67-year-old James Alexander Chimblis and 39-year-old Richard Michael Jones were both found dead at a home on Hutchinson Drive.
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  #32  
Old 04-19-2010, 12:46 PM
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Shouldn't Carina have been with her sister in California rather than at a fancy function in Denmark
Sounds very cold that she wasn't with her family
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  #33  
Old 04-19-2010, 12:55 PM
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I don't think she would have been able to fly because of the volcano.
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  #34  
Old 04-19-2010, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by lyndaW View Post
Shouldn't Carina have been with her sister in California rather than at a fancy function in Denmark
Sounds very cold that she wasn't with her family

The shooting happend just a few hours before the gala performence.
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  #35  
Old 04-19-2010, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna Z. View Post
I know little about the situation, so please excuse me if my question is stupid. I am sure it has been asked before. What will happen if Gustav never has any children? What if it is too late for him and Carina to have children together when the will is finally overturned? He will have a right to the inheritance but no heir of his own.
Carina is 41 now, so probably it is already late for them anyway.
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  #36  
Old 04-19-2010, 01:45 PM
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Carina is 41 now, so probably it is already late for them anyway.
I thought she was close to being 30; not 41. I know there's a wikipedia page on her listing her birthdate but is that accurate? I really thought she was younger than Princess Mary.

---------------------

Okay on this fashion article from NY Times, it mentions Carina Axelsson as being 22 in 1993:
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/21/ma...l?pagewanted=1
so not quite 41 but 39.

Excerpt from NY Times March 21, 1993:
Carina Axelsson is wearing a Jil Sander cropped ribbed sweater, a Tartan skirt from Complice and men's jeans by Gianni Versace. (pg. 48); Carina -- With a portfolio that already includes Italian Vogue, Spanish Vogue and Italian Glamour, Carina Axelsson, a 22-year-old Californian, is now taking Manhattan. Described by admirers as a shorter, thinner, more delicate Linda Evangelista, she calls herself "birdlike." (pg. 49)(Photographs by Manuela Pavesi for The New York Times)

----------------------------
After further research, yes she'll be 41 and was born in 1968. I didn't realize Prince Gustav gave an interview with BB on the occasion of Carina's 40th birthday in 2008. Her birthday being Aug. 5, 1968.
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Old 04-19-2010, 02:04 PM
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Thank you for the article but if I remember correctly, the birthday you can find on Wikipedia has been confirmed by Carina herself and, as Petra writes, she is indeed 41.
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  #38  
Old 04-19-2010, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by grevinnan View Post
Sometimes there are issues that are larger than life. The impact goes far beyond one individuals lifestyle or family life. I don't believe Gustav has ever looked at this issue as only who he can or can not marry. He could have married "equal" but what about a possible first son of such a union. The issue of who the heir marries will impact every generation unless they can get that particular clause of the will changed.
The grandfather's will, as Head of the House of Berleberg, applies only to this generation. Only to Gustav. And European courts have found in similar cases where the Head of the House has placed such restrictions, that these restrictions are fully enforceable, since they do not forbid marriage. They are not a human rights violation. All it says is that the wealth moves on.

The will skipped Gutsav's father Richard as Head of House, although he is the reigning Prince. This was a wealth preservation move, to minimize taxes. The "stuff" went to Prince Richard's son in accordance with the will from the early 1940's, when Prince Richard was still wearing knee breeches and his marriage to Benedickt (and obviously the birth of Gustav) was a good thirty-plus years away.

So the question of whether this goes on to the next generation is completely moot. Gustav (or whoever replaces Gustav in ownership position of the "stuff") will be the Head of the House and will be allowed to set up inheritance in accordance with their own wishes, wishes that will be as legally binding as the will prepared by the grandfather.

That doesn't mean that Gustav can decide what happens to the stuff now. He's already inherited the Headship of the House, and after his father's death, he becomes reigning Prince. But he is not in control of what happens to it after his death. He can't parcel it out and pass it like after-dinner mints during his life or his father's life, and he can't pass it on to his own children unless they are born of a marriage as stipulated in the will. If he dies without children and without marrying, the stuff goes to the next heir. If he marries within the stipulations of the will, then he gets to pass the stuff on to his heirs in accordance with his own will and desires. If he marries outside of the stipulations of the grandfather's will - under which he has enjoyed a supremely comfortable living and about which he and his family have known since birth - the stuff goes to his cousin (including both the title of Reigning Prince and the Headship of the House.) It could not have been laid out any plainer to Prince Richard, to Princess Benedikt, to Prince Gustav - and very sadly, to Princesses Alexandra and Nathalie. Sadly, because they are completely cut out only by virtue of something beyond their control.

The only question about these restrictions pertains to who is the inheritor under the grandfather's will. Right now, it is Gustav. If it's not Gustav because he marries in contravention of the will itself, then it is his cousin.

Simply stated, this will binds only the heirs of the grandfather in this generation - specifically Gustav or the next heir after him until one that follows the regulations has been found and the "stuff" has devolved onto that heir. As I have stated previously, that person already exists, already has wide experience in managing similar estates, has married in accordance with the will and - as a nice bonus - has an heir. That would be Bernhard, Prinz zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Hohenstein, who is the grandson of Richard 4th Fürst zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg. Richard 4th Fürst zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg is Gustav's great-grandfather, making Bernhard (strictly speaking) Gustav's first cousin once removed.

Other thoughts, in no particular order:

Whether the "stuff" should stay "in this branch" does not take into account the historic nature of the "splitting" of this branch. That split took place only at the level of the shared great-grandfather/grandfather. If Gustav marries his current lover, then the "stuff" goes to the junior branch of the family, and the Berleberg and Hohenstein branches are reunited. I actually think that is a wonderful outcome.

Gustav as "poor?" Heavens! He certainly looks healthy enough to get a job and work for a living. Not only that, but I think that a nice little jointure awaits him even if he turns his back on his inheritance. When I was working at an international bank in Manhattan, we had not one but two such princes working in the bank with very few qualifications except the ability to make introductions. They had very little in the way of money but had sumptuous salaries. I'm sure Gustav's connections wouldn't let him go a-beggin' in the streets, now, let's not be dramatic. Not only that, but the loss of his inheritance would be due wholly to his own choice and his alone. I mean, really, even the fabulously wealthy BRF has members in the third and fourth generations who work for a living, receive no public money, and actually live off their earnings. It's very possible, you know.

Anna, it's likely that the will won't be overturned. Similar court cases have not been. The Head of a House has the absolute right as to who may inherit the property that is his to distribute.

Since there seems to be an uprising about the "cold hard cash" thought, I'll step that up to a less simplistic wording and point out that the will, and Gustav's refusal to marry without getting the "stuff," is a continuation of wealth preservation. I had been trying to keep this as simple as possible because it seems that many are determined to believe that the grandfather's will forbids a marriage. It. Does. Not. It just means that Gustav must marry in accordance with the terms of the will - something that is 100% within his control! - or lose the "stuff." Gustav and his family have known the terms of the will for decades.

(I really don't know why letting go of the Harlequin romance aspect of this is so very hard. It's not like any of this was a surprise, or that this is Gustav's first little romance. He was engaged in accordance with the will before, for heaven's sake!)

--------------------------------

Guido's news is interesting. And it does indeed seem cold to me that she would go ahead with a public event so soon after a grief such as this strikes her family. Volcanic ash or no, it's in very poor taste to appear bejeweled and gowned, as though nothing had happened. After all, it wasn't as though her presence either made or broke the event. Shocking in its calculated nature, rather like a triage of self-interest.

Of course, I'm not a mind reader, but perhaps she felt her interests were better served elsewhere than with her family in their grief either in person or in spirit (observing grief privately.) Oh, well. It's not like it was her husband or anything, right?
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  #39  
Old 04-19-2010, 02:39 PM
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I thought she was close to being 30; not 41. I know there's a wikipedia page on her listing her birthdate but is that accurate? I really thought she was younger than Princess Mary.

---------------------

Okay on this fashion article from NY Times, it mentions Carina Axelsson as being 22 in 1993:
FASHION - FASHION - The Waif Farers - NYTimes.com
so not quite 41 but 39.

Excerpt from NY Times March 21, 1993:
Carina Axelsson is wearing a Jil Sander cropped ribbed sweater, a Tartan skirt from Complice and men's jeans by Gianni Versace. (pg. 48); Carina -- With a portfolio that already includes Italian Vogue, Spanish Vogue and Italian Glamour, Carina Axelsson, a 22-year-old Californian, is now taking Manhattan. Described by admirers as a shorter, thinner, more delicate Linda Evangelista, she calls herself "birdlike." (pg. 49)(Photographs by Manuela Pavesi for The New York Times)

----------------------------
After further research, yes she'll be 41 and was born in 1968. I didn't realize Prince Gustav gave an interview with BB on the occasion of Carina's 40th birthday in 2008. Her birthday being Aug. 5, 1968.
It was verified with the California Public Records. Prior to that time, her press agent was representing that she was 32 years old until it was definitely proven - by someone here at TRF! - that she was in fact much longer in the tooth. At that time, she was 39. At the time that she represented herself to the New York Times as being 22, she was actually 25 years old.
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Old 04-19-2010, 05:12 PM
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ok here's what i would do fine a preety young girl (18 over)and marry her and make her sign a agreement of slience whatever you call them as part of the prenup and keep seeing the girlfriend and then go to the doc and do fertliy drugs get a boy and stay married and keep seeing my other girl on the side just saying and no its not nice but if you do this you can change the rules for the next generation and your child won't have to go though this.
Well your way doesn't sound too nice on the wife or the girl on the side.
How would Carina feel being the "mistress" while Gustav is shacked up with some "pretty" pretend wife.
Plus a royal, even not a high ranking one, wouldn't do anything as risky as that.
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