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  #141  
Old 08-11-2014, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by polyesco View Post
wow. I hope he doesn't burn through his money quickly.
is he expected to sell his remaining property or will he be making some income off it every year.
Good question.

- I don't think Joachim need worry about the price for maintenaince. The house is newly renovated so larger investments will be many years away.
He apanage alone can easily cover the annual expences.

The property in Southern Jutland is a nice piggy-bank for the children as inheritance.
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  #142  
Old 01-11-2015, 03:56 AM
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I think this is the best place to put this, because there will be more on this story: Dokument afslører Margrethes hemmelighed: Bad om millioner til Alexandra - Royale | www.bt.dk

BT has a feature today where it is revealed that the DRF, the day before the separation between Joachim and Alexandra was announced, send a letter marked confidential (*) to the Prime Minister's office.
In that letter QMII requested that the Parliament approved a yearly apanage for Alexandra.
The then PM, Anders Fogh, publicly suggested the apanage, but that was on the request of QMII. (**)

Alexandra got a good deal of money from Joachim (read the DRF) after the divorce as you know but the apanage is paid for by the taxpayers and at that time Nikolai might have become the next crown prince had M&F not been able to have children.

The court acknowledge the letter but have no further comments.
It's Trine Villemann who for once did her job as a journalist and requested and was granted access to the public records where the letter was.

- This is interesting, because it means that the politicians are now, shall we say, more free to cut down or remove the apanage for Alexandra. Or more likely quietly "suggest" she "voluntarily" give it up certainly when Felix turns eighteen.
Because as it is now, there has in recent years been an increasing debate as to why Alexandra must have an apanage, considering that she is obviously financially secure, especially as she has a very limited role now as a public figure and patron. - And also because Nikolai and Felix' father is very financially secure and can ensure the boys won't starve or suffer any want.
It annoys many that Alexandra, on paper at least, gets more money than Mary (she gets 10 % of Frederik's apanage) who is working hard and also our Marie (who has to ask her husband for money. I.e. they have no official deal in regards to the apanage Joachim gets), who is also working.

(*) All letters regarding requests from the DRF must presumably be confidential.

(**) It's no secret that if and when the DRF request more money for whatever reason, it is usually granted. I can't remember what senior politician said that though. On the other hand if the Parliament wish for the DRF to save money it is usually respected.
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  #143  
Old 01-11-2015, 03:59 AM
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Interesting. But i think Parliament could and should have limited the Apanage until a possible remarriage of Alexandra. Or to the point Felix turns 18.
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  #144  
Old 01-11-2015, 05:07 AM
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It ballfes me that an egalitarian society as Danmark allows it that spouses have part of the husband's apanage. The Dutch do it better: already since WWII (and formally vested in law in 1972) is regulated that the King, the future King, the abdicated King and their spouses get an apanage from the State. (Then) Princess Máxima and now Queen Máxima has an own independent income which is set by law and fixed to the general pay rise of civil servants. An example the Danes should follow, in my humble opinion.

I am no Danish taxpayer but it is indeed astonishing that the common Dane in the street has to fund the life of Mrs Jacob Jørgensen indeed. Note that in the Dutch situation even the equivalent of Prince Joachim (Prince Consantijn) does not get any cent from the State, let alone a former wife...
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  #145  
Old 01-11-2015, 05:15 AM
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That does seem unfair and it should have stopped when she remarried. Surely it won't go on forever !!


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  #146  
Old 01-11-2015, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I am no Danish taxpayer but it is indeed astonishing that the common Dane in the street has to fund the life of Mrs Jacob Jørgensen indeed. Note that in the Dutch situation even the equivalent of Prince Joachim (Prince Consantijn) does not get any cent from the State, let alone a former wife...
What is unfair in the dutch example is that Princess Margriet who is a hardowrking member of the RF for many years has never got any cent from the State.
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  #147  
Old 01-11-2015, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
What is unfair in the dutch example is that Princess Margriet who is a hardowrking member of the RF for many years has never got any cent from the State.
I agree, she has never received anything from the state.
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  #148  
Old 01-11-2015, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It ballfes me that an egalitarian society as Danmark allows it that spouses have part of the husband's apanage. The Dutch do it better: already since WWII (and formally vested in law in 1972) is regulated that the King, the future King, the abdicated King and their spouses get an apanage from the State. (Then) Princess Máxima and now Queen Máxima has an own independent income which is set by law and fixed to the general pay rise of civil servants. An example the Danes should follow, in my humble opinion.

I am no Danish taxpayer but it is indeed astonishing that the common Dane in the street has to fund the life of Mrs Jacob Jørgensen indeed. Note that in the Dutch situation even the equivalent of Prince Joachim (Prince Consantijn) does not get any cent from the State, let alone a former wife...
I think it's pretty clear, also to Joachim, that he will be the last of his line to receive an apanage. When his children do some official work for the DRF it will probably be in the form of an expense account. A bit like Benedikte. Even though it's called an apanage, it is really an expense account, because it sure isn't enough for her to live a comfortable life when all the salaries and bills are paid. I.e. secretary and LiW.
As for Joachim and his apanage. I think he should keep it. He may be financially secure now, but he has worked hard both for the DRF as well as looking after his estate and as he intends to work even more for the DRF in the future he deserves his apanage. And apart from that it's good to have an experienced adult to back M&F up. - Also, we have to keep in mind that we are only a plane crash away from Joachim becoming Rigsforstander for Christian.
In short: Joachim's apanage is peanuts. - Not least in comparison to the greed displayed by other top civil servants.

As for Alexandra. I believe we are getting to the end of the line for her apanage. I don't believe the politicians will take it away from her, if she refuse to "volunteer" to drop her apanage but she will get some bad press in that case.
Alexandra got a very fair deal, she has had a good, comfortable and secure life. So there will be few to defend her and even less to defend her after Felix turns eighteen.
Again, the amount she receives is peanuts but it matters symbolically. That is: You don't have to take something, just because you are entitled to it.

But I think we should also be careful about tampering too much with the apanage of the DRF. So far the apanage defines the working members of the DRF. Remove or decrease it and Joachim could justifiably say: I ain't working no more!
In other words: Don't fix a system that works.

As for spouses. Well, as you may recall it was after PH got a fit that he got a separate percentage of QMII's apanage, which is fair enough.
That's also why Mary gets her 10 % from Frederik's apanage.
I don't know why our Marie doesn't have a similar arrangement. The difference is probably the same anyway. Perhaps Joachim has ensured that a percentage of his apanage is automatically transferred to Marie's personal account? That's what I would do in his case.

We have discussed it before. De facto an apanage is to cover the running of the company called the DRF, including salaries for the staff and "management". In my estimation that "salary" isn't more than if the DRF didn't have their own investments they would only live a very comfortable life but not a luxurious life.
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  #149  
Old 01-11-2015, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
What is unfair in the dutch example is that Princess Margriet who is a hardowrking member of the RF for many years has never got any cent from the State.
But it is Princess Margriet's very own personal choice not to pursue an own career. All three sisters of Queen Beatrix knew that they would never get any cent from the Dutch taxpayer. All three of them are multi-millionaires anyway and in the lucky circumstances to make their very own choices.

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  #150  
Old 01-11-2015, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
But it is Princess Margriet's very own personal choice not to pursue an own career. All three sisters of Queen Beatrix knew that they would never get any cent from the Dutch taxpayer. All three of them are multi-millionaires anyway and in the lucky circumstances to make their very own choices.

afaik, in the NL P.Margriet does get her expenses paid when she represents, so it's not like she does everything pro-bono.
Don't get me wrong, i think it's quite fair that she does, but if you use the dutch situation as a comparison to the danish one, i think in the end there's not that different: she gets her expenses paid even if it's called differently.
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  #151  
Old 01-11-2015, 08:47 AM
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I think the fact its now revealed the Queen suggested the allowance will put more pressure on Alexandra to give it up. Personally I think Joachim should give her some of the money from the sale of Schackenborg in return for her giving up the allowance.
It really is a no win situation IMO, on one hand I can see that really its a bit unfair that she gets an allowance for not doing anything but on the other hand she did work before she became a Princess and probably would have being doing well if she hadn't had to give it up.
I'd be interested to know if she wasn't allowed to work after the divorce (hence why she was given an allowance) or if it was choice. If it was made clear that the RF and the Government didn't want a former member of the Royal Family working for a business then I can see why they gave her an allowance.
Think about all the trouble with Sarah Ferguson after she left the British RF, maybe they wanted to avoid scandals like that.
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  #152  
Old 01-11-2015, 09:13 AM
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I think you might be right. Wanting to avoid what happened with Sarah


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  #153  
Old 01-11-2015, 09:31 AM
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The other issues is that at the time of their separation then divorce people including the Royal Court probably thought of Alexandra being around for much longer, the single mum of two Prince's, another in effect 'royal lady' doing a few duties here and there. However once she and then Joachim re-married her role became even less and the ex-wife, re-married herself and then Joachim with a new wife and thus Princess to take on Alexandra's old role.

I know its going off topic but its similar to what people have said about the 'pre-nup' of Mary and Fred when the part about her getting her own property like Alexandra did was taken out. People said that as she was the mother to a future king she would get an official residence etc, but people don't look further ahead, what is then Fred re-married to someone just as popular etc? People would moan then that Fred's ex-wife was getting state support.

Its hard to find a perfect solution when you don't know what the future holds.
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  #154  
Old 01-11-2015, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
afaik, in the NL P.Margriet does get her expenses paid when she represents, so it's not like she does everything pro-bono.
Don't get me wrong, i think it's quite fair that she does, but if you use the dutch situation as a comparison to the danish one, i think in the end there's not that different: she gets her expenses paid even if it's called differently.
No it is not the same. Princess Mary gets part of her husband's allowance. Princess Máxima got her own allowance established by law: an own independent budget with an A-component (the salary) and a B-component (the functional costs), independently administered by the office of the King's Treasurer and under ministerial accountability. That is really a big difference. No longer the consort depends on the spouse (a lesson learned from several financial miss-steps by consorts).

Every member of the Dutch Royal House 'doing' engagemements in that function gets the expenses re-imbursed. But Princess Laurentien getting her dress for Prinsjesdag paid is really not the same as having an income, of course.

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  #155  
Old 01-11-2015, 10:12 AM
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I know its going off topic but its similar to what people have said about the 'pre-nup' of Mary and Fred when the part about her getting her own property like Alexandra did was taken out. People said that as she was the mother to a future king she would get an official residence etc, but people don't look further ahead, what is then Fred re-married to someone just as popular etc? People would moan then that Fred's ex-wife was getting state support.

Its hard to find a perfect solution when you don't know what the future holds.
Yes, but she would still be, as you said, the mother of the future king.

I don't think there's any reason why Joachim should give more money to Alexandra. They've been divorced for 10 years now. Alexandra already got an expensive house from him when they divorced.
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  #156  
Old 01-11-2015, 10:27 AM
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I agree re Mary being the mother of a future King but if fred's new wife was just a popular in time there would be some moaning about Mary being given an allowance.

Didn't Count Ingolf get an allowance for life as well?

I don't think there's any easy answer to any of it to be honest.
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  #157  
Old 01-11-2015, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post

[...]

Didn't Count Ingolf get an allowance for life as well?

[...]
That was a total different situation. Ingolf's father -Hereditary Prince Knud- was the No 1 in the line of succession. When the Hereditary Prince (at that moment 54 years old and his whole life a full-time royal) lost his position in the line of succession by changing the Constitution, the Danish Government compensated the Hereditary Prince and his successor for the loss of the financial arrangements connected to their positions. After all Prince Knud was destined to be King, his son Prince Ingolf then becoming the Crown Prince.

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  #158  
Old 01-11-2015, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
I agree re Mary being the mother of a future King but if fred's new wife was just a popular in time there would be some moaning about Mary being given an allowance.

Didn't Count Ingolf get an allowance for life as well?

I don't think there's any easy answer to any of it to be honest.
Yes, as a reimbursement for lost status. That was no secret. But he did very little actual work for his apanage.
Oddly enough I rarely heard anyone complain about Ingolf and Knud's apanage. Perhaps because people thought it was fair?

Alexandra was/is also a special case but it has only been since she remarried, became a commoner and hasn't taken a job while still living very comfortably that the debate regarding her apanage has started.
Combined with the articles last year that Alexandra has, shall we say, been less active in several of her protections the pendulum has now swung the other way. In the sense that perhaps Alexandra was the one to blame for the failed marriage, that is certainly an often seen argument for those who wish to strip Alexandra of the apanage. (Personally I believe it takes two to ruin most marriages). That doesn't mean Joachim has become popular in the eyes of the public (and he probably never will), just that the finger of blame has shifted towards Alexandra.
So PR-wise Alexandra would be fighting a losing battle should she insist on receiving her apanage, despite being "advised" to give it up.
It will be very interesting to see what will happen once Felix turns eighteen.
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  #159  
Old 01-11-2015, 10:58 AM
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If Count Ingolf was given an allowance for life because he lost his'status' isn't that really just the same as Alexandra loosing her status as Princess? Yes the reasons are different but its the same principle, an allowance to make up for loss in status.

Unless we know exactly what was said behind closed doors to Alexandra after her divorce we can't really judge. Maybe she was asked to keep a low profile or not to take up a business role/job? It certainly seems odd that someone who was regarded as the 'work horse' of the Royal Family at one point was then under fire for not doing enough. Either her work ethic changed rapidly in a few years or there was another reason.
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Old 01-11-2015, 11:48 AM
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That certainly applied while Alexandra was still unmarried and to an extent still does as she is the mother of two Princes who live in her home.

Count Ingolf is different in the sense that him losing his status was not because of something he had done. He was literally blameless.
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