Members Of The Royal Family Line of Succession - broadest sense

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by michelleq

Can the Queen, or the next ruler, declare the Berleburg Children HH, Prince/Princess of Denmark?

The children of HRH Princess Benedikte are not princes either til or af Danmark, because when she married in 1968, her late father, King Frederick IX decreed that in order for them to become princes of Denmark and acquire succession rights, they would need to be raised in Denmark. This requirement was not met.

Of note, the 1953 Succession Act became part of the Constitution of Denmark. The Act specifies among other things that "when approving a marriage, the monarch can impose conditions that must be met in order for any resulting offspring to have succession rights."

Therefore, it seems that a decree by the current monarch would not be able to reverse the situation with HRH Princess Benedikte's children. Currently, only an amendment to the Act could achieve that which appears to be an elaborate process and not justified since there are plenty of people already available to inherit this old and prestigious Throne.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by hrhcp

The "official window of Denmark":

Denmark - Official website of Denmark

says



I find it interesting that it makes reference to a "narrow sense".

Who are all the members of the Royal House are in a "wider sense" ?
And who ranks above whom ?

Who is "Princess Elizabeth", and how is she related to the Queen ?

Actually, there is no such thing as narrow, wide, or wider sense, as far as the Danish Constitution is concerned vis-a-vis the royal family. Legally and constitutionally, the Royal House (synonymous with the Royal Family, RF) consists only of the sovereign and her/his spouse, any living consort of a deceased monarch (as was the case with HM Queen Ingrid after King Frederick's death), and those members who have rights of succession and as such hold rank and title of prince/princess, along with their spouses. Thus HRH Princess Benedikte and her husband are members of the RF.
Importantly, according to the 1953 Succession Act, all those relatives who have no rights of succession, are not members of the Royal Family. Thus, HRH Princess Benedikte's children who have no Danish rank and title, are not members of the RF. Likewise, the former queen of Greece, her husband and her children have no Danish rank or title and are not members of the RF.

However, queen Anne-Marie, king Constantine, their children and the children of Princess Benedikte are still very close relatives of The Queen and members of her family, the term family considered here only in a private/personal sense. Thus, when HM The Queen uses the expression "in a narrow sense", she is just being polite, not meaning to alienate her sister queen Anne-Marie, former queen of the Hellenes and her children as well as the children of Princess Benedikte.

[MargreteI]

Originally Posted by Philippe Egalite'

Because they were all born after 1953, the children of Constantine and Anne-Marie are not princes or princesses of Denmark in any way, type or form, not even by courtesy. In fact, it would be disrespectful of the Constitution of Denmark for anyone to address them as such.

You are very wrong. They indeed carry a genuine title as Prince and Princess of Denmark and so does all the children.

2000-01, 1. samling - Svar på § 20-spørgsmål: Om kong Konstantin har dansk pas.

Im sorry, but when the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and The Ministry of Justice say so and it is in plain writing on the Parliaments website, as well as on the Royal Familys website, then obviously you can not be correct.

There really isn't all that much room for discussion.
.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by MargreteI

You are very wrong. They indeed carry a genuine title as Prince and Princess of Denmark and so does all the children.

2000-01, 1. samling - Svar på § 20-spørgsmål: Om kong Konstantin har dansk pas.

Im sorry, but when the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and The Ministry of Justice say so and it is in plain writing on the Parliaments website, as well as on the Royal Familys website, then obviously you can not be correct.

There really isn't all that much room for discussion.
.

If you go back to post #61, you will see that I do state that queen Anne-Marie and king Constantine are still and shall remain for life princess and prince, respectively, but af Danmark and not til Danmark. The af Danmark prince or princess is a courtesy, but not constitutionally backed title. This is made crystal-clear even in the official website of the Danish Monarchy, where they are not included as members of the Royal House per se, that is, as dynasts with rights of succession to the Danish Throne.

In view of the fact that HRH princess Benedikte married a non-ruling foreign dynast, she retained her dynastic rights to the throne and her chidlren could have become princes til Danmark if the preconditions laid out by the late king Frederik on her marriage were met, but they weren't.

On the other hand, then HRH princess Anne-Marie lost upon her marriage her dynastic rights because she married a ruling foreign dynast, as per the late king Frederik's decision (1964) and this applies also to her descendants.
In the hypothetical setting that the 1953 Succession Act had not been effected, queen Anne-Marie's children would have right to the throne, albeit remote, but through their father, king Constantine who indeed is agnatic, direct, descendant (great-great-grandson) of king Christian IX and was born (1940)prince til Danmark.
However, because the 1953 Succession Act limits the succession rights to descdendants of king Christian X and queen Alexandrine, king Constantine lost his rights to the throne effective 1953, at which point he ceased to be prince til Danmark, but remains since as prince af Danmark (by courtesy).

Therefore, like princess Benedikte's children, the offsprings of queen Anne-Marie and king Constantine are not princes or princesses either til or af Danmark.

The discussion you quote is about king Constantine's obtaining a diplomatic passport as a Dane. And, indeed, he has rights to be a Dane which stem from his descent from Christian IX and the fact that he was born before the 1953 Succession Act came into effect. So, although he has lost his succession rights, he is still a prince af Danmark and a Dane. By virtue of this fact, his children could be Danes also, but there is a difference between being a Dane or having the right to become naturalized as a Dane and having rights to the throne, that is, be princes til Danmark.

And, since most of us here are not Danish speakers, I would deeply appreciate it if you translated the text of the reference so that the reader can see for and by himself.

[MargreteI]

Translation of the link given, which is a §20 question posed in parliament to the Minister of Justice :

Spm. nr. S 3937

Anne Baastrup (SF/Socialistic Peoples Party, a non-royal republican party):

»Can the Minister confirm that (King) Konstantin has a danish passport, and if so, how he got it ?«

Reason for raising the question :
We refer to the fact that Konstantin is not a danish citizen and the fact that his wife has renounced her claim to the throne, as to why Konstantin is not a member of the Royal Family.

Answer (19/9 01)

Minister of Justice (Frank Jensen):

The Ministry of Justice has in order to answer the question requested the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for a statement.

When this statement is present i will revert to this matter.

Supplementing answer (12/10 01)

Minister of Justice (Frank Jensen):

The Ministry of Justice has requested a statement from the Ministry of Justice to be used in answering this question.

It appear from the statement, that Ministry of Foreign Affairs, based on Directions for the Foreign Service, has complied with a request to issue diplomat passports to His Majesty King Konstantin, since members of the Greek Royal Family, in direct liniar line descrend from King Cristian IX and Queen Louise, which means they are decrendants of King George I (born Prince Vilhelm to Denmark), carries the title Prince, respectively Princess, of Greece and Denmark.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

This also explain why all King Konstantins children, as well as his grandchildren after Pavlos are indeed still Princess of Denmark. Marie Chantal however is not, even if married to Pavlos, since she is not a decrendants of George I. Alexias kids arent eighter since a Princess can not pass her title to
her children.

It is not coursey only. It is indeed a real title founded in historic reaons. How much it is actually worth in a whole other thing, but real it is.

You misunderstand the Succession Act and its meaning. It does not regulate who belongs to the Royal Family or not. Neighter does it regulate titles. It only regulates who can take on the throne and who can not. True that Konstantin title changed from "to Denmark" to "of Denmark" after the 1953 act, but that was a side effect. The succession Act is only like 15 linies or something. Its very short.

Think about it. The current crownprincess is also "only" Crownprincess of Denmark, but she is indeed a part of the Royal Family - it is not courtsey only. She is the future Queen.


.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by MargreteI

Translation of the link given, which is a §20 question posed in parliament to the Minister of Justice :

Spm. nr. S 3937

Anne Baastrup (SF/Socialistic Peoples Party, a non-royal republican party):

»Can the Minister confirm that (King) Konstantin has a danish passport, and if so, how he got it ?«

Reason for raising the question :
We refer to the fact that Konstantin is not a danish citizen and the fact that his wife has renounced her claim to the throne, as to why Konstantin is not a member of the Royal Family.

Answer (19/9 01)

Minister of Justice (Frank Jensen):

The Ministry of Justice has in order to answer the question requested the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for a statement.

When this statement is present i will revert to this matter.

Supplementing answer (12/10 01)

Minister of Justice (Frank Jensen):

The Ministry of Justice has requested a statement from the Ministry of Justice to be used in answering this question.

It appear from the statement, that Ministry of Foreign Affairs, based on Directions for the Foreign Service, has complied with a request to issue diplomat passports to His Majesty King Konstantin, since members of the Greek Royal Family, in direct liniar line descrend from King Cristian IX and Queen Louise, which means they are decrendants of King George I (born Prince Vilhelm to Denmark), carries the title Prince, respectively Princess, of Greece and Denmark.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

First of all, I am most grateful for your translation of the document.
Second, I would like to apologize for confusing you by calling, in the previous post, the af Danmark courtesy title. I should have said, instead, to avoid confusion that prince or princess af Danmark has no sunbstantive meaning or legal bearing per se.
I do appreciate that, socially, the term courtesy is understood by most people as referring to use of a non-existent title as a polite gesture, but in peerage parlance [see Wikipedia], courtesy title is used in distinction from, and in contrast to, substantive title. For example, the first son of a duke carries usually the title of marquess which is real but is called a courtesy title by the Biritish Peerage because the bearer holds no position in the House of Lords until the death of his father. The term courtesy title is also used in reference to titles acquired through marriage, as in the cases of commoners marrying princes, dukes etc.and holding no titles in their own rights.
Example: Crown Princess of Sweden is a sunbstantive title, while Crown Princess of Belgium is not.

The question asked by the MP was technical and specifically why King Constantine got a Danish passport and, by implication, why was he granted Danish citizenship. And the Minister gave the correct answer, which is exactly what I discussed in my preceding post. Former Constantine was born with rights of succession to the Danish Throne, thus a prince til Danmark (1940) and ipso facto a Dane. As of the enactment date of the 1953 Succession Act, he ceased to have such rights and ceased to be a prince til Danmark, but remains a Dane and became a prince af Danmark.

Originally Posted by MargreteI

This also explain why all King Konstantins children, as well as his grandchildren after Pavlos are indeed still Princess of Denmark. Marie Chantal however is not, even if married to Pavlos, since she is not a decrendants of George I. Alexias kids arent eighter since a Princess can not pass her title to
her children.

Logically, once a father is a Dane and holds Danish passport, his children should also have the same privileges.
I am not sure, however, whether the prince af Danmark title is inheritable. My personal guess would be that it isn't but I may be utterly wrong. The prince af Danmark title was extended apparently only to those who were holding a til Danmark rank and title when the Act came into effect and logically it should be an ad personam title. Perhaps, it would be interesting if you had the time to research and tell us about it.

Originally Posted by MargreteI

It is not coursey only. It is indeed a real title founded in historic reaons. How much it is actually worth in a whole other thing, but real it is.

I agree. Please see above.

Originally Posted by MargreteI

You misunderstand the Succession Act and its meaning. It does not regulate who belongs to the Royal Family or not. Neighter does it regulate titles. It only regulates who can take on the throne and who can not.

I agree completely that the 1953 Succession Act only regulates succession to the throne and it does not regulate rank and titles. However, in Denmark, those members who lose their rights to the throne, lose also their rank and title.
Example #1: HRH Prince Knud's sons, born princes [now Counts Rosenborg] Ingolf and Christian, lost their right of succession upon their marriage without permission by the monarch and automatically ceased to be princes [either til or af Dankark] and should not be referred to as princes except in a historical sense and for the period of their lives up until their marriage. However, their sister, Elisabeth continues to be a dynast [8th in the Order of Succession] and keeps the highest rank of nobility [princess], her title [princess] and style [her Higness].
Example #2: Princess Anne-Marie of Denmark, upon marrying a foreign ruling dynast in 1964, lost her succession rights, by decision of her father and King and she is no more a princess til Danmark.
Indeed, it is quite significant and important that the passport to King Constantine was not issued on the grounds of his being the husband of Anne-Marie but because of his descent from King Christian IX.

Originally Posted by MargreteI

True that Konstantin title changed from "to Denmark" to "of Denmark" after the 1953 act, but that was a side effect. The succession Act is only like 15 linies or something. Its very short.

I appreciate that you agree on that.

Originally Posted by MargreteI

Think about it. The current crownprincess is also "only" Crownprincess of Denmark, but she is indeed a part of the Royal Family - it is not courtsey only. She is the future Queen.


.

Of course she is real. The af Danamark in her case implies only that she is not a princess in her own rights or she holds no substantive position in her own rights. However her title is real and she has full legal rights because she holds what is called "a life estate in her husband's dignity".
Example #1: Their Royal Highnesses Victoria, Mary, Maxima, Mathilde, Letizia are Crown Princesses but only Victoria is constitutionally relevant and receives precedence as such because, one day, she will become a sovereign queen. The others will become queen consorts but never monarchs.
Example #2: Formerly HRH Princess Alexandra, became HH as soon as she took divorce and ceased to be a princess upon her remarriage.

I would like to thank you again for an excellent discussion.

[Next Star]

Originally Posted by Philippe Egalite'

As the word primogeniture implies (first born), the first-born child, irrespective of sex inherits wealth, estate, throne or other office or rank or title. Absolute Primogeniture is now applied in Sweden (since 1980), Netherlands (since 1983), Norway (since 1990) and Belgium (since 1991).

There are also other types of primogeniture:
1. Agnatic Primogeniture. Inheritance according to seniority of birth, to the total exclusion of females (Salic law). For example, this was the case in Denmark until 1953. During the 19th century, most monarchies in Europe practised this law of succession, but is now extinct. This was the reason, in fact, that Luxembourg split from The Netherlands.

2. Cognatic Primogeniture. Male-preference primogeniture, where a younger brother takes over an older sister. A female, however, can still inherit the throne, if she has NO living brothers or deceased brothers with surviving children. This system applies still in Great Britain, Spain, Denmark (since 1953) and was also the case in Sweden until 1980. In Sweden, prince Carl Philip, although younger than princess Victoria, was crown prince for a short while. But the Swedish government and parliament changed the Rule to Absolute Primogeniture, thus allowing the first-born, princess Victoria to become crown princess.

3. Agnatic Cognatic Primogeniture. Females can inherit only if all eligible males are extinct. Example, the daughter of a sovereign may inherit the throne, if she has no living brothers or deceased brothers with son(s) and no living brothers or sons of brothers of her father are available either. This system is currently in effect in Luxembourg.

Your incorrect about primogenture in the dictionary primogenture is stated that the eldest son inherits the estate,properties, or titles from the late previous holder or monarch.

[Archduchess Zelia]

Now it is:

1. H.R.H Crownprince Frederik André Henrik Christian
2. H.R.H Prince Christian Valdemar Henri John
3. H.R.H Princess Isabella Henrietta Ingrid Margrethe
4. H.R.H Prince Joachim Holger Valdemar Christian
5. H.R.H Prince Nikolai William Alexander Frederik
6. H.R.H Prince Felix Henrik Valdemar Christian
7. H.R.H the Little Prince (son of H.R.H Prince Joachim and H.R.H Princess Marie)
8. H.R.H Princess Benedikte Astrid Ingeborg Ingrid
9. H.R.H Princess Elisabeth Caroline-Mathilde Alexandrine Helena Olga Thyra Feodora Estrid Margarethe Désirée

[MAfan]

What about Queen Anne Marie of Greece and King Konstantinos? They still are Princes of Denmark...

[amedea]

Why princess Elisabeth come before princess Benedikte's children?

[MAfan]

Because the children of Benedikte are not in the line of succession; when Benedikte married, King Frederik IX stated that her children would have been in the LoS only if raised in Denmark; but since they were raised in Germany, they don't have rights to the Danish Throne.

[jonnydep]

as princess anne marie had married a foreign ruler, king frederick IX had decreed that her and her issue had no succession rights to the throne.

as for the title and style of prince (ss) of denmark -this denotes those who are genelogically part of the danish royal house (via male descent from king christian IX ).
however those who are entitled to succeed to the throne of denmark, are stlyed prince (ss) to denmark (this distinction is not often made clear in english).

as for the children of princess benedikte, frederick IX, had also decreed that they was to be brought up in denmark to be able to have rights to succeed to the danish throne. however this condition was not met, so her children has lost the rights of succession........

i hope this clears things up for you amedea ?

[Archduchess Zelia]

Originally Posted by MAfan

What about Queen Anne Marie of Greece and King Konstantinos? They still are Princes of Denmark...

Well I don't know, but I think that it goes back to King Georg I, or ... Just a guess (:

[jonnydep]

Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia

Well I don't know, but I think that it goes back to King Georg I, or ... Just a guess (:

yes, you are correct, king george I of greece was born prince william of denmark, a son of king christian IX of denmark.
so as princess anne marie's husband ex king constantine II of greece, is a direct male descendant of king george I, the couples children are therefore styled prince (ss) of denmark, which as i have mentioned adove denotes that they are genelogically part of the danish royal house. but none of them have any rights to succession to the danish throne via both parents.........

[Archduchess Zelia]

Originally Posted by jonnydep1

yes, you are correct, king george I of greece was born prince william of denmark, a son of king christian IX of denmark.
so as princess anne marie's husband ex king constantine II of greece, is a direct male descendant of king george I, the couples children are therefore styled prince (ss) of denmark, which as i have mentioned adove denotes that they are genelogically part of the danish royal house. but none of them have any rights to succession to the danish throne via both parents.........

Okay (: That was also what I thought