New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024

[Blog Real]

I wonder if in the future Prince Nikolai's wife and Prince Felix's wife will have the title of Princess?

 

[Muhler]

I wonder if in the future Prince Nikolai's wife and Prince Felix's wife will have the title of Princess?

Technically they are entitled to get the title of princess, and so are any children.
However that is up to the monarch.
So it is very likely that Nikolai and Felix - and Henrik, will take the title of say Count de Montepezat and drop their princely title upon marriage. So we avoid ending up having flocks of royals roaming streets.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I wonder if in the future Prince Nikolai's wife and Prince Felix's wife will have the title of Princess?

Technically they are entitled to get the title of princess, and so are any children.
However that is up to the monarch.
So it is very likely that Nikolai and Felix - and Henrik, will take the title of say Count de Montepezat and drop their princely title upon marriage. So we avoid ending up having flocks of royals roaming streets.

It is established convention that the wife and unmarried children of a prince with a place in the order of succession have the title princess or prince, but to the best of my knowledge it is not formalized in statute law.

I am not sure if Denmark has developed common law in regards to royal titles, as in the UK. It seems not to be the case, as it apparently took the Queen some time to decide that Marie Cavallier would take the title of princess upon marriage. Quoting from a summary of Prince Joachim and Marie Cavallier's press conference held in 2007:

Queen Margrethe has only recently decided Marie will have the title of princess. Joachim said this was not his decision to make, but another's (meaning the Queen).​

https://danishroyalwatchers.blogspot.com/2007/10/joachim-marie-press-conference.html

 

[Muhler]

It is established convention that the wife and unmarried children of a prince with a place in the order of succession have the title princess or prince, but to the best of my knowledge it is not formalized in statute law.

I am not sure if Denmark has developed common law in regards to royal titles, as in the UK. It seems not to be the case, as it apparently took the Queen some time to decide that Marie Cavallier would take the title of princess upon marriage. Quoting from a summary of Prince Joachim and Marie Cavallier's press conference held in 2007:

Queen Margrethe has only recently decided Marie will have the title of princess. Joachim said this was not his decision to make, but another's (meaning the Queen).​

https://danishroyalwatchers.blogspot.com/2007/10/joachim-marie-press-conference.html

Yes, the only title the monarch has no control over, is the title of Crown Prince/ss, because the person holding that title has a specific status mention in the Law of Succession and in the Constitution.

In theory QMII could have decided not grant Mary the title of Crown Princess, but that would be most sensational!

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Yes, the only title the monarch has no control over, is the title of Crown Prince/ss, because the person holding that title has a specific status mention in the Law of Succession and in the Constitution.

The title of Crown Prince/ss is not mentioned in the Law of Succession or in the Constitution, but the term tronfølgeren (heir to the throne) is mentioned in Art. 7 of the Constitution.

https://www.ft.dk/da/dokumenter/bes...likationer/grundloven/danmarks-riges-grundlov
https://www.retsinformation.dk/eli/lta/1953/169

 

[Muhler]

The title of Crown Prince/ss is not mentioned in the Law of Succession or in the Constitution, but the term tronfølgeren (heir to the throne) is mentioned in Art. 7 of the Constitution.

https://www.ft.dk/da/dokumenter/bes...likationer/grundloven/danmarks-riges-grundlov
https://www.retsinformation.dk/eli/lta/1953/169

Correct and that's the word I should have used.

There are a number of very specific titles for the Tronfølger:
Kronprinsen (The Crown Prince because there can only be one. And now also Kronprinsessen) who is (now) the oldest child of the monarch regardless of gender.
Arveprinsen, who is a relative who is the nearest in line for the throne after the monarch.
Tronarvingen, who is the heir to the throne. Which pedantically speaking is not exactly the same as Tronfølgeren, which simply means the next to sit on the throne. A Tronfølger can in contrast to an (bloodline) heir be appointed by the Parliament, if there are no one else left in the Line of Succession. - They covered everything when they wrote down these paragraphs!
But of course that's for nerds.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Would it not be possible for Countess Athena of Monpezat not to take her husbands name and simply keep her maiden name.

The tricky issue is that if she were to lose her royal status at (or after) marriage to the hypothetical Mr. Schmidt-Jensen, she would have no maiden name to keep, as I see it.

My understanding is that in the nobility, the unmarried daughter of (for example) a Count of Rosenborg carries the title Countess (Komtesse) and the surname "of Rosenborg". According to the rules of the house of nobility (are the rules set in custom or law?), a woman automatically receives her husband's rank and title. Once married to a plain Mr., she is a plain Mrs. But according to the civil laws, she is entitled to retain her surname, of Rosenborg.

However, all of the current Countesses of Monpezat are members of the Royal House who do not legally carry a surname. It is written clearly in the press release which made Prince Henrik's marital male-line descendants Count and Countesses of Monpezat that "komtesse af Monpezat" is a title. For Isabella, Josephine, and Athena, and their brothers and fathers, "of Monpezat" is part of their title rather than their surname.

This legal situation could give rise to some interesting complications. For example, it would appear that if Prince Nikolai had a child out of wedlock, the child would be untitled according to the current rules of the nobility and the royal house and would presumably need a surname. But Prince Nikolai would have no legal surname to transmit to his child. (There would be other options in the naming law, including the mother's surname.)

Here is a link to the text of the press release of April 30 2008, which Somebody's source posted in image form.



Pressemeddelelse

Amalienborg, den 30. april 2008

Hendes Majestæt Dronningen har besluttet, at Hans Kongelige Højhed Kronprinsen samt Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Joachim tillægges titel af ’greve af Monpezat’. Hendes Kongelige Højhed Kronprinsesse Mary samt Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Joachims kommende ægtefælle frk. Marie Cavallier vil som følge heraf føre titlen ’grevinde af Monpezat’.

Titlen føres endvidere af efterkommere født i lovligt ægteskab, i overensstemmelse med de almindelige regler, der gælder herom, hvilket vil sige, at titlen ’greve af Monpezat’ videreføres af mandlige descendenter, medens kvindelige descendenter fører titlen ’komtesse af Monpezat’.

Der er tale om en ny, yderligere titel der kan anvendes i tilknytning til de eksisterende. Titlen berører ikke de nugældende prædikater. Navn og titel vil herefter i kort form eksempelvis kunne være:

. Hans Kongelige Højhed Kronprins Frederik, greve af Monpezat
. Hendes Kongelige Højhed Kronprinsesse Mary, grevinde af Monpezat
. Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Christian, greve af Monpezat
. Hendes Kongelige Højhed Prinsesse Isabella, komtesse af Monpezat

Eventuelle henvendelser på denne pressemeddelelse bedes rettet til Kabinetssekretariatet på telefon 3340 2484.


Henning Fode
Hendes Majestæt Dronningens Kabinetssekretær

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Aren't particles standard in a noble surname? Particles like af, von, and de are integrated parts of family names. This is different to the particle (or is it a preposition?) til (comparable with German zu) to denote his or her place of residence, for example;

Prins Joachim til Denmark (denotes his rank as a Prince of Denmark)

Greve af Monpezat (noble title in combination with family name).

 

[JR76]

Aren't particles standard in a noble surname? Particles like af, von, and de are integrated parts of family names. This is different to the particle (or is it a preposition?) til (comparable with German zu) to denote his or her place of residence, for example;

Prins Joachim til Denmark (denotes his rank as a Prince of Denmark)

Greve af Monpezat (noble title in combination with family name).

Many Scandinavian noble families lack particles in their surnames. Danish examples are Rosenkrantz, Knuth, , Danneskiold-Samsøe etc... Some originally German families like the Rantzau and Schack have even lost their particles after centuries in Denmark.

 

[Kataryn]

Technically they are entitled to get the title of princess, and so are any children.
However that is up to the monarch.
So it is very likely that Nikolai and Felix - and Henrik, will take the title of say Count de Montepezat and drop their princely title upon marriage. So we avoid ending up having flocks of royals roaming streets.

But wouldn't that appear as a slight to religion? That unmarried men (eventually with a girlfriend) are princes but as soon as they marry (in church) said girlfriend, both are suddenly only Greve and Grevinde? That's not what I wish for as a Danish church official. But that their children could only be a greve and a komtesse should be rather normal. Just like in Germany (not a monarchy, though, and title are only part of the family name) members of younger branches of families which have the right to call themselves prince/princess just use the family name. And obviously it was intended in Denmark to allow for the name of Monpezat be used as a family name after prince Henrik, while the queen had none.


On a different note: as SHSG is not a name but just a derivation of the place the family used to own, so just a dynastic term, could prince Charles of the UK as son of Philip SHSG, prince of Greece and Denmark, decided that from him onwards, the House of Windsor consists now of the House of SCG (the queen) and of SHSG (his father)? (He is a historian, I mean...)

 

[Tatiana Maria]

But wouldn't that appear as a slight to religion? That unmarried men (eventually with a girlfriend) are princes but as soon as they marry (in church) said girlfriend, both are suddenly only Greve and Grevinde? That's not what I wish for as a Danish church official. But that their children could only be a greve and a komtesse should be rather normal.

If Nikolai and his brothers remained princes but their children were only countesses and counts, it would actually be a change from the current normal. For centuries the children born to Princes to Denmark have been Princes and Princesses to/of Denmark.

On a different note: as SHSG is not a name but just a derivation of the place the family used to own, so just a dynastic term, could prince Charles of the UK as son of Philip SHSG, prince of Greece and Denmark, decided that from him onwards, the House of Windsor consists now of the House of SCG (the queen) and of SHSG (his father)? (He is a historian, I mean...)

Moved to here:
Questions about British Styles and Titles

 

[Prinsara]

If Nikolai and his brothers remained princes but their children were only countesses and counts, it would actually be a change from the current normal. For centuries the children born to Princes to Denmark have been Princes and Princesses to/of Denmark.

…as long as they were born in equal marriages. Given that the concept tends not to apply in the modern world, especially for extant monarchies who have to deal with the current public, it’s hard to say who gets to be or remain “Prince/ss” or not.

Perhaps that’s why Margrethe has basically avoided the issue, other than approving her sons’ and would-have stripped her cousin.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

If Nikolai and his brothers remained princes but their children were only countesses and counts, it would actually be a change from the current normal. For centuries the children born to Princes to Denmark have been Princes and Princesses to/of Denmark.

…as long as they were born in equal marriages. [...]

All were born from equal marriages as Princes of Denmark who made unequal marriages immediately ceased to be Princes of Denmark upon the marriage. King Christian X allowed princes who married unequally to retain the style of HH Prince minus the territorial designation, but King Frederik IX removed those who married during his reign of all royal titles.

 

[iceflower]

The Palace has released an update to the changes of 2008 today, September 28:


** kongehuset: Changes in titles and forms of address in the Royal Family **

(..) as of 1 January 2023, His Royal Highness Prince Joachim’s descendants can only use their titles as counts and countess of Monpezat, as the titles of prince and princess that they have held up until now will be discontinued. Prince Joachim’s descendants will thus have to be addressed as excellencies in the future. (..) With her decision, Her Majesty The Queen wishes to create the framework for the four grandchildren to be able to shape their own lives to a much greater extent without being limited by the special considerations and duties that a formal affiliation with the Royal House of Denmark as an institution involves.

All four grandchildren maintain their places in the order of succession.

 

[Somebody]

That's quite a decision but especially with the modelling careers of the eldest grandsons it does make sense to create a bit more distance. And in doing so, the Danish RF ends up a lot like the Dutch where only the children of the monarch or direct heirs are princes and princesses - and the others in male line descendance are count and countess. Also much better that this decision is been made by queen Margrethe than to wait for Frederik to do so.

It will be interesting to see what happens to any children the sisters of the heirs (Isabella and Josephine in Denmark and Alexia and Ariane in the Netherlands) will have.

 

[An Ard Ri]

I wonder brought about this decision?

 

[Blog Real]

It's an interesting but sensible decision. It's interesting that Prince Joachim's sons no longer have the titles of princes. I ask if Prince Joachim will agree with this decision and if he also had the influence to make it happen.

Billed Bladet spoke to Countess Alexandra's secretary who says they are all saddened and shocked by the Royal Household's decision to withdraw the titles of princes from Prince Joachim's children.

https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...-af-boernenes-titler-vi-som-foraeldre-er-dybt

 

[Somebody]

I wonder brought about this decision?

I assume it has been contemplated for a long time but the timing after her 50-year reign celebrations are over and shortly after her friend and fellow monarch passed away - highlighting the importance of ensuring a good transition and not letting Frederik deal with it - makes this a logical monent to do so.

It is much easier for Margrethe to strip her grandchildren of these titles than to have Frederik strip them from his nephews and niece. I don't think anyone in their sound mind would accuse Margrethe of loving these grandchildren less than the other half and playing favorites with Frederik's children, while people might have thought Frederik to be unkind etc. if he did the same thing to his brother's children as his mother is doing now.

I wonder if in the future Prince Nikolai's wife and Prince Felix's wife will have the title of Princess?

Looks like we know the answer now. No, they will be countesses of Monpezat but not princesses of Denmark.

If Nikolai intends to marry soon (which I don't expect but who knows) that would also be a good reason to speed up the decision to let them continue their lives as counts of Monpezat.

Technically they are entitled to get the title of princess, and so are any children.
However that is up to the monarch.
So it is very likely that Nikolai and Felix - and Henrik, will take the title of say Count de Montepezat and drop their princely title upon marriage. So we avoid ending up having flocks of royals roaming streets.

Good guess, except for the queen calling the shots ahead of any marriage they might contemplate.

Billed Bladet spoke to Countess Alexandra's secretary who says they are all saddened and shocked by the Royal Household's decision to withdraw the titles of princes from Prince Joachim's children.

https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...-af-boernenes-titler-vi-som-foraeldre-er-dybt

Wow, and she has the audacity to make that public... Alexandra's secretary claims that all three parents are deeply shocked by this decision. And big words about loss of identity are being used.

We are all confused by the decision.*We are saddened and in shock.*This comes like a bolt from the blue.*The children feel ostracized.*They cannot understand why their identity is being taken away from them.*

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It is exactly alike the Dutch situation where the offspring of the younger sons of Queen Beatrix have the hereditary title graaf (gravin) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg and the form of address hooggeboren heer (vrouwe) - which is only used in formal correspondence.

Optically it distances them from the Royal House and that is indeed an advantage in pursuing an own life and career.

 

[norwegianne]

The timing is really odd. It would have made more sense to do it when they first added the Monpezat-titles, or when the kids applied for permission to marry. Not just randomly in a jubilee year.

But it may well be that Margrethe don’t want Frederik to deal with potential backlash over decisions when he takes over.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

For many years, it seemed the Queen was moving in the opposite direction from other royal houses in Europe in allowing Prince Nikolai to use the title HH Prince to/of Denmark to promote his modeling career. Clearly HM has had a change of heart, because the announcement (see iceflower's link) cites the need for her grandchildren to earn their own money as the driving force behind the title reform.

"In May 2016, it was also announced that His Royal Highness Prince Christian, as the only one of The Queen’s grandchildren, is expected to receive an annuity from the state as an adult.

As a natural extension of this, Her Majesty has decided [...] With her decision, Her Majesty The Queen wishes to create the framework for the four grandchildren to be able to shape their own lives to a much greater extent without being limited by the special considerations and duties that a formal affiliation with the Royal House of Denmark as an institution involves."​

I think this old post by Muhler explains very well why it is better for the monarchy to have royal relatives (with future spouses) marketing their for-profit business ventures as non-royals than as royals.

To the general public who are not that well versed in titles, there is no real distinction between HH and HRH. - Nikolai is Prince ergo he is a full royal. That also applies to segments of the press, especially when they want to...

Nikolai can very much be compared to Princess Elisabeth I think.
She's never married or had any children, so that "issue" ends with her. And she had a career in the Foreign Ministry, sometimes being deployed abroad. That's an acceptable and safe career for an "inactive" royal. Not controversial and out of sight and out of mind.
And if need be I suppose all Joachim's children can be parked away safely like that. Beforehand younger royals had a career in the military or like Elisabeth became a civil servant or even went into the church or in some cases had a manor somewhere. - Pretty much the traditional career choices for younger siblings of the upper class.
But that does put limitations on their choice of careers.
Nothing that is remotely political. Nothing that brings him into conflict with Danish interests or with segments of the population is acceptable, so that may rule out him being a top executive in a private business. And so on.

The problem is also that the DRF has to neutral in almost every aspect. That also includes inactive members. Otherwise there is a very good chance of that detracting from the monarchy itself. - That sentiment is admittedly sometimes bordering on being hysterical here in DK, but it's there.
It's easier and simpler to renounce the title and just be a count. For Nikolai himself it won't make that big a difference in relation to the DRF. He'll still be invited for family events and such, but not standing with his cousins. I think he'll survive that. It's not like he's being kicked out of a palace or anything like that.

So if Nikolai and his siblings wish to retain their titles as royals and have a career of their own it's better if they settle and work outside DK.

That I think applies to the Nordic monarchies. They have different traditions in the Benelux countries, and yet, even there there have been controversies and scandals when secondary royals have messed things up.

So again: If Nikolai is inactive, it would IMO be simpler for him to officially opt out of the royal roadshow.

We debated something similar in regards to Madeleine when she married. I think she would get much less criticism and be much more free (and so would her husband BTW) had she renounced her royal title when she married.
Now she is criticized for not being active enough, for not being in Sweden enough and so on...

This line in the announcement seems a bit sloppily worded, unless it is intended that literally all descendants of Prince Joachim (through males and females, in or out of wedlock) will be addressed as Excellencies:

"Prince Joachim’s descendants will thus have to be addressed as excellencies in the future."​

Only the former princes (not former princess Dagmar) who became Counts of Rosenborg have been addressed as Excellencies. The address does not extend to their wives or descendants.



I like that the change will be implemented on January 1; it will make it easier to remember the date.

Wow, and she has the audacity to make that public... Alexandra's secretary claims that all three parents are deeply shocked by this decision. And big words about loss of identity are being used.

We are all confused by the decision.*We are saddened and in shock.*This comes like a bolt from the blue.*The children feel ostracized.*They cannot understand why their identity is being taken away from them.*

That's a strong statement indeed. But I suppose the Queen can be grateful that at least there is no allegation of racism (Nikolai and Felix being the first biracial descendants of the family) in the statement.

I wonder if the family discord is why the announcement expressly stated

"The Queen’s decision is in line with similar adjustments that other royal houses have made in various ways in recent years."​

 

[muriel]

Billed Bladet spoke to Countess Alexandra's secretary who says they are all saddened and shocked by the Royal Household's decision to withdraw the titles of princes from Prince Joachim's children.

https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...-af-boernenes-titler-vi-som-foraeldre-er-dybt

Now that was clearly not a very smart move on Alexandra's part to authorise such a comment being amde.

 

[Muhler]

My first reaction, without having read the news elsewhere, is that it's no big surprise to me.

I wonder if it's Joachim who requested it?
Because being royals can indeed be a hindrance for whatever life and career - and mistakes - they will have.

And it's not like QMII and the other full members of the DRF will kick them out on the curb to freeze in the rain.

I did however expect they would lose their titles only upon marriage.
The timing does surprise me a little bit, because Nikolai and Felix are still being educated and in immediate danger of getting married.
Henrik and Athene still goes to school.
And there are no other significant things scheduled and no public debate that warrants this action being taken right now.

I cannot help wonder if there are other announcements coming up...

One thought that springs to mind is that Nikolai's sweetheart Benedikte is in "happy circumstances."
Another thought is that QMII retires (not necessarily abdicating, but "only" retiring) from next year and everything is now in the hands of M&F, including whatever overhauls of the court and the DRF they wish to make.

Billed Bladet spoke to Countess Alexandra's secretary who says they are all saddened and shocked by the Royal Household's decision to withdraw the titles of princes from Prince Joachim's children.

https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...-af-boernenes-titler-vi-som-foraeldre-er-dybt

Okay!!

That is indeed very odd!!

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The timing is really odd. It would have made more sense to do it when they first added the Monpezat-titles, or when the kids applied for permission to marry. Not just randomly in a jubilee year.

I did however expect they would lose their titles only upon marriage.
The timing does surprise me a little bit, because Nikolai and Felix are still being educated and in immediate danger of getting married.
Henrik and Athene still goes to school.
And there are no other significant things scheduled and no public debate that warrants this action being taken right now.

I cannot help wonder if there are other announcements coming up...

One thought that springs to mind is that Nikolai's sweetheart Benedikte is in "happy circumstances."
Another thought is that QMII retires (not necessarily abdicating, but "only" retiring) from next year and everything is now in the hands of M&F, including whatever overhauls of the court and the DRF they wish to make.

Yes, it would have been more in keeping with tradition to remove the children from the Royal House, the line of succession, and their royal titles upon marriage, as happened with other princes and one princess. But in this day and age, that might run the risk of being perceived as a move directed against the specific couple getting married.

In retrospect, it would have been best for them not to have been prince and princess at birth.

 

[Nordic]

Billed Bladet spoke to Countess Alexandra's secretary who says they are all saddened and shocked by the Royal Household's decision to withdraw the titles of princes from Prince Joachim's children.
]

https://www.bt.dk/royale/live-dronningen-fratager-prins-joachims-boern-deres-titler

"According to the Royal Household's head of communications, Lene Balleby, Prince Joachim has known since May 5 that his children would lose their titles.

- The decision has taken various forms along the way, but Prince Joachim has been involved and briefed throughout the process."

 

[Biri]

So they are now Count Nikolai, Count Felix, Count Henrik and Countess Athena?

 

[Stefan]

So they are now Count Nikolai, Count Felix, Count Henrik and Countess Athena?

No they are still Prince/Princess. It will change on 01.01.2023.

 

[Sister Morphine]

It will be interesting to see what happens to any children the sisters of the heirs (Isabella and Josephine in Denmark and Alexia and Ariane in the Netherlands) will have.

Considering children can't inherit titles/styles from their mother (unless their mother is the reigning sovereign), their children won't have titles unless their husbands are granted some kind of nobility title when they marry.

So, whoever HRH Princess Isabella marries, for example, will be Master/Miss (or the Danish equivalent) and then their father's last name.

Considering it's 2022, I can see more monarchies doing this, eventually. The days of three or four generations of titled people running around are long gone. You have the sovereign, the sovereign's children, and then the heir's children. That's it. You're still a part of the family, but the title and style of HRH Prince/Princess is restricted to just the direct line of succession.

 

[suztav]

JMHO -- but, I think this is a very pragmatic decision on the part of QMII. She sees the world for what it is and has observed the tensions in the British royal family over titles.

The Dutch royals do this.

It's the right thing to do.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Considering children can't inherit titles/styles from their mother (unless their mother is the reigning sovereign), their children won't have titles unless their husbands are granted some kind of nobility title when they marry.

So, whoever HRH Princess Isabella marries, for example, will be Master/Miss (or the Danish equivalent) and then their father's last name.

There is nothing to prevent the monarch (Denmark) or the government (the Netherlands) from granting a comital title to members of the Royal House.

As for female-line grandchildren having to be "Master/Miss", I presume you are aware that Princess Margrethe's husband and children were Princes of/to Denmark from marriage/birth, Princess Benedikte's husband was offered the title of Prince of Denmark and succession rights for his children if he would agree to raise his children in Denmark (which he refused), and Princess Margriet's children are Princes of Orange-Nassau.