Danish Referendum on Succession Laws; June 2009

[tdarlene]

Makes you wonder why Sweden didn't think of that since the Prince was already born and it was known that is what the Swedish King wanted. Someday it will probably make a good movie.

I red some time ago that the reason why Victoria will be Queen isntead of her brother, it was because when Princess Victoria was born doctors told that Queen Silvia could´t have any other children, wether that's true or not I don't know, but Victoria was born and it was decided to change the law, so Victoria could be Queen, so when Prince Carl Phillip was born the law had been already changed and aproved. So if they had changed the law only after Prince Carl Phillip birth, it would be him the next monarch.

[Winnie]

Originally Posted by avrilo

If you think about it, it is the same to chose someone becuase of their gender or their order of birth. It should be more related to which one of the sibblings is more capable of ruling, or which one has this or that skills required to take the crown

Now you threw me on that one! How can you know if a person is capable of ruling when usually at birth they make the announcement of "next in line". You can't just wait until the King has passed and then have this "election" of the siblings trying to locate the most worthy. Imagine all the intrigue behind closed doors.........I think I am watching too many programs on the International History Channel, Scotland and England was just rerun!

If a country was to do that, I don't think a Royal Family would be required -- just a general election of anyone capable. IMO a constitutional law on the undisputed order within the Royal Family is a must in any country.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Winnie

Thank you Duke of Marmalade for clearing up. So, in fact, Sweden's constitutional change started the day it was signed into law [reason prince lost his right to throne and Victoria is future Queen] But if Spain passes the same constitutional change, it is believed that it will not change anything until AFTER Felipe sits on throne. Otherwise, Felipe's older sister would be next in line to be Queen on the King's passing ---if they adopted the SAME wording in Spain as they did in Sweden. Damn, it sure could get down right hairy if not worded exactly correct. Wars have been started over less.

Makes you wonder why Sweden didn't think of that since the Prince was already born and it was known that is what the Swedish King wanted. Someday it will probably make a good movie.

I think if the law in Spain is changed it will probably include some sentence like in the norwegian change. That the changes only come in force for persons born after for example 1968. This would mean that Felipe remains the heir despite the fact that he has an older sister but for his children it is otherwise (if he will get an son). It was also said that it was not urgent as Leonor is not the direct heir yet. Only if she will named Princess of Asturias. And this will only happen after the accession of Felipe.
I think one of the reasons that Spain has not started the process of changing the law yet is that they also need a referendum there and there is a fear that becomes a referendum ablout the monarchy if they make not also other changes at the Constitution. And about other changes the political parties have diffferent opinions.

In my opinion the best way to change the succession law to gender-equal is how it was like it was done in the Netherlands when there are no persons involved in the Change. There it was changed in 1983 and because there where only 7 Princes nothing changed.

[agnessa]

Reading all these posts I must agree that maybe is the reason only political cause actually there are no reasons to hurry up with this act. Denmark will get 2 kings after queen and this is sure. But maybe it's good to do this change of law now and I personally think that Danes could vote for this. And the first born child have all rights to be the monarch.

[Lilla]

Originally Posted by agnessa

Reading all these posts I must agree that maybe is the reason only political cause actually there are no reasons to hurry up with this act. Denmark will get 2 kings after queen and this is sure.

Then again - if Frederik and Mary gets a third child, who is male, he - according to the male preference principle - will become third in line to the throne and Isabella, who is third in line today, will (only) be fourth in line. This is not in concordance with the act of equality. So after all, in that perspective, there is a haste.

[marmi]

Originally Posted by Lilla

Then again - if Frederik and Mary gets a third child, who is male, he - according to the male preference principle - will become third in line to the throne and Isabella, who is third in line today, will (only) be fourth in line. This is not in concordance with the act of equality. So after all, in that perspective, there is a haste.

I hadnt thought of it that way before.
I'd say given what Mary has said that there will at some stage be a number 3, so yes that is a good reason to move along with the referendum pronto!

[Odette]

All these posts make me wonder. Wasn't this issue put to rest when the law changed to allow then Princess Margrethe ascend to the throne after her father?, bypassing his younger brother and his son?
Is the referendum to be passed now different? and how?

[marmi]

Thats yet another good point actually. Surely, even if only by default, once there was a precedent for female over male rule (when Margrethe ascended the throne) the constitution could have been changed then, without shaking things up too much?

[JessRulz]

Odette, the law that allowed Margrethe to ascend the throne after her father just allowed females to inherit the throne. Prior to 1953, it was a male-only line of succession. This new referendum will allow the line to the throne be decided on order of birth, not by sex.

For example, currently the succession is 1. Frederik, 2. Christian, 3. Isabella. If Frederik & Mary were to have another child and it was a boy; under the current system, the line of succession would become 1. Frederik, 2. Christian, 3. Baby Prince X, 4. Isabella. The referendum the Danish government want to pass would make it, if F&M were to have another child, 1. Frederik, 2. Christian, 3. Isabella, 4. Baby Prince X

Hope that helps!

[Odette]

Marmi thanks for the explanation. Still it sounds like too much effort for something that is already the rule and is going to be remotely neccessary.
If the constitution was changed for a female to inherit the throne and allowed P Margrethe to reign then the current line would go to Frederick, Christian, Isabella and so forth. I cannot believe (then again I should believe) that the parliament will take time to have a referendum to fix something that is not broken.
Norway already has this law so Ingrid will be the next Queen and Magnus is next in line if another boy or girl is born will be in line behind Magnus.
Perhaps I am dense but still I cannot understand the reason for this referendum.

[JessRulz]

Originally Posted by Odette

Norway already has this law so Ingrid will be the next Queen and Magnus is next in line if another boy or girl is born will be in line behind Magnus.

Odette, this is what Denmark is trying to achieve with their succession laws. They do not have this law yet - it is still cognatic (male-preference) primogeniture, meaning that (like in England), boys are still preferred over girls. A girl can inherit the throne, as long as she has no brothers (or something terrible happens or the said brother inherits then has no children).

[Odette]

Originally Posted by JessRulz

Odette, this is what Denmark is trying to achieve with their succession laws. They do not have this law yet - it is still cognatic (male-preference) primogeniture, meaning that (like in England), boys are still preferred over girls. A girl can inherit the throne, as long as she has no brothers (or something terrible happens or the said brother inherits then has no children).

Thank you JessRulz.

[madeleine victoria]

IMO, I think Spain should amend the constitution and put equal rights to whoever is the heir,male or female as long as s/he's the first born. I think it's easier that way. There will be no pressure on the mother to produce a male heir. In the case of Spain, Leonor can become Queen even if Letizia will have a 3rd male child. If this will be the case, the future King Christian of Denmark will be the only male sovereign just like the case now with CPss Victoria of Sweden. I wonder what will happen if one of the current monarchs today abdicates and his heir is proclaimed the King or Queen. Will the neighboring kingdoms follow?

[Sonjapearl]

What about Japan? I know ever since Princess Kiko had a boy, talks of allowing women to inherit the throne died down. But is there still a possibility of Aiko becoming Empress?

[sgl]

Originally Posted by Lilla

Then again - if Frederik and Mary gets a third child, who is male, he - according to the male preference principle - will become third in line to the throne and Isabella, who is third in line today, will (only) be fourth in line. This is not in concordance with the act of equality. So after all, in that perspective, there is a haste.

I completely agree with you Lilla (although, I am not a Dane, so my opinion isn't really valid). It seems that this is the perfect time to change the laws-especially since Frederik and Mary have never said that they are done having children.

[JessRulz]

Originally Posted by Sonjapearl

What about Japan? I know ever since Princess Kiko had a boy, talks of allowing women to inherit the throne died down. But is there still a possibility of Aiko becoming Empress?

No, not without a change in the law. See this thread for more information and discussion.

[Harald]

Originally Posted by Winnie

Now you threw me on that one! How can you know if a person is capable of ruling when usually at birth they make the announcement of "next in line". You can't just wait until the King has passed and then have this "election" of the siblings trying to locate the most worthy. Imagine all the intrigue behind closed doors.........I think I am watching too many programs on the International History Channel, Scotland and England was just rerun!

Knife duels between the Royal siblings could work as well and would also provide the population with entertainment.

[hamlet]

:-(lol)

Not a good way to move forward. How can one ask for peace when the family is at war in its own house?

The system works as it is. It has successfully moved a loving family forward for centuries.

Peace,

E-T

[Kotroman]

I know that most of you will disagree, but I believe that male-preferance should be kept. After all, that's the tradition and that's why having a female monarch is so special (you don't get to see many of them in your lifetime). Removing male-preferance would also remove all the exciting uncertainty of succession! I have to warn you that I'm not being biased in favour of my own sex , I just respect tradition.

[White Princess]

Hope they adopt full line sucession!