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  #241  
Old 08-07-2011, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Sancia View Post
Thanks for the answer. I call this a job, managing such an estate is not just a hobby.

About the rest of your post, I would agree if the estate had been made and the lands united by the nazi grandpa. But as it is an ancestral estate, the "nazi" care of it is not as important.
If they married, could there be a large donation from prince Richard which would leave the estate or a huge part of the estate to his son and daughter-in-law, to get round the will?
Good heaven, yes; an estate of that size with multiple large land holdings and cash flow streams is not just a full time job, it's a corporation.


The only reason I am emphasizing the "Nazi" aspect is because that was the PR spin put on it when it was discussed by the press agents, clearly a deliberate mention to evoke sympathy. It's also one of the things that keeps getting brought up here. You are correct - the ancestral nature of the House laws supersede the grandfather's will, and they have the same strictures on suitable brides, excluding the language of "Aryan."

Thanks for getting that! It's often overlooked.

If Gustav were to marry an "unsuitable" bride, the estates and all that they entail go directly to the next heir.

By the way, the S-W-Berleburg House as it currently stands has a fairly recent split wherein the S-W-Hohenstein House lacked an heir, so the second son of the S-W-B house was adopted as heir to the S-W-H cadet branch and assumed the headship of that House (his elder brother inheriting S-W-B.) When Prince Bernhard S-W-H inherits S-W-B (or his own son does,) the titles and estates will merge and the "junior" S-W-H House will be subsumed into the "higher" S-W-B.
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  #242  
Old 08-07-2011, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post

Then we must be looking at a different interview. In the one that I read, Carina takes a slam at the "closed" world of dressage (Nathalie,) the dilapidated state of the rest of the castle (slam at Benedikt,) indicates that her generation (hers and Gustav's) could not spend the way that previous ones did (slam at Richard & Benedikt) and discusses Richard's temper with snide remarks about his "special" nature.

She spoke of her friendship with the Danish royals in terms of how close she and the Crown Princely couple were, but that was more in a manner of constrasting her relationship with R & B, which she then goes on to describe in the terms I've just mentioned.

It was a very testy interview, and the interviewer offered her several options to soften her language that she did not take.

One thing that did emerge from the interview was that she was adamant that she just didn't give a toss if they married or not, that for her, being herself was enough and that it was going to have to be enough for everyone else, too. It seems to me that this couple has gone through all the permutations of this situation quite thoroughly and have consciously and repeatedly confirmed this course of action for themselves. They've weighed it all and this is where they are and what they are.

It's only "odd" because for some reason, in the eyes of some here, marriage and children seem to be the only course of action that is "right."

They're grooving on each other even knowing all the potential outcomes. And that should be enough.
Hmm, no, from what you're describing I think we must be talking about the same interview and just have very different interpretations of what Carina said.

I do agree that this couple has always seemed quite content with their relationship as is.
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  #243  
Old 08-07-2011, 05:08 PM
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If I were in their position and ardently desired a marriage and children, I'd follow the path partly laid out by Jo of Palentine earlier: a religious wedding with no legal standing, but secure in the knowlege of a marriage blessed by an institution in which I believed.
I don't think that's possible in the German Evangelical-Lutheran church! They do a 'blessing' following a civil wedding ceremony, as we saw recently! A 'wedding' or blessing ceremony of a relationship with no legal standing would in itself be contradictory! A marriage is a commitment with legal implications and the blessing concerns the parties who've undertaken the commitment.
IMO a commitment ceremony - or whatever you choose to call it - with no legal implications would only be possible in a Las Vegas chapel!

Viv

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Originally Posted by Sancia View Post
Elvire was not noble and she was catholic, so she didn't fulfil the will's conditions
IMO Gustav Wittgenstein would have considered the conditions before proposing to Elvire de Rochefort. Or what? We (the Danes) never heard that Elvire's Roman- catholic background was an issue, but maybe she intended to become a protestant?? If I remember correctly the pair planned to marry in RC Sacre Coeur in Paris!

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I agree it is a very unconfortable position for both of them. Carina Axelsson and prince Gustav will probably have no children and it must be difficult to make a choice no one can criticize
Agree, but I'm not convinced that we know the entire story!

Viv
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  #244  
Old 08-07-2011, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Viv View Post
I don't think that's possible in the German Evangelical-Lutheran church! They do a 'blessing' following a civil wedding ceremony, as we saw recently! A 'wedding' or blessing ceremony of a relationship with no legal standing would in itself be contradictory! A marriage is a commitment with legal implications and the blessing concerns the parties who've undertaken the commitment.
IMO a commitment ceremony - or whatever you choose to call it - with no legal implications would only be possible in a Las Vegas chapel!

Viv
It seems that the law you are referring to was overturned in 2009, so yes, you can marry religiously then civilly. Here you are, Viv. Jo's post and link.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...-11730-17.html

July 8, 2008
-----------

Am back after a short break and see that noone has mentioned the upcoming change in German family law which will become valid at the beginning of next year.

This law revises a law that became valid in 1875 which forced the churches to only marry people religiously when they had married by the state's lwa before. From 1.1.2009 church marriages and state marriages are two seperate bodies of law again like it was in 1875 and before.

How does that influence Gustaf and Carina?

A will with a provision about the marriage of an heir most likely will only affect a marriage by public law. Houselaws which are older than 1875 most probably are build around religious marriages, as public marriages did not really exist before that date. So when in 2009 these two types of marriage are seperated as bodies of law, Gustaf could marry Carina in church (probably valid according to his houselaws when it comes to produce legitimate heirs) while not marry her in a public office. It's a discussion going on if a church wedding consists of an "important reason" for a name change according to general law but as far as I could find out most experts say that it is.

So if Gustav married Carina in church, she could even get a name change to Princess of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and bear "legitimate" children with a claim to both the name and the inheritance of their father while the will is not affected by it.

I personally like that idea for Gustaf and Carina's sake, though I wished the will's provision about an "Aryan" marriage would be declared void. But who knows when and if this will happen!
-------------

I guess it's possible outside of Vegas!

(It doesn't address the issue of House Laws, as Jo points out, but as I said, my solution isn't centered around making sure a child inherits, but only that if a marriage and child are desired.)
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  #245  
Old 08-07-2011, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post
It seems that the law you are referring to was overturned in 2009, so yes, you can marry religiously then civilly. Here you are, Viv. Jo's post and link.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...-11730-17.html
.............................
I guess it's possible outside of Vegas!
Thanks for bringing this to my attention! However it still doesn't make any sense to me, as it is not in accordance with the Lutheran understanding of marriage! Forgive my being a bit pigheaded about this ! So I checked the website of the Evangelical Lutheran church in Germany, where I found a statement from July 3rd 2008 that the EKD (church) will not offer 'religious weddings' unless the couple can produce a wedding certificate from a "Standesamt" - i.e. a civil ceremony.
Maybe a German member can elaborate ? I'll gladly stand corrected if I prove to be wrong!

Viv
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  #246  
Old 08-07-2011, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Viv View Post
Thanks for bringing this to my attention! However it still doesn't make any sense to me, as it is not in accordance with the Lutheran understanding of marriage! Forgive my being a bit pigheaded about this ! So I checked the website of the Evangelical Lutheran church in Germany, where I found a statement from July 3rd 2008 that the EKD (church) will not offer 'religious weddings' unless the couple can produce a wedding certificate from a "Standesamt" - i.e. a civil ceremony.
Maybe a German member can elaborate ? I'll gladly stand corrected if I prove to be wrong!

Viv
I bolded there :-)

Well, I'm not German of course, but you are looking at a statement from the EKD from July 3, 2008 and the law went into effect on January 1, 2009.

And I can't claim credit for that, I'm quoting a very knowlegable posting party.
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  #247  
Old 08-08-2011, 12:31 AM
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No, it wasn´t weird back in those days. IIRC, then it had something to do with the tax you pay when you inherit something and that that smount could be less with the estate going to an unborn grandson than to the living son.
Gustav was born before the grandfather was declared dead. Generation skipping inheritance in order to bypass taxes is possible in a number of countries so that was probably the reason the grandfather was not declared dead until a son and heir was born despite being assumed deceased for so many years.
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  #248  
Old 08-08-2011, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post
I bolded there :-)

Well, I'm not German of course, but you are looking at a statement from the EKD from July 3, 2008 and the law went into effect on January 1, 2009.
There is an expertise by the EKD, which is published at:
http://www.ekd.de/download/ekd_texte_101.pdf

which deals with the religious and the implications of the new law which come from church law.

First of all, the EKD (protestant church of Germany which includes the lutheran churches) acknowledges that historically they had been against the civil marriage and only after seeing how it turned out accepted that the religious meaning of a wedding and of marriage are well represented in this legally binding ceremony.

So the opinion at the moment is that there is no church wedding without a civil marriage. But they see that there might be reasons why people want to marry but can't marry in a civil wedding. Most important reasons are finacial ones. Oh, this is not about Gustav and Carina but there are a lot of pensioners who live of a pension for widows/widowers who would loose this on remarrying. And who simply can't afford this. The meaning of the church is that in such cases there should be acknolegment of this situation. And while still there should be no "church wedding" as it is common, there should be other forms of blessings and worship to acknowledge that two people want to belong together as man and wife before God.

In the end, I guess it depends if you find a priest who is of the right opinion and who does marry those two if they want. Because the EKDdecided to go for: it's not possible but under certain circumstances.... Seeing how much is possible in the EKD when it comes to the conscience and decision of a priest, I personally tend to think that it is possible. (While it would be impossible in the Catholic Church if the Church was against it, but then it is possible in the Catholic Church and that is acknowledged by the EKD as well. As in: if they offer this to their members, we should at least offer soemthing similar....)

Hope this info helps. If anyone wants to know more but does not read German, please tell me and I'll check if this question is answered in the text, which is 28 pages long... So much more in it that I could write here.
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  #249  
Old 08-08-2011, 03:15 AM
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In the Church of England, we have a similar situation regarding "blessings", remarriage etc., but the CofE is the State church of England, therefore no civil ceremony is necessary. Ministers are also Registrars.
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  #250  
Old 08-08-2011, 07:36 AM
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In the Church of England, we have a similar situation regarding "blessings", remarriage etc., but the CofE is the State church of England, therefore no civil ceremony is necessary. Ministers are also Registrars.
Yep! -It's the same in Denmark and in the other Nordic countries! A church wedding is a legally valid institution of marriage! What you often see these days in Denmark is couples heading for the registry office when they're expecting a child etc. just to get the paperwork order. A church blessing may follow up to several years later when the couple can afford a big party ..... the white dream must be fullfilled!

viv
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  #251  
Old 08-08-2011, 10:37 AM
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.....
But they see that there might be reasons why people want to marry but can't marry in a civil wedding. Most important reasons are financial ones. Oh, this is not about Gustav and Carina but there are a lot of pensioners who live of a pension for widows/widowers who would lose this on remarrying. And who simply can't afford this. The meaning of the church is that in such cases there should be acknowledgement of this situation. And while still there should be no "church wedding" as it is common, there should be other forms of blessings and worship to acknowledge that two people want to belong together as man and wife before God.


That's really helpful, Kataryn. That's common in the US for exactly the reason that you state, pensioners who would lose a significant part of income (such as Social Security) if they marry, yet they desire their union to be blessed.
When Jo of Palatine first brought this up, it seems perfectly applicable for Gustav.
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Originally Posted by Renata4711 View Post
In the Church of England, we have a similar situation regarding "blessings", remarriage etc., but the CofE is the State church of England, therefore no civil ceremony is necessary. Ministers are also Registrars.


Isn't that what Sting and Trudy Skyler did?
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  #252  
Old 08-08-2011, 01:11 PM
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I agree with NotAPretender, that interview I felt was not flatering at all. She was outright slamming people but she did it in a passive-aggresive way. After I read that interview it is very hard to for me to like her.
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  #253  
Old 08-08-2011, 05:56 PM
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I also agree with Not A Pretender. Time has worked againt Carina and that interview that she gave, showed it. Prior to that, she was always smiling, attempting to be pleasing, amiable. That showed her true colors to all who read it and don't believe in sugar coating a situation. I don't think that she did it in a passive agressive manner as she appears to be rather aggressive and snarly at times.

There is probably much we do not know and the bottom line could very well be that Gustav wants to get rid of her but do not know how as she will spill the "beans". Time will tell.
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  #254  
Old 08-09-2011, 04:47 AM
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.....the EKD decided to go for: it's not possible but under certain circumstances.... Seeing how much is possible in the EKD when it comes to the conscience and decision of a priest, I personally tend to think that it is possible.
Ok, officially the EKD does not 'perform' a non-legally-binding 'church wedding'; it's up to the conscience of the individual Pfarrer(vicar) to make a commitment-ritual os some sort! ! Eine 'Gewissensfrage' ?

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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
.....Hope this info helps. If anyone wants to know more but does not read German, please tell me and I'll check if this question is answered in the text, which is 28 pages long... So much more in it that I could write here.
I do read German and I did pick up the stance of the EKD in 2008, before the law became effective in 2009! But I admit that I didn't read all 28 pages !

And a general comment: I don't see Gustav and Carina participating in a 'commitment-declaring' church ceremony! While they are free to act as individuals such a move would be vetoed by his parents, because of tradition - because of their relation to the Danish royal family. Besides, they are in effect aristocrats, and aristocrats don't always go by middle class standards and values. That's what tells them apart from the rest of us !
Again: I'm not saying that it couldn't happen - the Berleburgs have sported a few surprises in recent years - I'm just saying that I don't see it happening.

viv

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Originally Posted by michelleq View Post
I also agree with Not A Pretender.
Time has worked againt Carina and that interview that she gave,
showed it. Prior to that, she was always smiling, attempting to be
pleasing, amiable.
You're always showing your best sides till you're accepted by the
in-laws,right ? Anyway, I wouldn't be too hard on Carina! I agree
that the interview referred to earlier was a bit outspoken, BUT:
She's not the first 'Berleburg' to do so; if only you knew what
Prince Richard has told reporters from the DRF loyal press over
the years ! Off-hand I remember the following remarks:
- 'royalty are living in a bubble, they have no sense of reality'!
- 'Princess Benedikte was not very nice, she doesn't like illness'
(when Richard was suffering from cancer a few years ago).
plus several remarks about his being unwilling to attend royal events
and subject himself to court standards.

So there's a tradition for being outspoken in the family, except for
Princess Benedikte. She's has always tried to keep to the royal
appearences!

viv
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  #255  
Old 08-09-2011, 05:37 AM
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That's really helpful, Kataryn. That's common in the US for exactly the reason that you state, pensioners who would lose a significant part of income (such as Social Security) if they marry, yet they desire their union to be blessed.
When Jo of Palatine first brought this up, it seems perfectly applicable for Gustav.


Isn't that what Sting and Trudy Skyler did?
AFAIK Sting is a Roman Catholic, so I don't think he could have married Trudie in church, as his first marriage was not annulled, he just divorced his first wife Frances.
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  #256  
Old 08-09-2011, 02:50 PM
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Is it known what proportion of the family's wealth is tied up in the estate?
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  #257  
Old 08-20-2011, 05:40 PM
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Is it known what proportion of the family's wealth is tied up in the estate?
Not in detail! In connection with the crashed Gustav/Elvire de Rochefort prenup I remember reading that the majority of the family's assets were tied up in the estate. In case of a substantial divorce settlement parts of the estate would have be sold off. Something like that!
It was at the time the Berleburgs and the Rocheforts couldn't agree on what was an acceptable amount!

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  #258  
Old 11-06-2011, 05:30 AM
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What will happen with Prince Gustav and Carina ? Still no wedding announcement.
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  #259  
Old 12-03-2011, 10:35 PM
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It’s Christmas with Carina Axelsson Time! And, She Speaks Again! | The Royal Correspondent
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  #260  
Old 01-01-2012, 09:58 PM
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Recently,Gustav has earned a degree in Woodcarving.Really.

According to the German newspaper,Siegener Zeitung,Gustav took up woodcarving as a hobby and took it to the next step.

http://www.siegener-zeitung.de/a/525105
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