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  #201  
Old 08-04-2011, 02:35 PM
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I do not feel compassion for Carina anymore, because of her most unkind words about the parents of Prince Gustav, especially about such sweet lady as Princess Benedicte.
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  #202  
Old 08-04-2011, 02:49 PM
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I do not feel compassion for Carina anymore, because of her most unkind words about the parents of Prince Gustav, especially about such sweet lady as Princess Benedicte.
Do I miss something?
I never heard about unkind comments to the parents in law?
Looking at the pics I have the impression that the relation between mother and daughter in law is OK.
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  #203  
Old 08-04-2011, 03:26 PM
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Do I miss something?
I never heard about unkind comments to the parents in law?
...
It's all contained in the prior thread, sjetajiem.
They are not 'parents-in-law', since there was no marriage registered.
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  #204  
Old 08-04-2011, 03:26 PM
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Do I miss something?
I never heard about unkind comments to the parents in law?
Looking at the pics I have the impression that the relation between mother and daughter in law is OK.

If I remember correctly she gave an interview with a couple of remarks about Prince Richard that, IMO, weren't unkind but were, let's say, more honest than usual for that sort of interview. Given the similarly direct remarks Richard himself has made about the Danish royals in the past, it's hard to see him as a victim.
I don't have the interview in front of me but I believe Carina was quite complimentary towards Princess Benedickte.
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  #205  
Old 08-04-2011, 08:47 PM
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The whole situation with these two is really odd and is going to lead to nothing but a mess and heartache for someone. But it's their lives and if they're happy right now then more power to them, I just can't see this ending anything but badly for someone, probably Carina.
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  #206  
Old 08-05-2011, 08:43 AM
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The interview is found earlier in the thread. And there wasn't a kind word about anyone.

They have made a decision that this is what they want and how they want it. Why is there such an insistence that they marry? It picks no one's pocket that the money will go to a cousin rather than a son.

I genuinely believe that the "protesting the will" idea has long been left by the wayside as they have zero chance of success. This is exactly who they are and what they are.
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  #207  
Old 08-05-2011, 09:41 AM
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I was not aware that in German law you could make stipulations that are holding up several generations down. Two generations, yes, if you skip one generation. You can say: all goes to one child. My eldest son does not inherit, but if he has a son and this son either fulfills the necessary requirements or does not do things I explicitely forbid, then he inherits and keeps it.

But he cannot force this heir to live according to house rules. These house rules are not longer legally binding if they are not accepted by the living members of a noble house. So of course Richard together with Gustav (who is the owner of the castle as long as he does not forfeit this right through the wrong marriage, I think) can decide that they don't accept the house laws. And Gustav, as he is legally the owner, can decide to name his sister and her children as his heirs. According to German law, this could even be the "important reason" needed to change the name of the children from "Graf Pfeil" (? Is that correct?) to their mother's name of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg.

At least that was what I heard when a friend of my mother-in-law inquired at a lawyer how she could protect part of her inhertance from her daughter and give it to the grand-child directly on condition that this grand-child does keep the estate and take care for the daughter (his mother) as long as she lives. She was told that she can't make those stipulation for the heir of her heir in case the grandson died before his mother who in that case would be the heiress of her son if he had no own children or wasn't married. The only way to protect the estate in any case was turning it into a family foundation with rules about who profited from it as long as the foundation was valid but she didn't do it. Back to Gutsav: I don't think the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg estates are a family foundation as well ( as eg is the family foundation of the Wittelsbach, which grants male descendants much greater support than the princesses which is unjust but obviously legal).
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  #208  
Old 08-05-2011, 09:58 AM
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Then you seem to have struck on a solution, Kataryn, that the S-W-B's do not wish to avail themselves of. Similarly, there was an opportunity for the couple to marry religiously and via adoption of her children by him, have inheritance rights; Jo of Palentine brought that up.

We don't know exactly what was in that will that makes it so impenetrable, nor the House laws.

So there are some solutions such as yours, Kataryn, but yet they are (seeming to be) taking the harder route of direct strike-down of the will.

It seems that they don't want a solution, then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Back to Gutsav: I don't think the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg estates are a family foundation as well ( as eg is the family foundation of the Wittelsbach, which grants male descendants much greater support than the princesses which is unjust but obviously legal).
Just want you to know how much I agree with what you wrote! How much simpler if Gustav's sisters could inherit, as Alexandra married equally and has legitimate children!
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  #209  
Old 08-05-2011, 10:03 AM
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However, as case law shows in similar situations in Germany Heads of Household/House law can place restrictions on inheritance based on behaviour. This has been upheld in similar situations to this one, as has been covered previously in this thread and in the first thread.

I don't think I can muster up sympathy for either. It's a mercenary decision on their parts. They like how it is and choose to live without marriage but with money. What's to feel pity for?



Yes, he can, Luna. He can marry her today, tomorrow, whenever he wishes. He chooses not to.

This thread and the previous one have covered this exhaustively, and the fact remains that Gustav can marry whomever he chooses, whenever he chooses.
I thought he couldn`t marry, because of his grandfather`s will ?
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  #210  
Old 08-05-2011, 12:47 PM
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Gustav can marry anyone he likes, he has free will to do whatever he likes but if he wants to hold on to the House of Berleburg he has to marry a noble woman. I agree with Camelot23ca, there are many things in life that are unfair but people have to suck it up and deal with it.

My opinion is if they are happy to just live together more power to them but I it's hard to feel sorry for people who can get married at anytime they want to but don't just to hold on to an inheritance. Carina in my opinon knew what she got herself into so if she is happy playing princess and being Gustav's partner forever than I hope they are very happy together.
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  #211  
Old 08-05-2011, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Vesper1987 View Post
Gustav can marry anyone he likes, he has free will to do whatever he likes but if he wants to hold on to the House of Berleburg he has to marry a noble woman. I agree with Camelot23ca, there are many things in life that are unfair but people have to suck it up and deal with it.

My opinion is if they are happy to just live together more power to them but I it's hard to feel sorry for people who can get married at anytime they want to but don't just to hold on to an inheritance. Carina in my opinon knew what she got herself into so if she is happy playing princess and being Gustav's partner forever than I hope they are very happy together.
Eh, let's turn that one around.

- "We are in love, let's get married. Okay, that means I lose my estate and a huge fortune, and our children will never inherit said estate and a huge fortune. They'll have to settle for something less but at least we got married".
That sounds a little bit selfish in my eyes.
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  #212  
Old 08-05-2011, 01:08 PM
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But he cannot force this heir to live according to house rules. These house rules are not longer legally binding if they are not accepted by the living members of a noble house.
I think I read once that Gustav's uncle insists that house rules be followed. That if the entire family had agreed upon it, Gustav could have kept the estate and still married Carina. The will in itself is horrible, but was written in another era. What makes me sick, though, is that someone in this time and age insists that it should be followed.
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  #213  
Old 08-05-2011, 01:20 PM
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I think I read once that Gustav's uncle insists that house rules be followed. That if the entire family had agreed upon it, Gustav could have kept the estate and still married Carina. The will in itself is horrible, but was written in another era. What makes me sick, though, is that someone in this time and age insists that it should be followed.

Yes is terrible
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  #214  
Old 08-05-2011, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by efraimsdotter View Post
I think I read once that Gustav's uncle insists that house rules be followed. That if the entire family had agreed upon it, Gustav could have kept the estate and still married Carina. The will in itself is horrible, but was written in another era. What makes me sick, though, is that someone in this time and age insists that it should be followed.
We have covered this already, earlier in the thread. Extensively. Exhaustively.

This is. Not. True.

Please provide a link or a source for this "uncle insisting," or perhaps read earlier in the thread where within the past week, Mueler has translated an article discussing the heirs. Why would an uncle without a stake in this, enforce the will? Think about that and see if it makes sense.

Princess Luna - again, I strongly recommend reading through the first thread and the second thread to gain a fuller understanding here. Gustav can marry anyone he chooses - any time! According to both his grandfather's will and House law, he has to marry someone with a certain background (also discussed extensively in this thread) or he loses his money and inheritance.

So he is not marrying Carina in order to keep his money.

May I just suggest again that those interested in this topic take the time to read through both of the threads covering this? We have had some really good process in all this, in understanding the issue.

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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Eh, let's turn that one around.

- "We are in love, let's get married. Okay, that means I lose my estate and a huge fortune, and our children will never inherit said estate and a huge fortune. They'll have to settle for something less but at least we got married".
That sounds a little bit selfish in my eyes.
"Darling, if we marry and I lose my money, you will have to work for a living! I will have to work for a living! Our children will have to become educated taxpaying equals in society, earning a living!"

That sounds pretty...entitled.

Can't have it both ways.

Gustav knew that the one thing he had to do in this life was to marry "appropriately." And he failed at that. You could also argue that he's selfishly throwing away the legacy of his family over centuries by just stopping in place. You could also argue that the only reason he HAS the money at all is because of the careful estate planning of his grandfather. There's a strong case to be made for all of that loot being taken after WWII as the rightful spoils of war or to enormous inheritance taxes which existed as well, leaving baby Prince Richard destitute and the future Gustav in the position of having to, you know, go out and work for a living. How dreadful to contemplate, eh?

They've decided to just march in place, and you know what? They can. But what they can't and should do is whine about what is making them "not" marry. And to be honest, neither has whined about it for a long time, they've just accepted that this is how it is.
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  #215  
Old 08-05-2011, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post
"Darling, if we marry and I lose my money, you will have to work for a living! I will have to work for a living! Our children will have to become educated taxpaying equals in society, earning a living!"

That sounds pretty...entitled.
Whatever it is, it's a lot of money you say goodbye to.....
And as you point out, their children will have to face the world in a much less financially secure way.

Not only that, your branch of the family, will no longer be in possession of Schloss Berleburg. You lost it, it's your fault.

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Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post
Why would an uncle without a stake in this, enforce the will? Think about that and see if it makes sense.
Why not? Money and estates.
People have been known to take eachother to court for a lot less.

How is the relationship between the two branches of the family?

You'll find the interview here: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post1186235

- And I think Carina has some... issues and that shines through in the interview.

For those who actually wish to read the actual interview and put it through a Google translation: http://www.box.net/shared/nuiydnxeko3x9n9zeuoo
http://www.box.net/shared/k4nk9sfzenaxxrly7cbs
http://www.box.net/shared/8s4fuv19l0sd3c6986s4
http://www.box.net/shared/cpa8y3ue0qp0f5uncz6d
http://www.box.net/shared/7dxlciyz4l6gu47zb5v5
- These links will cease working in a few days.
Important: First open the image in full screen. Then zoom in. Give the files a few seconds to load.
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  #216  
Old 08-05-2011, 02:24 PM
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Honestly though, this situation could have been resolved a long time ago! Germany is full of eligible noble women for Gustav to marry! His parents, knowing that he had to marry equal, should have sent him to the same schools and social events as other German nobles! But they let him lead a semi-normal life and he fell in love with a normal girl, it was bound to happen! He could of married equally had an heir, and probably led a happy life, if this was instilled in him at a young age!
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  #217  
Old 08-05-2011, 03:59 PM
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Eh, let's turn that one around.

- "We are in love, let's get married. Okay, that means I lose my estate and a huge fortune, and our children will never inherit said estate and a huge fortune. They'll have to settle for something less but at least we got married".
That sounds a little bit selfish in my eyes.
IF they want to get married or IF they want to have children and are letting the conditions of the will somehow dictate their choices - ie "we really want to do these things but don't because we'd lose our money" then that's sad for them personally, IMO, but not the sort of attitude that should inspire much sympathy. For one thing it's not like Gustav made this fortune by the sweat of his brow - it was handed to him on a platter, without him doing anything to earn it, at the expense of other members of his family who were discriminated against because of their gender and birth order. Natalie and Alexandra didn't meet the conditions of the will - they weren't the firstborn male. Oh well, that means they don't inherit. Gustav is in a similar situation - he's entitled to the estate only in so far as he fulfills the conditions, however idiotic, of the person who passed it on to him.

What I think is the most likely scenario, however, is that Gustav and Carina are fairly content with the way things are now. Not everyone sees a big difference between being in a long term committed relationship and being married. And not everyone WANTS children. Maybe they're both happy to enjoy each other and the lifestyle the estate affords them and to not worry overly much about who inherits after Gustav.
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  #218  
Old 08-05-2011, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by NotAPretender
Why would an uncle without a stake in this, enforce the will? Think about that and see if it makes sense.

Why not? Money and estates.
People have been known to take eachother to court for a lot less.
Because in order for the mythical "uncle" to take Gustav to court over enforcing the will, he would have to have standing. Since Gustav's uncles currently have not standing with regard to the will, Gustav's "uncle" would not be in a legal position to make such a challenge.

That's why I keep pressing for someone - anyone - to come up with a link to this whole fable of the "uncle" pressing for the will and some sort of family agreement that says "OK Gustav, do what you want." It's improbable; both the will and the House laws are immutable. Surely, there would have been some mention of a family as large and wealthy as this one, coming to an agreement where everyone just says "oh, no thank you, not for me!" to money and titles and huge swaths of land in favor of someone who just wasn't fulfilling his destiny. As you said, "people have been known to take each other to court for a lot less." To me, that makes it incredibly unlikely that everyone will step aside for Gustav and if they had, unlikely that it would not have made it to the press and into court documents so that someone - anyone - could link it here.

The "evil uncle" is simply an often-retold tale that someone wants to believe but has never been sourced. After all, if Gustav can't marry his true love, then there must be a force of evil preventing it! (It can't simply just be his choice to hang onto money, property, and titles instead of marrying!)

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How is the relationship between the two branches of the family?
Prince Bernhart (Bernhard) attended the religious marriage of Princess Nathalie earlier this summer, so I imagine it's quite cordial.
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  #219  
Old 08-05-2011, 06:34 PM
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Thanks, NotAPretender.

I agree, no one will stand aside for the benefit of Gustav.

If relatives can into a fight over aunt Sophie's coffee table, imagine what they are prepared to do when it's about a huge estate.

I don't know about any evil uncles. And whether the motives of Gustav and Carina are sympathetic or not is actually beside the point. They are certainly understandable. I'd say that practically all who have a lot of money will go to extraordinary lengths to keep them and in most cases insure their heirs will get them when they die. No matter whether they earned the money themselves, inherited them or won the lottery.

Anyway, perhaps all will be unveiled in the next episode of Schloss Berleburg?
It's almost a heimatfilm. We only need some cute cows, traditional constumes and a few songs and we're there....
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  #220  
Old 08-05-2011, 07:05 PM
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Anyway, perhaps all will be unveiled in the next episode of Schloss Berleburg?
It's almost a heimatfilm. We only need some cute cows, traditional constumes and a few songs and we're there....
heh heh.

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