Death and Cremation of Princess Elisabeth: June 19 and 25, 2018

[Mbruno]

The building style itself is very typical of the period for village and small town churches. There are literally hundreds of churches like this dotted all over DK. Most of them chalked white though.
The inside of the church would have looked much more austere than today, between the period shortly after the Reformation in 1536 and until pretty recently. During that period, the medieval wall-decorations would have been covered by white lime.

Does that mean that, more recently, churches have become less austere and wall decorations are in use again ? Is there any particular reason for that change of attitude ?

 

[Muhler]

Could someone tell a bit more about her lifelong relationship? I didn't know she'd been so long and serious involved with someone.

I've never followed Elisabeth much and her partner died in 1997, so what relatively limited coverage there was of the two of them when they were active, was back from before I got genuinely interested in royalty.
But from fragments here and there:
Princess Elisabeth worked in the Foreign Ministry and she was way more discreet than her siblings in regards to the press, without directly avoiding the press that is. - She simply wasn't a "juicy story" so to speak.

In some way she met her partner Claus Hermansen and they moved in together.
He was a film man, mainly documentaries, which meant that he probably traveled a good deal filming or was away for periods on research, location findings and so on. That may have suited Elisabeth well, since she for a few years at a time were stationed at Danish embassies abroad. So I imagine they for periods didn't see each other that much.
Yet, they hit it off. None of them were interested in having children. Elisabeth was very clear about that while she liked being a doting aunt, she was not interesting in having such critters around herself!

He lived an interesting life! During the Occupation he made illegal films for the Resistance and IIRC he actually filmed and narrated an act of sabotage, that to this day is still dramatic! Including how a passer-by shouted: "I can't hear! I can't hear!". His eardrums had been blasted by the explosion.

They lived in a pretty big house in a pretty posh neighborhood of Copenhagen, but it seem to me they hadn't saved much, because it has been hinted that Elisabeth was pretty much forced to sell the house and not at the most favorable prize. (Certainly not in the middle of the Financial Crisis!)

I think I'll leave it at other Danes to tell more about Claus Hermansen, because that's basically all I know.

Does that mean that, more recently, churches have become less austere and wall decorations are in use again ? Is there any particular reason for that change of attitude ?

Oh yes, a lot less austere.

The Protestant austerity, so to speak, peaked in 1600's here in DK.
That was: Few decorations to distract people from the essentials: which were God, Jesus - and not least listening to what the priest said.
Anyway, all that carvings and paintings and decorations was basically considered Catholic heresy.
So while cathedrals maintained some of their inbuilt decorations, stained windows and what not, new cathedrals built after the Reformation were very much Protestant: Big, imposing, heavy, strict, pious and first and foremost serious, just like the worshipers ought to be.
That policy was of course easier to implement in the local village churches, it only needed a coat of lime or a crowbar to pry out carved statues.

But austerity never lasts. And over time the whole business about service and going to church became a less serious matter - or a gloomy matter, if you prefer. So back came the stained windows with scenes, which were not always religious, back came carvings and figures and during the religious seasons other decorations returned. The church was after all supposed to be a nice place to visit - and increasingly it became so.
There were some local back-to-basics reversals here and there. Mainly in western and northern Jutland during the late 1800's and again in the 1920's.

Then in recent decades, mainly as a result of renovations uncovering the original look, there was a wish to return the churches back to how they looked around the time they were build. And that included wall paintings. Often in vivid colors. People in the medieval times were very fond of colors, and as garish as possible! But few churches have gone that far though. So today you will see many medieval paintings being exposed and restored and now incorporated into an otherwise "traditional Danish Protestant village church." ("Traditional", because people have long since forgotten how the churches originally looked. So the post-Reformation look is today the "traditional" look.)

 

[Prisma]

RIP Princess Elisabeth. Condolences to her family and friends.

 

[maria-olivia]

Her parents were first cousins ?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

King Christian X (father of Prince Knud) and Prince Harald (father of Princess Caroline-Mathilde) were brothers indeed.

Paternal line:

Knud
=
Christian X of Denmark x Alexandrine von Mecklenburg-Schwerin

|

Christian X
=
Frederik VIII of Denmark x Lovisa of Sweden

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Maternal line

Caroline-Mathilde
=
Harald of Denmark x Helena von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg

|

Harald
=
Frederik VIII of Denmark x Lovisa of Sweden

 

[Tarlita]

I will attempt to do a family tree here. (Btw Denmark is about to play against Australia in the World Cup. Best of luck to both teams.

King Christian X ..... brother ... Prince Harald m Princess Helena
Son Fred and Knud...married ....Princess Caroline Mathilde dau of Harald.

Knud and Caroline were first cousins.
ELIZABETH and Queen Margrethe are second cousins.

Her full name Princess Elizabeth, Caroline-Mathilde, Alexandrine, Helena, Olga, Thyra, Feodora, Margrethe, Desiree.
Born 8 May 1935.

 

[An Ard Ri]

I had forgotten that Knud, Hereditary Prince of Denmark & Princess Caroline-Mathilde of Denmark were indeed 1st cousins.

 

[principessa]

Her full name Princess Elizabeth, Caroline-Mathilde, Alexandrine, Helena, Olga, Thyra, Feodora, Margrethe, Desiree.
Born 8 May 1935.

Between Feodora and Margrethe the name Estrid is missing.

 

[Curryong]

My goodness, did they want to name this baby after every female relative, alive, dead, past and future? Ten names is just a bit excessive even for royalty, IMHO.

 

[JR76]

I will attempt to do a family tree here. (Btw Denmark is about to play against Australia in the World Cup. Best of luck to both teams.

King Christian X ..... brother ... Prince Harald m Princess Helena
Son Fred and Knud...married ....Princess Caroline Mathilde dau of Harald.

Knud and Caroline were first cousins.
ELIZABETH and Queen Margrethe are second cousins.

Second cousins through her mother but first cousins through their fathers.

 

[wartenberg7]

King Christian X (father of Prince Knud) and Prince Harald (father of Princess Caroline-Mathilde) were brothers indeed.

Paternal line:

Knud
=
Christian X of Denmark x Alexandrine von Mecklenburg-Schwerin

|

Christian X
=
Frederik VIII of Denmark x Lovisa of Sweden

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Maternal line

Caroline-Mathilde
=
Harald of Denmark x Helena von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg

|

Harald
=
Frederik VIII of Denmark x Lovisa of Sweden

Horrid... this is the cliche of all people opposed to aristocracy and Royalty, the inbreeding...

 

[An Ard Ri]

Obituary of Princess Elisabeth of Denmark.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/1738614/3-princess-elisabeth-danish-queens-cousin-dies-83/

 

[Marengo]

Horrid... this is the cliche of all people opposed to aristocracy and Royalty, the inbreeding...

I don't think this was limited to royalty or nobility. It happened in many other families too, especially in smaller communities on the countryside.

 

[JR76]

I don't think this was limited to royalty or nobility. It happened in many other families too, especially in smaller communities on the countryside.

I found out a few months ago that the parents of my grandmother were second cousins. The grandparents of one of my friends were first cousins. None of them came from prominent families.

 

[Stefan]

I found out a few months ago that the parents of my grandmother were second cousins. The grandparents of one of my friends were first cousins. None of them came from prominent families.

It is the same for me. My parents as well as all my grandparents are all from the same part of my town. When i researchd my ancestors some years back i found they are related several times for example a great-grandmother of my father and a great-grandmother of my mother where sisters.

 

[maria-olivia]

Olav of Norway and Märtha of Sweden were also first Cousins.

 

[Stefan]

Olav of Norway and Märtha of Sweden were also first Cousins.

As where his parents. And Märtha's father was a cousin of his mother-in-law.

 

[suztav]

Apologies if I missed the explanation … but, why was Elizabeth not allowed to marry her life partner? She was way way down in the line of succession for years and her cousin -- the Queen -- was married to a non-royal ( a nobleman, but still non royal). I'm shocked!

Did I misunderstand?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I've never followed Elisabeth much and her partner died in 1997, so what relatively limited coverage there was of the two of them when they were active, was back from before I got genuinely interested in royalty.
But from fragments here and there:
Princess Elisabeth worked in the Foreign Ministry and she was way more discreet than her siblings in regards to the press, without directly avoiding the press that is. - She simply wasn't a "juicy story" so to speak.

In some way she met her partner Claus Hermansen and they moved in together.
He was a film man, mainly documentaries, which meant that he probably traveled a good deal filming or was away for periods on research, location findings and so on. That may have suited Elisabeth well, since she for a few years at a time were stationed at Danish embassies abroad. So I imagine they for periods didn't see each other that much.
Yet, they hit it off. None of them were interested in having children. Elisabeth was very clear about that while she liked being a doting aunt, she was not interesting in having such critters around herself!

He lived an interesting life! During the Occupation he made illegal films for the Resistance and IIRC he actually filmed and narrated an act of sabotage, that to this day is still dramatic! Including how a passer-by shouted: "I can't hear! I can't hear!". His eardrums had been blasted by the explosion.

They lived in a pretty big house in a pretty posh neighborhood of Copenhagen, but it seem to me they hadn't saved much, because it has been hinted that Elisabeth was pretty much forced to sell the house and not at the most favorable prize. (Certainly not in the middle of the Financial Crisis!)

I think I'll leave it at other Danes to tell more about Claus Hermansen, because that's basically all I know.



Oh yes, a lot less austere.

The Protestant austerity, so to speak, peaked in 1600's here in DK.
That was: Few decorations to distract people from the essentials: which were God, Jesus - and not least listening to what the priest said.
Anyway, all that carvings and paintings and decorations was basically considered Catholic heresy.
So while cathedrals maintained some of their inbuilt decorations, stained windows and what not, new cathedrals built after the Reformation were very much Protestant: Big, imposing, heavy, strict, pious and first and foremost serious, just like the worshipers ought to be.
That policy was of course easier to implement in the local village churches, it only needed a coat of lime or a crowbar to pry out carved statues.

But austerity never lasts. And over time the whole business about service and going to church became a less serious matter - or a gloomy matter, if you prefer. So back came the stained windows with scenes, which were not always religious, back came carvings and figures and during the religious seasons other decorations returned. The church was after all supposed to be a nice place to visit - and increasingly it became so.
There were some local back-to-basics reversals here and there. Mainly in western and northern Jutland during the late 1800's and again in the 1920's.

Then in recent decades, mainly as a result of renovations uncovering the original look, there was a wish to return the churches back to how they looked around the time they were build. And that included wall paintings. Often in vivid colors. People in the medieval times were very fond of colors, and as garish as possible! But few churches have gone that far though. So today you will see many medieval paintings being exposed and restored and now incorporated into an otherwise "traditional Danish Protestant village church." ("Traditional", because people have long since forgotten how the churches originally looked. So the post-Reformation look is today the "traditional" look.)

It seems they complemented each other perfectly, as both of them enjoyed their independence and broke ground in their careers. And thank you for the explanation of the history involved in the "traditional" look of Protestant churches in Denmark.

Apologies if I missed the explanation … but, why was Elizabeth not allowed to marry her life partner? She was way way down in the line of succession for years and her cousin -- the Queen -- was married to a non-royal ( a nobleman, but still non royal). I'm shocked!

Did I misunderstand?

In interviews, Princess Elisabeth explained that she made the decision not to marry her life partner because after marrying him, she would not have been a member of the Royal House anymore, and she would have lost her royal privileges (invitations to state occasions, as an example she gave) and title accordingly, and become a private citizen with Mrs. Hermansen as her name.

The Queen hasn't explained why she would have stripped Princess Elisabeth of her status if she had married Claus Hermansen, but we discussed theories in the thread here: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f24/marriage-to-commoners-in-denmark-17192.html#post2125352

 

[Nordic]

The Queen hasn't explained why she would have stripped Princess Elisabeth of her status if she had married Claus Hermansen, but we discussed theories in the thread here: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f24/marriage-to-commoners-in-denmark-17192.html#post2125352

Because Queen Margrethe followed the practice of the time?
If Elisabeth's brothers had already lost their status, how could she have let Elisabeth keep it a few years later?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count...arriage,_loss_of_dynastic_rights_and_children

 

[An Ard Ri]

I wonder if any foreign royals will attend her funeral or if it will be just close family and friends?

 

[tommy100]

To be perfectly honest I'd wonder if any members of the Danish Royal Family - i.e. the Queen's family - will attend.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Because Queen Margrethe followed the practice of the time?
If Elisabeth's brothers had already lost their status, how could she have let Elisabeth keep it a few years later?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count...arriage,_loss_of_dynastic_rights_and_children

I've responded to this point in the post on the Marriages to Commoners in Denmark thread (here), but I can add that Claus Hermansen's relationship with Princess Elisabeth lasted until his death in 1997 (which was about two years after Prince Joachim was given permission by the Queen to keep his status after marrying a commoner).

To be perfectly honest I'd wonder if any members of the Danish Royal Family - i.e. the Queen's family - will attend.

I would hope that at least the Queen will attend. The Princess was after all an excellent member of the Royal House who undertook public duties on behalf of the Queen, and while the relationship between the cousins was not a close one it seems to have been amicable, as the Queen invited the Princess to move back into Sorgenfri Palace when she was in need of a new home.

 

[Denville]

To be perfectly honest I'd wonder if any members of the Danish Royal Family - i.e. the Queen's family - will attend.

Why woudlnt they? Pss Elis was a member of the family....

 

[Muhler]

BB will send live from Princess Elisabeth's funeral tomorrow:
https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...-direkte-fra-prinsesse-elisabeths-bisaettelse

They will start at 12.15 when the mourners start arriving at the church. The casket will be carried out from the church around 13.30.

So keep an eye out for the links on BB's site tomorrow.

 

[Somebody]

Both Benedikte and Anne Marie are also in Denmark, so I'd expect them to extend their stay to attend their cousin's funeral.

 

[Countessmeout]

Because Queen Margrethe followed the practice of the time?
If Elisabeth's brothers had already lost their status, how could she have let Elisabeth keep it a few years later?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count...arriage,_loss_of_dynastic_rights_and_children

Because Margrethe wasn't queen when Elizabeth's brothers married, her father was on the throne. It was her father who wouldn't grant permission. Just as if either Carl Gustaf or Bertil had married during the reign of CG's grandfather, they would have lost their place in succession. The rules changed shortly after. Margrethe wasn't bound to make the same decisions as her father had.

To be perfectly honest I'd wonder if any members of the Danish Royal Family - i.e. the Queen's family - will attend.

Why wouldn't they? She isn't some distant relative they had no contact with. I would expect the queen and a few others, at least her sisters.

 

[WillVictoria]

Because Margrethe wasn't queen when Elizabeth's brothers married, her father was on the throne. It was her father who wouldn't grant permission. Just as if either Carl Gustaf or Bertil had married during the reign of CG's grandfather, they would have lost their place in succession. The rules changed shortly after. Margrethe wasn't bound to make the same decisions as her father had.




Why wouldn't they? She isn't some distant relative they had no contact with. I would expect the queen and a few others, at least her sisters.

But Margarethe was queen when Elisabeth wanted to marry her long-term partner and Elisabeth was still told that she would lose her title if she got married, and her partner didn't enjoy the same de-facto royal spouse status as Carina.

 

[Countessmeout]

But Margarethe was queen when Elisabeth wanted to marry her long-term partner and Elisabeth was still told that she would lose her title if she got married, and her partner didn't enjoy the same de-facto royal spouse status as Carina.

We don't know if they ever asked permission to marry. Only speculation.

Carina is certainly an exception to the rule, even in modern times. Very rarely would a non-spouse be given such a de-facto position in any royal house. Lilian and Bertil were prime example. In his father's life time, Bertil and Lilian had to be discreet, and Lilian certainly didn't get de-facto status.

Husbands of royal princesses remain private citizens. Even Elizabeth had married with permission, her partner would not have had any role.

Maybe Margrethe wouldn't have allowed it. My point simply is you cant base what would happen off how her brothers were treated. The fact that it was under different reigns makes a very big difference.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Both Benedikte and Anne Marie are also in Denmark, so I'd expect them to extend their stay to attend their cousin's funeral.

It would be nice to see the 3 sisters there at the funeral.