Prince Gustav and Carina Axelsson, Current Events & Discussion Part 2

[NotAPretender]

Originally Posted by efraimsdotter

I think I read once that Gustav's uncle insists that house rules be followed. That if the entire family had agreed upon it, Gustav could have kept the estate and still married Carina. The will in itself is horrible, but was written in another era. What makes me sick, though, is that someone in this time and age insists that it should be followed.

We have covered this already, earlier in the thread. Extensively. Exhaustively.

This is. Not. True.

Please provide a link or a source for this "uncle insisting," or perhaps read earlier in the thread where within the past week, Mueler has translated an article discussing the heirs. Why would an uncle without a stake in this, enforce the will? Think about that and see if it makes sense.

Princess Luna - again, I strongly recommend reading through the first thread and the second thread to gain a fuller understanding here. Gustav can marry anyone he chooses - any time! According to both his grandfather's will and House law, he has to marry someone with a certain background (also discussed extensively in this thread) or he loses his money and inheritance.

So he is not marrying Carina in order to keep his money.

May I just suggest again that those interested in this topic take the time to read through both of the threads covering this? We have had some really good process in all this, in understanding the issue.

[NotAPretender]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Eh, let's turn that one around.

- "We are in love, let's get married. Okay, that means I lose my estate and a huge fortune, and our children will never inherit said estate and a huge fortune. They'll have to settle for something less but at least we got married".
That sounds a little bit selfish in my eyes.

"Darling, if we marry and I lose my money, you will have to work for a living! I will have to work for a living! Our children will have to become educated taxpaying equals in society, earning a living!"

That sounds pretty...entitled.

Can't have it both ways.

Gustav knew that the one thing he had to do in this life was to marry "appropriately." And he failed at that. You could also argue that he's selfishly throwing away the legacy of his family over centuries by just stopping in place. You could also argue that the only reason he HAS the money at all is because of the careful estate planning of his grandfather. There's a strong case to be made for all of that loot being taken after WWII as the rightful spoils of war or to enormous inheritance taxes which existed as well, leaving baby Prince Richard destitute and the future Gustav in the position of having to, you know, go out and work for a living. How dreadful to contemplate, eh?

They've decided to just march in place, and you know what? They can. But what they can't and should do is whine about what is making them "not" marry. And to be honest, neither has whined about it for a long time, they've just accepted that this is how it is.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by NotAPretender

"Darling, if we marry and I lose my money, you will have to work for a living! I will have to work for a living! Our children will have to become educated taxpaying equals in society, earning a living!"

That sounds pretty...entitled.

Whatever it is, it's a lot of money you say goodbye to.....
And as you point out, their children will have to face the world in a much less financially secure way.

Not only that, your branch of the family, will no longer be in possession of Schloss Berleburg. You lost it, it's your fault.

Originally Posted by NotAPretender

Why would an uncle without a stake in this, enforce the will? Think about that and see if it makes sense.

Why not? Money and estates.
People have been known to take eachother to court for a lot less.

How is the relationship between the two branches of the family?

You'll find the interview here: Prince Gustav and Carina Axelsson, Current Events & Discussion Part 2

- And I think Carina has some... issues and that shines through in the interview.

For those who actually wish to read the actual interview and put it through a Google translation: http://www.box.net/shared/nuiydnxeko3x9n9zeuoo
http://www.box.net/shared/k4nk9sfzenaxxrly7cbs
http://www.box.net/shared/8s4fuv19l0sd3c6986s4
http://www.box.net/shared/cpa8y3ue0qp0f5uncz6d
http://www.box.net/shared/7dxlciyz4l6gu47zb5v5
- These links will cease working in a few days.
Important: First open the image in full screen. Then zoom in. Give the files a few seconds to load.

[jonc93]

Honestly though, this situation could have been resolved a long time ago! Germany is full of eligible noble women for Gustav to marry! His parents, knowing that he had to marry equal, should have sent him to the same schools and social events as other German nobles! But they let him lead a semi-normal life and he fell in love with a normal girl, it was bound to happen! He could of married equally had an heir, and probably led a happy life, if this was instilled in him at a young age!

[camelot23ca]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Eh, let's turn that one around.

- "We are in love, let's get married. Okay, that means I lose my estate and a huge fortune, and our children will never inherit said estate and a huge fortune. They'll have to settle for something less but at least we got married".
That sounds a little bit selfish in my eyes.

IF they want to get married or IF they want to have children and are letting the conditions of the will somehow dictate their choices - ie "we really want to do these things but don't because we'd lose our money" then that's sad for them personally, IMO, but not the sort of attitude that should inspire much sympathy. For one thing it's not like Gustav made this fortune by the sweat of his brow - it was handed to him on a platter, without him doing anything to earn it, at the expense of other members of his family who were discriminated against because of their gender and birth order. Natalie and Alexandra didn't meet the conditions of the will - they weren't the firstborn male. Oh well, that means they don't inherit. Gustav is in a similar situation - he's entitled to the estate only in so far as he fulfills the conditions, however idiotic, of the person who passed it on to him.

What I think is the most likely scenario, however, is that Gustav and Carina are fairly content with the way things are now. Not everyone sees a big difference between being in a long term committed relationship and being married. And not everyone WANTS children. Maybe they're both happy to enjoy each other and the lifestyle the estate affords them and to not worry overly much about who inherits after Gustav.

[NotAPretender]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Originally Posted by NotAPretender
Why would an uncle without a stake in this, enforce the will? Think about that and see if it makes sense.

Why not? Money and estates.
People have been known to take eachother to court for a lot less.

Because in order for the mythical "uncle" to take Gustav to court over enforcing the will, he would have to have standing. Since Gustav's uncles currently have not standing with regard to the will, Gustav's "uncle" would not be in a legal position to make such a challenge.

That's why I keep pressing for someone - anyone - to come up with a link to this whole fable of the "uncle" pressing for the will and some sort of family agreement that says "OK Gustav, do what you want." It's improbable; both the will and the House laws are immutable. Surely, there would have been some mention of a family as large and wealthy as this one, coming to an agreement where everyone just says "oh, no thank you, not for me!" to money and titles and huge swaths of land in favor of someone who just wasn't fulfilling his destiny. As you said, "people have been known to take each other to court for a lot less." To me, that makes it incredibly unlikely that everyone will step aside for Gustav and if they had, unlikely that it would not have made it to the press and into court documents so that someone - anyone - could link it here.

The "evil uncle" is simply an often-retold tale that someone wants to believe but has never been sourced. After all, if Gustav can't marry his true love, then there must be a force of evil preventing it! (It can't simply just be his choice to hang onto money, property, and titles instead of marrying!)

Originally Posted by Muhler

How is the relationship between the two branches of the family?

Prince Bernhart (Bernhard) attended the religious marriage of Princess Nathalie earlier this summer, so I imagine it's quite cordial.

[Muhler]

Thanks, NotAPretender.

I agree, no one will stand aside for the benefit of Gustav.

If relatives can into a fight over aunt Sophie's coffee table, imagine what they are prepared to do when it's about a huge estate.

I don't know about any evil uncles. And whether the motives of Gustav and Carina are sympathetic or not is actually beside the point. They are certainly understandable. I'd say that practically all who have a lot of money will go to extraordinary lengths to keep them and in most cases insure their heirs will get them when they die. No matter whether they earned the money themselves, inherited them or won the lottery.

Anyway, perhaps all will be unveiled in the next episode of Schloss Berleburg?
It's almost a heimatfilm. We only need some cute cows, traditional constumes and a few songs and we're there....

[NotAPretender]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Anyway, perhaps all will be unveiled in the next episode of Schloss Berleburg?
It's almost a heimatfilm. We only need some cute cows, traditional constumes and a few songs and we're there....

heh heh.

[Krisotter]

So I've spent many hours re-reading all the Prince Gustav and Carina posts regarding his grandfather's will in the last few weeks. I can't find a single post that linked to a copy of the will itself, and as the years passed it seems questions were somehow answered without linking to source materials.

The oldest example is the issue of "being noble" or "being of noble birth", which was raised as a question all the way back in 2006, and was answered a couple years later with a "four generations of nobility" explanation. Looking back, there is no source for this, it seems it was repeated often enough to be taken as reality.

Also under question more than 4 years ago was who would be the next heir after Prince Gustav if he forefeited the position of Head of House and ownership of the schloss et al to marry Carina, because no one had seen the will to verify if these stipulations were for all heirs, or only for the oldest son of Prince Richard. It was also wondered who would be the heir if Gustav simply did not have an heir, but died. Looking back, some have stated that Prince Bernhard SWH and others Prince Robin's eldest son, might be the potential heir. In reality, I still can't find a source that tells us what is written in the will, should the eldest son of Prince Richard die without heirs of his own body? If there is no language specifically to cover this that has been made public, would the inheritance of the schloss and belongings be covered under general German law, or, as in terms of the Head of House role (per the Hohenzollern and Leiningen precedents), under the House rules/laws?

In a follow-up to the House rules/laws, is this house one of the few where changes cannot be made in modern times to the house laws/rules? As the courts determined, such rules governing the "Head of" are a private matter and not part of public law, so why can the current Head of House not change those? I couldn't find that anywhere either.

Since my head is now spinning after reading all these posts front to back (and in some cases, over again) just let me know if somehow I missed those sources in all the back and forth.

[efraimsdotter]

Originally Posted by NotAPretender

We have covered this already, earlier in the thread. Extensively. Exhaustively.

This is. Not. True.

Please provide a link or a source for this "uncle insisting," or perhaps read earlier in the thread where within the past week, Mueler has translated an article discussing the heirs.

I have read Muhler's translation as well as the earlier threads. But nowhere can I find a basis for your saying "This is. Not. True." We simply do not know how the rest of the family views this matter. The comment about house rules, that they can be lifted if the living members of a family agree on it, made me think there could actually be some truth in the often repeated rumour about the uncle (or some other relative). Of course I do not know for sure.

Originally Posted by NotAPretender

Why would an uncle without a stake in this, enforce the will? Think about that and see if it makes sense."

I come from an old family with three large estates, and I have seen with my own eyes to what lengths some people can go to "protect" an estate from "unsuitable" heirs (ie female heirs or heirs planning to modernize), even if they have nothing go gain from it themselves. Simply because of sentimental reasons and a very strong attachment to the estate and family heritage. "Sense" is not always a prominent part of the picture in these situations.

I'm not saying this is the case in the Berleburg family, but since you asked me to "think", I'm offering my thoughts based on personal experience.

[BurberryBrit]

Hmmm, I think Gustav put himself and Carina in a bad situation. He was once engaged to a noblewoman so he was following the family plan at some point. As unjust as it is, he should have just married a noble woman a long time ago.

I mean, what happens if he simply decides to move on? If the relationship goes bad? There's no marriage certificate to hold Gustav. What does she have? She has no children (if that was her plan) and no husband. And it's not so easy to move on at 43. If they split, will she still be in league with the Danish RF?

[Sancia]

Originally Posted by BurberryBrit

Hmmm, I think Gustav put himself and Carina in a bad situation. He was once engaged to a noblewoman so he was following the family plan at some point. As unjust as it is, he should have just married a noble woman a long time ago.

I mean, what happens if he simply decides to move on? If the relationship goes bad? There's no marriage certificate to hold Gustav. What does she have? She has no children (if that was her plan) and no husband. And it's not so easy to move on at 43. If they split, will she still be in league with the Danish RF?

Elvire was not noble and she was catholic, so she didn't fulfil the will's conditions.

I don't know what to think about the couple. Does Gustav manage the estate? Estate managing can be a full-time job.
As for myself, I would be cross if I was bound by a so restrictive will and I was in love with a non-noble or non-protestant person. So I can't really blame them but I agree it is a very unconfortable position for both of them. Carina Axelsson and prince Gustav will probably have no children and it must be difficult to make a choice no one can criticize.

[NotAPretender]

1. Gustav manages the estate. He and his father have been involved with it extensively; Prince Richard has a degree in forestry. The estate has a Web site in which it discussed its animal and forestry husbandry as well as the permitting process for hunts, etc.

2. The will has never been published. We have covered this before in this thread.

3. There is no mention anywhere in the media, ever, of some mythical "uncle" pressing for the will to be enforced. So yes, you are right, there is no link for that. Because it has not occurred. "I heard" is not a valid statement to make. "I heard" that the Duchess of Windsor was a hermaphrodite, but that's not anywhere close to verifiable fact, supportable data, or direct quotation from a first hand source. So the "uncle-protesting" is a fable and is - not - true. (Those continuing to repeat "but I heard it" will continue to be asked to provide a link to an article in which this fantastical "uncle" makes the direct statement that he is going to enforce the will.)

4. Yes, they have made a choice. Whether or not it is to be criticized is whether or not it is being depicted by the couple themselves as some sort of tragic miscarriage of high-minded love, or the financially-based decision making of a clear-eyed pair. I tend to think of it as the latter, and refuse to be taken in by the misty-eyed romanticism of "thwarted love."

They are together. Living together. Enjoying all of the perquisites of the money that the grandfather's will has left for their use.

One can't scorn that which has provided a sumptuous living, unless one wishes to be viewed as hypocritical. If they wanted to take a stand against Nazi grandpop's viewpoint, what better way than to eschew the richness of life which is predicated on a Nazi will (if you have decided to ignore the House laws conventions and concentrate only on the "unjust" will?) Why not go ahead, marry Carina, and make some strongly worded statements about how you can, no longer in good conscience, benefit from the fortune which a Nazi carefully preserved? Walk away?

I'd stand up and cheer for that. But it's not going to happen.

Look, at the beginning, this couple's press agents worked overtime to make it seem terrible that the couple couldn't marry, then the story had to change that they could except they'd have to give up the money (to reflect actual facts.) Over time, the message has become more muted on that score. I was actually rather surprised that the usual pink press sources didn't publish their annual "poor Carina" article after the baptism of Mary & Fred's twins, or during the period of Princess Nathalie's religious wedding, but I'm guessing that the press agent's job has changed after Carina's disastrously angry interview from January of this year.

They must like how things are. They have everything that they can possibly want to make themselves happy.

If I were in their position and ardently desired a marriage and children, I'd follow the path partly laid out by Jo of Palentine earlier: a religious wedding with no legal standing, but secure in the knowlege of a marriage blessed by an institution in which I believed; and having a child who could not inherit but who would still be my child with my beloved husband, who I would raise to understand that he or she will be part of a remarkable and powerful network of connections and relatives, to be educated to pridefully move into the larger world and forge her/his own path. What's so terrible about that?

But that's not what they've chosen - they've chosen the riches and the title and if that is what makes them happy - then that's what makes them happy! It's not some hankie-twisting tragedy.....goodness knows.

[camelot23ca]

Originally Posted by NotAPretender

The interview is found earlier in the thread. And there wasn't a kind word about anyone.

She actually spoke kindly about the Danish royals and Princess Benedicte, (and Gustav, but I guess I'd take that as a given). You also refer to the interview as "disasterously angry"... is there a second interview Carina has given that I'm not aware of? Because I'm finding it difficult to see where you're coming from if we're speaking of the same interview.

[Sancia]

Originally Posted by NotAPretender

1. Gustav manages the estate. He and his father have been involved with it extensively; Prince Richard has a degree in forestry. The estate has a Web site in which it discussed its animal and forestry husbandry as well as the permitting process for hunts, etc.

Thanks for the answer. I call this a job, managing such an estate is not just a hobby.

About the rest of your post, I would agree if the estate had been made and the lands united by the nazi grandpa. But as it is an ancestral estate, the "nazi" care of it is not as important.
If they married, could there be a large donation from prince Richard which would leave the estate or a huge part of the estate to his son and daughter-in-law, to get round the will?

[FasterB]

Originally Posted by Sancia

If they married, could there be a large donation from prince Richard which would leave the estate or a huge part of the estate to his son and daughter-in-law, to get round the will?

No, that could not happen, because Prince Richard has never owned the estate. The estate went directly from "the nazigrandfather" to the firstborn son of Prince Richard.
Which means that the estate has been Prince Gustav´s from he was born. Prince Richard is/was just managing it on behalf of Prince Gustav.

[Sancia]

Originally Posted by FasterB

No, that could not happen, because Prince Richard has never owned the estate. The estate went directly from "the nazigrandfather" to the firstborn son of Prince Richard.
Which means that the estate has been Prince Gustav´s from he was born. Prince Richard is/was just managing it on behalf of Prince Gustav.

I didn't know that. That is a very weird situation and a very weird decision from prince Gustav Albrecht.

[FasterB]

Originally Posted by Sancia

I didn't know that. That is a very weird situation and a very weird decision from prince Gustav Albrecht.

No, it wasn´t weird back in those days. IIRC, then it had something to do with the tax you pay when you inherit something and that that smount could be less with the estate going to an unborn grandson than to the living son.

[Sancia]

Originally Posted by FasterB

No, it wasn´t weird back in those days. IIRC, then it had something to do with the tax you pay when you inherit something and that that smount could be less with the estate going to an unborn grandson than to the living son.

Ok. I don't think it would have been possible here so that is why it sounded weird for me.

[NotAPretender]

Originally Posted by camelot23ca

She actually spoke kindly about the Danish royals and Princess Benedicte, (and Gustav, but I guess I'd take that as a given). You also refer to the interview as "disasterously angry"... is there a second interview Carina has given that I'm not aware of? Because I'm finding it difficult to see where you're coming from if we're speaking of the same interview.

Then we must be looking at a different interview. In the one that I read, Carina takes a slam at the "closed" world of dressage (Nathalie,) the dilapidated state of the rest of the castle (slam at Benedikt,) indicates that her generation (hers and Gustav's) could not spend the way that previous ones did (slam at Richard & Benedikt) and discusses Richard's temper with snide remarks about his "special" nature.

She spoke of her friendship with the Danish royals in terms of how close she and the Crown Princely couple were, but that was more in a manner of constrasting her relationship with R & B, which she then goes on to describe in the terms I've just mentioned.

It was a very testy interview, and the interviewer offered her several options to soften her language that she did not take.

One thing that did emerge from the interview was that she was adamant that she just didn't give a toss if they married or not, that for her, being herself was enough and that it was going to have to be enough for everyone else, too. It seems to me that this couple has gone through all the permutations of this situation quite thoroughly and have consciously and repeatedly confirmed this course of action for themselves. They've weighed it all and this is where they are and what they are.

It's only "odd" because for some reason, in the eyes of some here, marriage and children seem to be the only course of action that is "right."

They're grooving on each other even knowing all the potential outcomes. And that should be enough.