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  #301  
Old 05-06-2014, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
It's a shame they're being kept from marriage and children if they want them by something so silly.
they can marry and have children
but Gustav want to be rich
Wealth is his priority, not marriage and children
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  #302  
Old 05-06-2014, 12:48 PM
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I agree Hermione. It is a shame that these "laws" still exist as the pool of eligible partners has shrunk considerably since most were written.
The problem in this case in NOT a law. A house law would not be accepted by german Courts nowadays.

The problem is the individuell will of Gustav's grandfather, which states that the grandson (Gustav) can only inherit if he marries a noble women.

Besides, if Gustav and Carina desperately would have wanted children, they would have tried to have them. But they don't seem to be really unhappy, do they? They just make the best out of their situation.
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  #303  
Old 05-06-2014, 07:53 PM
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There was never anything stopping the couple from having children. The children would have been illegitimate, born out of marriage, but that is noa problem now. The sons wouldnt have been able to inherite the furstly title but the children could still have inherited a fair amount of wealth. In the end either the couple couldnt have children or chose not to. If they chose not to then it was their choice. As you say, they seem quite happy with each other.

The bison story is really good news and im glad that after a year it seems to be going well.
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  #304  
Old 05-06-2014, 08:51 PM
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The grandfather was a Nazi, plain and simple. It is not "nobility" he asked for "Ayrans". In today's day and age it is disgusting. Frankly, the family not trying to fighting this is disgusting. Inheriting a title from a Nazi is ignominious. They should have run. I suspect their is money involved.
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  #305  
Old 05-07-2014, 05:06 AM
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Actually the grandfather asked for both, nobility and aryan. But if the Problem with Carina were that the were not "aryan", than the court would rule against this racist part of the will. The point remains that Carina is not of noble decent.

By the way, I never heard that Carina has Jewish ancesters (that is how the Nazis defined "non-aryan" people). She probably could be defined as "aryan" if that were still a valid catogory today (which it isn't, nobody in their right senses cares about it anymore, and it certainly would hold in a German law court).
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  #306  
Old 05-07-2014, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
The grandfather was a Nazi, plain and simple. It is not "nobility" he
asked for "Ayrans". In today's day and age it is disgusting. Frankly, the family not trying to fighting this is disgusting. Inheriting a title from a Nazi is ignominious. They should have run. I suspect their is money involved.
But you also have to consider that the Weill was written during the Nazi Time in Germany. If the late Fürst would have come back from War and written another will he probaly would have left the aryan part out.
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  #307  
Old 05-07-2014, 09:08 AM
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Being aryan wasn't just a question of being of jewish descent to the nazis other peoples like the Slavs, Roma etc... was also considered non-aryan. To complicate it even more the nazis could make people "honorary aryans" if they where considered important enough to the Reich. It happened mostly to officers in the German army of partly Jewish descent or when the wife of (an prominent enough) officer had Jewish descent.
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  #308  
Old 05-07-2014, 09:46 AM
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Yeah, and the most ironic thing about all that Aryan nonsense is that, as far as I understand, the most pure aryans alive today are Northern Indians.

And as such Gypsies are more Aryan than tall, blonde, blue eyed, nordic types.
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  #309  
Old 05-07-2014, 10:00 AM
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Yeah, logics have never counted amoung the strength of the Nazis.

As a German I feel terribly sorry and ashamed about all the crimes commited by them. But all this is not the topic of this thread. I just wanted to stress that in Carina's case her not being noble excludes her from the will.
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  #310  
Old 05-07-2014, 10:15 AM
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You are right, Tilia C.

To be cynical this will smells more like a safeguard against a poor golddigger, or common riff raff and ensuring the social standard.
Secondary to prevent someone to marry someone of a, shall we say, undesirable skin color. In that way the grandfather probably wasn't much different than the majority of Europeans of that age.

What is interesting is that such a will, that clearly discriminate against at least non-nobles, is valid. The Aryan bit could probably be circumnavigated in court, but is a condition of nobility discrimination or not when it comes to inheritance?
Perhaps someone with a knowledge of wills can explain?
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  #311  
Old 05-07-2014, 10:30 AM
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As far as I've heard at the time it was quite the standard in the third reich to have an "aryan clause" in wills since a lot of properties could only be inherited by "aryans". (I might even have read it here on the forums somewhere)
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  #312  
Old 08-30-2014, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
You are right, Tilia C.

To be cynical this will smells more like a safeguard against a poor golddigger, or common riff raff and ensuring the social standard.
Secondary to prevent someone to marry someone of a, shall we say, undesirable skin color. In that way the grandfather probably wasn't much different than the majority of Europeans of that age.

What is interesting is that such a will, that clearly discriminate against at least non-nobles, is valid. The Aryan bit could probably be circumnavigated in court, but is a condition of nobility discrimination or not when it comes to inheritance?
Perhaps someone with a knowledge of wills can explain?
It is a sort of Fidei Commisum construction which is an inheritance system based on Roman Law aimed to keep the bulk of a family's heritage unfragmented for the benefit and usufruct of the (head of) the family. The family as a whole (rather than individual members) was the juridical owner of the heritage. It is a testamentary obligation for the heirs to keep the heritage and, on their turn, pass it in at least the same state to their successive heirs.

Like in many European countries, also in Germany the Fidei Commisum was ended (in 1938). This because such a system blocks the proper workings of the general heritage regulation that all children have the right on an equal part of the heritage. For historic Fidei Commisum-regulations there was a period to change it. Many families erected Family Foundations or made remainders for usufruct. So to see the inheritance of Prince Gustav also had a remainder. The German Law allows Nießbrauch an einer Erbschaft (Usufruct of a heritage), § 1089 of the Civic Code, set by special remainder.

For example, if the owner of property makes a grant of that property to his eldest grandon, then that grandson becomes the remainderman, he is entitled to a future interest, the remainder. Such a remainder can have requirements for beneficiaries for purposes of the trust, he has to be 'qualified’. The requirement that a remainderman for a large historic noble heritage dequalifies when not engaging in an Ebenbürtige marriage is not that weird and outrageous for a heritage which mainly consists of ancestral estates, domains, lands and properties with the aim to keep the high historic noble standing and patrimonium of a House.

Gustav is in not at all hindranced, he can marry Ms Axelsson if he wants. He is not the only Sayn-Wittgenstein walking around. There are other gentlemen who do meet the requirements in the Will and they will surely fight in Court, pointing to the fact that Gustav did not 'qualify' and this means that the estate, should go to the most senior closest male relative who does completely fit inside the set conditions and requirements. There lies the problem. I believe that when Prince Richard dies and Gustav is the final owner, he can eventually change the remainder. But Carina will then be too old for children. That means that the inheritance still will go to the most senior male relative fitting in the original remainder.



The younger brother of Prince Gustav's father is the most senior male relative. He however married twice with ladies not meeting the requirements. The second most senior male relative is Bernhart Fürst zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Hohenstein who married Katharina, daughter of Max Graf von Podewilz-Dürniz and of Elisabeth Freifrau von Hirschberg. They have a young son, Wenzel Erbprinz zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Hohenstein.
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  #313  
Old 08-30-2014, 11:51 AM
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All seems to be Prince Richard fault. I don't like this Prince who does not want his Son to be happy. I may understand why Princess Benedicte is so often in Denmark!
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  #314  
Old 08-30-2014, 01:39 PM
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All seems to be Prince Richard fault. I don't like this Prince who does not want his Son to be happy. I may understand why Princess Benedicte is so often in Denmark!
Prince Richard can do nothing about this. His father made the Will and became missing in 1944, when Prince Richard was just 10 years old. Prince Richard had to wait 25 years (until 1969) to have his father officially dead and so becoming the Fürst zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg.

He inherited nothing from his father. To escape succession taxes, his father has granted everything to his eldest grandson but gave Prince Richard the Nießbrauch of the whole estate, that is: executing ownership rights without being the owner. As his son is the beneficiant of his father's Will, and not Prince Richard himself, he can do nothing.



That we seldom see Prince Richard is because he is a man who likes to live in the background, he dislikes a public life. The latest years the Prince seems to struggle with his health as well. He will be busy enough managing his (son's) enormous estate.

Pic: Schloss Berleburg, note the swimming pool at the left and the dressage field (for horseriding) at the right http://www.klaes-w.de/fotos/luftbild...rg08092183.jpg
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  #315  
Old 08-30-2014, 02:20 PM
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Not to be pedantic, but doesn't Prince Richard refers to himself as a Prinz rather than a Fürst? I remember him mentioning in one of his interviews (I suppose, it was the one he gave to HR couple of years ago) that since Fürst is a reigning title and Germany already has a "reigning" Head of State, namely the President, it would be "illegal" (his words) for him or any other German noble to use the title of Fürst.

Historically, he is the 6th Fürst.

Also, the image I gained from couple of his interviews was that he is a very "singular" man.
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  #316  
Old 08-30-2014, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
All seems to be Prince Richard fault. I don't like this Prince who does not want his Son to be happy. I may understand why Princess Benedicte is so often in Denmark!
As already explained above, it is not Prince Richard's fault. Also, I don't see that Gustav and Carina are unhappy. They aren't married, so what? There are loads of couples in current day Germany, who are unmarried but living in an long-term relationship. There is no social stigma anymore. And from what I know, Carina alread is in her mid-forties. So they probably have no thoughts about children anymore.
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  #317  
Old 08-30-2014, 02:48 PM
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Carina is a very happy lady the way her life is, she is in love and still does her own thing in writing books. In other words Carina like so many women today don't need a ring to have the love of a man. She is more then able to take care of herself and does. She is one very strong independent intelligent lady........besides being beautiful.
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  #318  
Old 08-30-2014, 03:00 PM
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A agree with both but where are they living in the Castle ??
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  #319  
Old 08-30-2014, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Charlotte_Aster View Post
Not to be pedantic, but doesn't Prince Richard refers to himself as a Prinz rather than a Fürst? I remember him mentioning in one of his interviews (I suppose, it was the one he gave to HR couple of years ago) that since Fürst is a reigning title and Germany already has a "reigning" Head of State, namely the President, it would be "illegal" (his words) for him or any other German noble to use the title of Fürst.

Historically, he is the 6th Fürst.

Also, the image I gained from couple of his interviews was that he is a very "singular" man.
With becoming the Fürst in 1969 I meant that finally his father was officially declared dead after 25 years and so Prince Richard became the Head of the House Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg. I only used that word to designate him from the others as the one and the only chef.



I know that the title Fürst is no longer officially used. Still I see lots of references, for an example to Fürstin Gloria (von T&T) while she never can be the Fürstin as she is the widow of the previous Fürst.

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