Prince Gustav and Carina Axelsson, Current Events & Discussion Part 2

[Muhler]

Ja, han har jo altid været lidt af en træmand.

A little harmless joke among us resident Danes. Alas, it's very difficult to translate. - I just couldn't resist.

[FasterB]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Ja, han har jo altid været lidt af en træmand.

A little harmless joke among us resident Danes. Alas, it's very difficult to translate. - I just couldn't resist.

[Tilia C.]

Don't take this degree too seriously! It's more of a publicity gag of a local crafts museum. It seems to be kind of a tradition to do this thing each year between Christmas and New Year's Eve. They invite a prominent person from the region, let them carve a wooden spoon, and have a good excuse for drinking some Schnaps out of wooden spoons.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Tilia C.

Don't take this degree too seriously! It's more of a publicity gag of a local crafts museum. It seems to be kind of a tradition to do this thing each year between Christmas and New Year's Eve. They invite a prominent person from the region, let them carve a wooden spoon, and have a good excuse for drinking some Schnaps out of wooden spoons.

I see
Sounds like a good idea. - And it's good to see Gustav finally coming out of the woodwork... And carving a path for himself...

Han tager åbenbart (træ-)skeen i den anden hånd....

Sorry, I cannot resist.

[BurberryBrit]

So Carina makes a little more headway and is the Godmother of a Danish princess. Poor thing. It's nice that they include her but I wonder if she feels awkward?

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by BurberryBrit

So Carina makes a little more headway and is the Godmother of a Danish princess. Poor thing. It's nice that they include her but I wonder if she feels awkward?

I would think she feels honoured. After all, not everyone gets to be a godmother for a Danish Princess. Carina's situation is unfortunate; however, she appears to be very much accepted by the Danish Royal Family as a full member of the family, regardless of her marital status.

[Lenora]

Usborne has acquired two books by model turned children's book author Carina Axelsson, with the stories combining high-end fashion, detective work and romance.
Usborne acquires two model books | The Bookseller

[imojeen]

Carina Axelsson is a pretty woman. I don't know her and Pr. Gustav so much.

Why aren't they married? Gustav needs a child as an heir, doesn't he?

If he will die without a child, who will inherite Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg?

[An Ard Ri]

Originally Posted by imojeen

If he will die without a child, who will inherite Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg?

As per Wiki

'The principality and princely title of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg descended, historically, according to semi-Salic primogeniture. If the unmarried and childless Gustav dies without legitimate issue, the family heritage devolves upon his father's younger brother, Prince Robin zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg'

[Nice Nofret]

Originally Posted by imojeen

Why aren't they married? Gustav needs a child as an heir, doesn't he?

They are not married because Carina is not 'Standesgemäss' his equal. If he marries unequal he will lose being head of his house immediately .. with that, he would also lose a large part of his property, which is tight to the head of the house.

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by imojeen

Carina Axelsson is a pretty woman. I don't know her and Pr. Gustav so much. Why aren't they married? Gustav needs a child as an heir, doesn't he?

They aren't married because of a will that states that in order to retain his position, Gustav needs to marry a noblewoman of Aryan blood. Carina is neither a noblewoman, nor of Aryan blood so if they marry, Prince Gustav will effectively forfeit his position. Contrary to popular belief, the will doesn't actually forbid Gustav to marry whoever he wishes; it merely stipulates that should such a marriage be against the terms of the will, Gustav will have to surrender his hereditary rights.

The couple have been working to nullify the will for years now, without much success. German law very specifically states that a person in sound mind is entitled to leave his estate to anyone and under any conditions he wishes. They might succeed in annulling the Aryan bit but hardly the noblewoman clause.

This said, there is are actually two loopholes that would allow Gustav and Carina to marry without violating the will's conditions, and/or for their potential children to have inheritance rights.

- If Gustav fathers children (in our out of wedlock), he can acknowledge and adopt them, whereby the eldest son will be his Heir (as per provisions of German Law).
- Carina and Gustav can also marry in a Church wedding without subsequent civil union. In that case, the will's conditions will again not be violated, Carina can be styled as Princess Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, and their children will be legitimate will full inheritance rights.

If he will die without a child, who will inherite Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg?

If Prince Gustav has no legitimate heirs, the next person in the line to meet all the requirements of the will is, I believe, the first-born son of Prince Robin (Prince Gustav's uncle). The Wikipedia article is wrong in naming Prince Robin himself as the heir because his second marriage was morganatic, thus disqualifying him from family inheritance. His first marriage was, however, to a noblewoman so the son from that marriage should be eligible to have full inheritance rights (provided he doesn't marry a non-Aryan and non-noblewoman himself).

[Biri]

What does "Aryan blood" mean? Sorry, but IMHO it smells of hitlerism.

[Charlotte_Aster]

However, Artemisia, as discussed before, they can have a Vhurvh wedding with a civil one, but it won't be recognized by state. Thus I'm not so sure whether she would legally be allowed to carry the surname Prinzessin zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg.

Biri, it does belong to a Nazi ideology. It means of "the pure race" or "master race", as they called it. Aryan people according to the Nazi ideology are/were "Nordic/Germanic people", who are not mixed with other "lesser races". Since Frau Axelsson's mother is of Mexican descent, she doesn't count as "Aryan".

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Biri

What does "Aryan blood" mean? Sorry, but IMHO it smells of hitlerism.

The "Aryan blood" clause was added at the height of World War II and Gustav Albrecht, 5th Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg was himself a German officer who died in action in 1944. For the time, it made perfect sense for a prominent German officer to insist on "purity of blood" clause.

[Lee-Z]

That testament story is fascinating; does this mean that all the heirs in the next centuries to come will still have to comply to that will that was drawn up in the 1940's?
Or will this only last for a specific nr of generations?

And maybe a really silly question, but what would happen if the current head of the family made a will that stipulated the exact opposit and no heir could comply with both wills at the same time...?

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Lee-Z

That testament story is fascinating; does this mean that all the heirs in the next centuries to come will still have to comply to that will that was drawn up in the 1940's?
Or will this only last for a specific nr of generations?

And maybe a really silly question, but what would happen if the current head of the family made a will that stipulated the exact opposit and no heir could comply with both wills at the same time...?

Gustav Albrecht, 5th Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg wrote the will specifically naming his future grandson as his heir bypassing Prince Richard; thus, as far as I understand, the terms of the will should apply to Prince Gustav only. The will notwithstanding, there are also House Laws which are pretty strict on their own, especially in regards to morganatic marriages.

I am not entirely certain on this, however.

[Lee-Z]

Originally Posted by Artemisia

Gustav Albrecht, 5th Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg wrote the will specifically naming his future grandson as his heir bypassing Prince Richard; thus, as far as I understand, the terms of the will should apply to Prince Gustav only. The will notwithstanding, there are also House Laws which are pretty strict on their own, especially in regards to morganatic marriages.

I am not entirely certain on this, however.

Ah okay, so whereas probably all heirs have to comply with the House Laws (which probably requires a marriage to a noble woman at the very least), until Prince Gustav has to comply with the arian (and protestant) clause...
And his father Richard is the current head of the family, but not the heir of Gustav Albrecht, as he was bypassed in the will (probably to avoid huge succession payments?)...?

That's a fine mess this Gustav Albrecht has left (excusez le mot)

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Lee-Z

Ah okay, so whereas probably all heirs have to comply with the House Laws (which probably requires a marriage to a noble woman at the very least), until Prince Gustav has to comply with the arian (and protestant) clause...
And his father Richard is the current head of the family, but not the heir of Gustav Albrecht, as he was bypassed in the will (probably to avoid huge succession payments?)...?

That's a fine mess this Gustav Albrecht has left (excusez le mot)

Again, I must point out that I'm not entirely certain the conditions of the will apply to Prince Gustav only. The reason I believe that to be the case is because, as far as I know German law, you cannot make any pre-conditions beyond one unborn generation (which, in Gustav Albrecht's case, meant children of his children).

As for the motives behind Gustav Albrecht's will, they might not be as straightforward as it may seem. The "Aryan" clause was perhaps not as much because of the Prince's Nazi sympathies (if they existed) but because at the time many non-Aryans and their descendants lost their properties; Gustav Albrecht had no way of knowing how long the Third Reich would last so he might have just been trying to protect the family fortune by ensuring his heir (grandson) marries an "acceptable" woman.

The decision to bypass his own son is slightly more difficult to explain; at the time of Gustav Albrecht's death, Prince Richard was not yet six years old and his younger brother - just a toddler. Gustav Albrecht might have tried to avoid inheritance taxes by ensuring the fortune is inherited "intact" by his grandson. There might have been other relevant, war-related reasons we cannot really understand now.

I must also note that the situation of bypassing an heir or of setting conditions for the marriages of future heirs is not unique to this family. Karl Friedrich III of Oettingen-Wallerstein named his grandson as his heir, bypassing his own son, Prince Moritz (although as soon as the said grandson came of age, he gave the control of the family fortune to his father). On the background issue, the Leiningen Family Edict of 1897 similarly states that members of the family can only marry representatives of aristocracy. Just years ago, the German High Court made a ruling in favour of the edict, stating that it was basically up to the owner of an estate to stipulate who or how can inherit it (Karl-Emich von Leiningen, the eldest son of the 7th Prince Leiningen, had to renounce his rights to marry his second non-noblewoman wife, and was contesting the edict). A similar ruling was made in the Hohenzollern case.

[Nice Nofret]

I'm quite sure that by house-laws adopted children have NOT the right to inherit - so they could only inherit their part of the personal fortune, but not anything of the estate belonging to the head of house... and never become head of house

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Nice Nofret

I'm quite sure that by house-laws adopted children have NOT the right to inherit - so they could only inherit their part of the personal fortune, but not anything of the estate belonging to the head of house... and never become head of house

By German law, if Gustav has a child out of wedlock and then proceeds to legally adopt him, the baby would become an Heir to the Berleburg estate.
There is no clause in Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg House Law (that I know of) that prohibits such children from inheriting.