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  #181  
Old 09-27-2015, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HereditaryPrincess View Post

[...] How is Alexandra "abusing" (according to the article) Nikolai and Felix??

[...]
By living on the expenses of the Danish taxpayer because -after all- she is the mother of two Princes and she will never let anyone forget that? Abusing is not the good word, exploiting maybe is better.
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  #182  
Old 09-27-2015, 02:41 PM
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I don't think Joachim and Martin are the same, sure Joachim went a little wild after the divorce/seperation but I think he is more of a gallant gentleman than Martin will ever be. Martin always struck me as a player who was delighted to score an ex-princess who was the biggest 'prize' in Denmark at the time. Its just a shame the boys were involved in this as I'm sure, no matter how badly behaved he was, they loved Martin as a step-father.

I hope, personally, that Alexandra will throw herself into her charity work now, put her partying days behind her and really pull out all the stops for her charities to fill the void left by her ex and her children now they are older/at boarding school.

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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
By living on the expenses of the Danish taxpayer because -after all- she is the mother of two Princes and she will never let anyone forget that? Abusing is not the good word, exploiting maybe is better.
I think thats unfair IMO, Alexandra turns up with her children to support a long standing patronage and that exploitative? If so Mary and Fred exploit their children all the time as do William and Kate, Victoria and Daniel, Hakkon and Mette-Marit, Maxima and WA, Felipe and Letizia. :-P
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  #183  
Old 09-27-2015, 03:29 PM
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I think thats unfair IMO, Alexandra turns up with her children to support a long standing patronage and that exploitative? If so Mary and Fred exploit their children all the time as do William and Kate, Victoria and Daniel, Hakkon and Mette-Marit, Maxima and WA, Felipe and Letizia. :-P
I don't think the patronage event was critizised, but the pick up from school and the fact that Alex still gets paid by the danish taxpayer because ... yes, what is the reason again? That she has two sons with her ex-husband?

Alex's icy message to Martin: Do not see the kids!
Alex’ iskolde besked til Martin: Du må ikke se børnene - Herognu
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  #184  
Old 09-27-2015, 03:43 PM
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TBF at the time Fred and Mary didn't have children and I suspect the RF were trying to avoid a Diana and Sarah Ferguson situation where divorced members of the family went out and gave interviews or worked commercially using their royal links to bring in income.

In hindsight (which is a great thing) it might have been better to put in place something for a few years which would be reviewed every so often or say give Alexandra support for ten years.

If they had known Mary and Fred would have 4 children, Joachim would remarry and his new wife would become popular and Alexandra would remarry a playboy and perform so few duties I suspect they may have done things differently.
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  #185  
Old 09-27-2015, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Thanks, Duke of Marmalade.

It's interesting, so Ill write a summary.

During the marriage Alexandra praised Martin for being such a good bonus-dad for Nikolai and Felix, and at a speech to Martin last year, where Joachim was present, she referred to the children as "our children".
According to the article Joachim's face showed no emotions.

Now, Her & Nu, refer to a source close to the couple, that Alexandra has made it clear that Martin is no longer to see Nikolai and Felix and that is was not Martin's wish to break the contact between them. As such Martin has had no contact with the boys since he moved out of the house.
Her & Nu has not been able to get a comment from neither Alexandra nor Martin.

- Again, it is important to keep in mind that articles in Her & Nu and indeed Ekstra Bladet should be read with care.
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  #186  
Old 09-27-2015, 05:20 PM
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In fairness to Alexandra if Martin has been getting up to no good its understandable she wants him out of her life in every way possible. That being said its not fair for children to suffer for their parents problems, if the boys want to see Martin I would hope Alexandra would let them unless Martin has done something seriously wrong that would mean Alexandra needs to protect them from him (I don't think this has happened, I'm just saying IMO its the only reason to prevent the boys from seeing Martin IF they wanted to)
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  #187  
Old 09-27-2015, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by grevinnan View Post
I hope through all this Alexandra can get to the bottom of why she married two men that have such similarities. Mature adult men do not leave family for nights out on town as if they are single in the way both men appear to have done. Her sons have now seen two father figures in their lives behave similarly. For their future families sake I hope they will get help in processing these two break-ups.

Excellent points, very thoughtful. The point about the impression all this is having on the two adolescents princes and the implication for their future relationships is particularly sobering.

And I also agree with tommy100. If the boys still want a relationship with the man that Alexandra brought into their lives and encouraged them to love as a surrogate father, they should be allowed to do so...unless Martin has proven himself to be an unsafe and/or dangerous person.
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  #188  
Old 09-27-2015, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
In fairness to Alexandra if Martin has been getting up to no good its understandable she wants him out of her life in every way possible. That being said its not fair for children to suffer for their parents problems, if the boys want to see Martin I would hope Alexandra would let them unless Martin has done something seriously wrong that would mean Alexandra needs to protect them from him (I don't think this has happened, I'm just saying IMO its the only reason to prevent the boys from seeing Martin IF they wanted to)
Agree. It would be wrong to keep them from a step parent they had spent the majority of their lives with and grown to care for.
Of course, if there is danger they should be kept away.

But yes these tabloids should be taken with a grain of salt.

An off question, now that Felix is older can he seek to live with his father Joachim the majority of the time? Im sure he loves his mother , just asking.
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  #189  
Old 09-27-2015, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by polyesco View Post
Agree. It would be wrong to keep them from a step parent they had spent the majority of their lives with and grown to care for.
Of course, if there is danger they should be kept away.

But yes these tabloids should be taken with a grain of salt.

An off question, now that Felix is older can he seek to live with his father Joachim the majority of the time? Im sure he loves his mother , just asking.
Yes, he can actually. IIRC from the age of twelve the wish of the child carry a lot of weight in regards to what parent is granted primary custody.
Administratively speaking it would be a question of transferring the state child support from Alexandra to Joachim, because the money follow the child.
Unless something is seriously wrong at the Alexandra home, or Felix develops issues, I don't believe that will happen though. And not in the situation his mother is in right now.
Felix may be crossed with his mother for not being allowed to see Marin (if that is true) but "letting her down"? That's a big step for a child.
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  #190  
Old 09-28-2015, 01:48 AM
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Felix and Nikolai are old enough to have some understanding of what led to the divorce. As close as they may be to Martin their primary loyalty is likely to their mother, and they also have and have always had a very strong bond with their actual father - it's not like Joachim dropped out of sight when they were little and Martin stepped in to replace him.

If the rumours of Martin not seeing the two young princes are true then I think the possibility that they may not WANT to see him at the moment should be considered.

There's also the possibility that Martin's behaviour went beyond immaturity. I won't give specific examples even as speculation but I'm sure we can all think of a couple of things that would necessitate a responsible parent cutting off someone's contact with their children.
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  #191  
Old 09-30-2015, 12:29 AM
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In the U.S. alimony is usually discontinued on the remarriage of the recipient. Child support is different and continues until the child is of a certain age or finished with schooling. Is apanage the same as alimony, or is it specific to the royal family. Was it contingent on Alexandra continuing to perform royal duties or was it granted to her simply because she had left Hong Kong, made Denmark her home as the wife of a royal prince? IIRC, Alexandra was in investing and finance before her first marriage. If she invested wisely, it doesn't seem like she would need this source of income any longer. If she received it on the expectation of her performing royal duties and she does not fulfill that obligation, it doesn't seem right for her to continue accepting the income.
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  #192  
Old 09-30-2015, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Rocketmom View Post
In the U.S. alimony is usually discontinued on the remarriage of the recipient. Child support is different and continues until the child is of a certain age or finished with schooling. Is apanage the same as alimony, or is it specific to the royal family. Was it contingent on Alexandra continuing to perform royal duties or was it granted to her simply because she had left Hong Kong, made Denmark her home as the wife of a royal prince? IIRC, Alexandra was in investing and finance before her first marriage. If she invested wisely, it doesn't seem like she would need this source of income any longer. If she received it on the expectation of her performing royal duties and she does not fulfill that obligation, it doesn't seem right for her to continue accepting the income.
At least one top politician has said very clearly that the apanage was to ensure that Nikolai and Felix grew up living a life befitting their status. At the time M&F had no children and Nikolai could be the next heir.
It has later emerged that QMII came up with this arrangement and as far as I understand Alexandra's apanage was detracted from Joachim's because his apanage went up when he married, to pay for a wife. - And considering how busy Alexandra was before Mary became Crown Princess it was a good investment. - And keep in mind, she was still a princess.

It's difficult to make predictions, especially about the future, so I think the first thing on the mind of the politicians was to avoid a situation like in Britain, with Diana and Fergie feeding the press with endless material.
We should also keep in mind that of the 179 MP's in the Parliament, practically all of them would have no more info about why Joachim and Alexandra divorced than we do - and the public (and press) sympathy back then was very much behind Alexandra.

I think it was expected Alexandra would do a Benedikte. I.e. working quite a lot with her protections (I'd estimate that only about two-thirds of what Benedikte is doing is mentioned here on TRF) while keeping her private life low-key.
After she remarried and became a commoner I think it was expected Alexandra would take a seat on a few politically safe boards or perhaps join a politically safe company or state business - but she didn't and that in hindsight is perhaps a mistake, because it can so easily be seen as if she is idling her time away on the taxpayers expense. - When in reality the apanage is probably only a nice supplement to her income.
And to the politicians who are used to dealing with a budget based on a GNP of what is it? Some 1.800 billion DKK? Alexandra's apanage is not even peanuts.

After the sale of Schackenborg no one can realistically believe Nikolai and Felix won't be able to get the best education money can buy and they will not have to live in a one room apartment living on canned food the last week of every month until they get a job that pays well enough for them to live a reasonably comfortable life. Because I don't think we should expect Joachim's children, certainly not all four of them, to have a prominent role within the DRF in the future. Perhaps if one or two of them develop a particular talent for royal duties, but otherwise no. On top of that they are very likely to settle and marry abroad somewhere.
So from a PR point of view I think it would be wise of Alexandra not wishing to accept the apanage once Felix turns eighteen.
The public view on that may indeed turn from a low grumble to a demand for Alexandra to be stripped of the apanage if as a consequence of the divorce it turns out that Alexandra's economy is much better than expected. If she has say an estimated fortune of 20 million DKK, (not including her house) it will be extremely difficult to explain to the public why she should continue to receive an apanage and certainly after Felix turns eighteen.
5 million DKK = Fair enough.
10 million DKK = Weeell, okay then, but really...
15 million DKK = Come on!
20 and above = Forget it!
Compared to the average Danish homeowner (some 60%) who has a fortune, including the house and everything else and minus debt, of a little more than 1 million DKK.
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  #193  
Old 09-30-2015, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocketmom View Post
In the U.S. alimony is usually discontinued on the remarriage of the recipient. Child support is different and continues until the child is of a certain age or finished with schooling. Is apanage the same as alimony, or is it specific to the royal family. Was it contingent on Alexandra continuing to perform royal duties or was it granted to her simply because she had left Hong Kong, made Denmark her home as the wife of a royal prince? IIRC, Alexandra was in investing and finance before her first marriage. If she invested wisely, it doesn't seem like she would need this source of income any longer. If she received it on the expectation of her performing royal duties and she does not fulfill that obligation, it doesn't seem right for her to continue accepting the income.
Alexandra på livsvarig apanage | Nyheder
According to this article from 2004 Alexandra got the apanage so she could continue her representative duties (with her patronages). And it was granted for life which clearly shows - no matter what is said today - that it was not meant to ensure an appropriate upbringing for her sons (it was always clear that they would turn 18 one day).

Perhaps a short-sighted decision by the politicians and the Queen who wanted to avoid a situation like in the UK or perhaps a sign that it was indeed Joachim who was to blame for the divorce (In effect Joachim's apanage was split into 2 portions, one for him, one for his soon-to-be ex-wife. But of course his apanage was raised again when he married the second time).

I personally always found it odd that Alexandra kept her "royal" patronages but in the end it was and is up to those organisations to decide whether they want to keep her or not.
And she works with her patronages and perhaps will work even more after her divorce.

Quote:
Muhler
I think it was expected Alexandra would do a Benedikte.
I doubt that very much.
Benedikte is a born princess and even Rigsforstander at times.
Alexandra married into and then left the royal family. It was always clear - at least to me - that she would become less and less "important" with time.
And not even Marie does a Benedikte when it comes to working days.
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  #194  
Old 09-30-2015, 07:02 AM
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You can also turn it around and say the apanage (especially if M&F had had no children) was to ensure that the mother to the next heir wouldn't risk ending up having to live in a social housing complex somewhere and be seen having to look for discounts in the local Lidl supermarket - to put it bluntly of course.
And also ensure Alexandra had the means to give Nikolai and Felix some pocket money while they study at the university or where ever. (Instead of having to turn to Joachim for that, which she might find humiliating).
Also, try give an immature eighteen year old full access to several hundred thousand DKK every year, to spend on drinks and girls and what not. No one knew at the time how Nikolai and Felix would turn out. So I think it was a sound move to ensure Alexandra maintained control over the money.
That might very likely include investing some of them on behalf of her sons and this is something Alexandra has been doing for a living - and apparently doing it well.

I don't think the apanage was an indicator to who was to blame for the divorce. At the time everybody were interested in closing this case as quickly and quietly as possible.
No one wanted a disgruntled and vengeful Alexandra to talk to the press, if Joachim was to blame. If Alexandra was to blame, no one wanted her to say "confess" to the press about an affair she had with X, with all the mess and doubts about who is really the father of... and so on.

I must emphasize that I don't believe that. I lean to Alexandra and Joachim learning that they didn't match - whether they each sought comfort with someone else at the point where their marriage was beyond salvation is anyone's guess.

Could it have been done differently? Sure. And with different conditions as well. But this was the first divorce in the DRF for more than a hundred years. There was no modern precedence.

Also, you can also look at the apanage as something similar to a minister getting a pension, for "services rendered to the state" or a major business executive getting a large financial "parachute" after leaving the job. - In that context Alexandra's "parachute" is actually not that high!

But things change. When Joachim and Alexandra divorced, the economy was booming. But then came the financial crisis and Alexandra remarried. Did less and less work with her protections. Was doing pretty well with her personal economy by all accounts. M&F had children and became the superstars of the DRF. Our Marie entered the field as well.
So, basically Alexandra became redundant in the eyes of the public. That change in the public perception wasn't foreseen either.
While Alexandra stayed married to Martin, she could more or less fly under the radar, but with a second divorce the spotlight is on her. With the inevitable questions of what do we get for the money. - And this time Alexandra is in a much weaker position.
So IMO it would be a very wise move of her to "voluntarily give up" her apanage at some point.
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  #195  
Old 09-30-2015, 07:08 AM
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Alexandra på livsvarig apanage | Nyheder


I doubt that very much.
Benedikte is a born princess and even Rigsforstander at times.
Alexandra married into an then left the royal family. It was always clear - at least to me - that she would become less and less "important" with time.
And not even Marie does a Benedikte when it comes to working days.

I don't really agree with you there. Her birth aside, during her marriage to Joachim, Alexandra was by far the 2nd most popular, high profile and hard working member of the DRF and at the time of the divorce the public was firmly behind her and not her husband.
The Danes aren't like the British who seemingly enjoys seeing public figures first being put on a pedestal and then torn apart by the media.


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  #196  
Old 09-30-2015, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I don't really agree with you there. Her birth aside, during her marriage to Joachim, Alexandra was by far the 2nd most popular, high profile and hard working member of the DRF and at the time of the divorce the public was firmly behind her and not her husband.
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Whether the public was behind her or not, she stopped being a royal when she got divorced. So, how could she do a Benedikte?
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  #197  
Old 09-30-2015, 07:43 AM
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Countess Alexandra and Martin Jørgensen to Separate: September 8, 2015

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Whether the public was behind her or not, she stopped being a royal when she got divorced. So, how could she do a Benedikte?

I think what Muhler (who I know is very capable of speaking for himself) means is that her demoting in status (she did remain a non-HRH princess up to her second marriage) aside she was by the public expected to still act the princess and devote herself to raising her royal sons, representing her charities and maintain a discreet lifestyle not compromising the DRF like Benedikte but minus being a Rigsforstander.


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  #198  
Old 09-30-2015, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
So IMO it would be a very wise move of her to "voluntarily give up" her apanage at some point.
Of course that would be wonderful for the DRF. Because in the end I think this apanage-controversy could do more harm to the monarchy than to Alexandra.

Quote:
JR76
Her status aside she was by the public expected to still act the princess and devote herself to raising her royal sons, representing her charities and maintain a discreet lifestyle not compromising the DRF like Benedikte but minus being a Rigsforstander. At least that's what I think it means.
To act the princess when she no longer is a princess (she was HH up to 2007) and does not have the ressources of a member of the RF? If that was expected then I think it was very unrealistic. Besides there was a hint to a second marriage already in the settlement (she would have to pay taxes in that case).
Apart from that she raised her sons, represented her charities and did not compromise the DRF. So why take away her apanage?
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  #199  
Old 09-30-2015, 08:45 AM
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You nailed it, JR76

No one expected her to be as active as when she was married to Joachim, but certainly to represent her protections well. Which she did initially, certainly before she married Martin and before Joachim remarried.

But in a society where your social status depends on you working (or having earned the right to retire after a working life), continuing to receive an apanage while not doing that much in return will eventually be frowned upon by the general public. Whether that is fair is of course debatable but that's the situation for Alexandra now.

The question of apanage to the DRF will always be an issue. Some people will complain even if the DRF paid all their expenses out of their own pockets.
The problem is mainly that the public, or some parts of the public, are not educated about what the apanage is really used for. Too many still think the apanage the DRF goes directly into their own pockets - and some how by magic the staff pay themselves.

The main problem for Alexandra is that the apanage she receives actually does go into her own pocket. She has a part-time secretary and apart from the odd drive to another part of the country and the odd new dress for a gala, that's basically the only expenses she has. There are no conditions stating that say 50 % must go to Nikolai and Felix. - And that's why the question of her apanage has a more general appeal beyond the usual people who always complain about the taxpayer-money.
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  #200  
Old 09-30-2015, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Abusing is not the good word,
exploiting maybe is better.
Well yes, ' exploiting' is probably bettter !

Just to elaborate on Ms. Thisted: She's a well known journalist
and is presently a.o. a columnist at the Danish red top Extra Bladet,
a tabloid which features anything between the worst gutter- journalism
and clever pieces in the same issue!

Anyway, Thisted was hired to be - if not the devil's advocate -
then the voice/pen putting a different perspective on recent
matters.In the aforementioned article she made no bones about
the fact that she held a high opinion of Martin J. and his family.

As for Alexandra 'exploiting' her sons:
Ms. Thisted was fine with the fact that Alexandra went through
with the Walkathon charity walk with her sons - she usually
does - however she (Thisted) took issue with Alexandra facing
the public with an air of being a woman scorned, walking with
her arms tightly wrapped around Niclolai and Felix, sending
the message that - we're suffering-right-now- but -the -three-
of-us-will stick together -and-deal-with- it.

IMO Thisted has a point if the reports and photos from the
Walkathon are to be believed! I tend to agree that the boys
should not have been part of their mother's public display of
misery, or whatever it was.

Then again, it can't be easy going through a divorce
in public for the second time although she apparently
instigated the first! And being on the receiving end of
an (disputed) apanage doesn't help!

They say that what comes round goes round!

viv
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