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  #181  
Old 01-16-2015, 08:41 PM
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Well...we know (or think we know! LOL!) how much Joachim and Marie are worth. But do we know the worth of Queen Margrethe, Prince Henrik and CP Frederik? Chateau de Cayx is private property which will go to CP Frederik. I think Prince Henrik stated that a few years ago. How large is Chateau de Cayx compared to Shackenborg? I wonder what is the current value of the chateau. And I wonder if the majority of Margrethe's and Henrik's assets will go to CP Frederik as future king, given that Joachim has sold Schackenborg and secured the futures of himself, Marie's and Joachim's 4 children.
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  #182  
Old 01-17-2015, 03:26 AM
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Sådan vil kongehuset undgå ny Alexandra-sag: Joachim forgylder prinsesse Marie - Nyheder | www.bt.dk

Gave til 17,25 millioner kroner: Derfor forgylder Joachim prinsesse Marie - Nyheder | www.bt.dk

Sådan fik Joachim råd til milliongave til Marie - Nyheder | www.bt.dk

The big story in the papers today is how it has been reveled that Joachim has quietly handed over half their new house to our Marie.
That means Marie is worth 17.5 million DKK - not counting her own fortune, possible inheritance and private investments.

Commentators argue that the DRF in this was want's to avoid a new Alexandra. I.e. an ex-royal who is subsidised for life by the taxpayers without any obligations in return.
In this way the DRF does not have to pursuade the Parliament to grant Marie an apanage in case of a divorce - with all the bad PR that entails.
In other words: Marie will after a divorce have a handsome fortune to live of enabling her to have a living standard that is equivalent to her present.

There is also a review of Joachim's finances before and after the sale of Schackenborg.
Before the sale of Schackenborg he or rather the estate had a debt of 42 million DKK.
Schackenborg was sold for 100 million.
Of these Joachim paid out the debt and used the 13 million DKK he and Alexandra got as a public wedding present as a down payment so to speak in the newly founded Shcackenborg Foundation.
Detracting other expenses Joachim ended up with a surplus of 45 million DKK.
Of these he has spend 35 million as cash payment for his new home.

But he still has a lot of assets in Southern Jutland.
Land worth some 66 million DKK and real estate worth some 9.9 million DKK.

So if we add all these figures up, Joachim at present has a fortune of up to 10 million DKK
plus real estate and land worth a total of some 75 million DKK.
Not counting inheritance and other private investments.
Marie alone is worth 17.5 million in real easte.
So the couple J&M are worth some 90 million DKK at present.

An online survey in BT reveals that 68 % think it's okay for Joachim to give Marie half the house.
23 % believe she shouldn't get anything in case of a divorce.
9 % don't know.

- I don't think they have to lie sleepless at night from worrying about their finances for the rest of their lives.
Regarding the house, I actually think it's a sensible and logical move. To add to that, it prevents another Alex situation. If Joachim and Marie should divorce, she's secure and no apanage would be burdened on the taxpayer.
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  #183  
Old 01-17-2015, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Terri Terri View Post
Well...we know (or think we know! LOL!) how much Joachim and Marie are worth. But do we know the worth of Queen Margrethe, Prince Henrik and CP Frederik? Chateau de Cayx is private property which will go to CP Frederik. I think Prince Henrik stated that a few years ago. How large is Chateau de Cayx compared to Shackenborg? I wonder what is the current value of the chateau. And I wonder if the majority of Margrethe's and Henrik's assets will go to CP Frederik as future king, given that Joachim has sold Schackenborg and secured the futures of himself, Marie's and Joachim's 4 children.
Your guess would be as good as mine.
I heard a figure some years ago estimating the fortune of the Regent Couple, investments and all, as being around 50 million DKK. Give or take.
I think that's a very plausible figure.
They are certainly not as wealthy as the NRF or SRF.

Keep in mind that Marselisborg is virtually impossible to sell. It would cause an uproar!
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  #184  
Old 01-17-2015, 04:37 AM
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In some Royal Houses, the incomes are purely functional. To give an example, see the Dutch situation. Since 1972 it is arranged by law that the following persons receive an income:

1 The King
2 The spouse of The King

3 The future King (from the age of 18)
4 The spouse of the future King

5 The former King
6 The spouse of the former King

The Dutch lawmaker considered it "not desirable" that these (at maximum) six royals are "financially dependent to third parties". Read: they can not pursue an own career, can not have an own business or stand on a payroll of a company or organization.

This means that, at current, only King Willem-Alexander, Queen Máxima and Princess Beatrix receive an income from the state of the Netherlands. For all other royals outside this group: they have to provide in their own living. This is a very clear and logic choice the Dutch made, already in 1972 by the way. This also shows that granting an apanage is not dependent on daily whims but vested in law.

I think it would be good when the Danes would consider a similar act. This means that whatever the political majority in Parliament, whoever is the Prime Minister, no matter the personal popularity (or lack of it) of a defined group of royals, they receive an automatically indexed income vested by law. No Bill, no Decree, no debate, no vote needed. It brings clarity and transparency.
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  #185  
Old 01-17-2015, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Your guess would be as good as mine.
I heard a figure some years ago estimating the fortune of the Regent Couple, investments and all, as being around 50 million DKK. Give or take.
I think that's a very plausible figure.
They are certainly not as wealthy as the NRF or SRF.
But what if the Regent Couple is worth twice that? Or three times the estimated fortune, and are just happy give the impression of being "relatively poor" compared to other royal families? What are the "guesses" based on?

If Mærsk Mc-Kinney Møller was in charge of their investments for a long time and now Fritz Schur, they probably haven't done very badly.

And what Frederik and Mary have or don't have, we really don't know.
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  #186  
Old 01-17-2015, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
But what if the Regent Couple is worth twice that? Or three times the estimated fortune, and are just happy give the impression of being "relatively poor" compared to other royal families? What are the "guesses" based on?

If Mærsk Mc-Kinney Møller was in charge of their investments for a long time and now Fritz Schur, they probably haven't done very badly.

And what Frederik and Mary have or don't have, we really don't know.
And as long as the monarchy exists in Denmark, Frederik and Mary have no worries about having a private fortune or not. They use palaces provided and maintenanced for them, they use transportation provided for them, they use security provided for them, they use staff provided for them, they receive an annual dotation, what more would one ask for?

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  #187  
Old 01-17-2015, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
And as long as the monarchy exists in Denmark, Frederik and Mary have no worries about having a private fortune or not. They use palaces provided and maintenanced for them, they use transportation provided for them, they use security provided for them, they use staff provided for them, they receive an annual dotation, what more would one ask for?

They employ the staff themselves, it's not provided for them, and IIRC, about 50% of the annual apanage goes to wages alone. And on top of that maintenance and running of the court etc etc.
The transport (cars and the maintenance) is provided and bought by themselves.

I'm sure Frederik and Mary are fine at the moment, yes. I was actually thinking of their possible private wealth and/or personal investments.

As long as Denmark is a monarchy yes. It seems, that should Denmark become a republic tomorrow, the youngest son Joachim is in a much better position that the Crown Prince. This is also speculation, but that's the impression you get, whether it's actually true or not. I think it's a bit odd. I don't think it's ever been reported that Frederik and Mary own a property of any kind.
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  #188  
Old 01-17-2015, 05:22 AM
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Well, in the hypothetic situation that Denmark becomes a republic, the Government will be sure that prudent and civilized arrangements are made towards the ex-King. Probably one of the historic royal estates will be given to him, eventully an apanage will be arranged like was done for Prince Knud and his son, etc.

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  #189  
Old 01-17-2015, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
In some Royal Houses, the incomes are purely functional. To give an example, see the Dutch situation. Since 1972 it is arranged by law that the following persons receive an income:

1 The King
2 The spouse of The King

3 The future King (from the age of 18)
4 The spouse of the future King

5 The former King
6 The spouse of the former King

The Dutch lawmaker considered it "not desirable" that these (at maximum) six royals are "financially dependent to third parties". Read: they can not pursue an own career, can not have an own business or stand on a payroll of a company or organization.

This means that, at current, only King Willem-Alexander, Queen Máxima and Princess Beatrix receive an income from the state of the Netherlands. For all other royals outside this group: they have to provide in their own living. This is a very clear and logic choice the Dutch made, already in 1972 by the way. This also shows that granting an apanage is not dependent on daily whims but vested in law.

I think it would be good when the Danes would consider a similar act. This means that whatever the political majority in Parliament, whoever is the Prime Minister, no matter the personal popularity (or lack of it) of a defined group of royals, they receive an automatically indexed income vested by law. No Bill, no Decree, no debate, no vote needed. It brings clarity and transparency.
The main difference is that the NLRF is rich in it's own right.

If the DRF had a similar fortune we wouldn't be discussing the apanage to Alexandra.
Otherwise it would be a good solution.
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  #190  
Old 01-17-2015, 09:55 AM
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That is the big difference between the Danish Royals and others in Europe, they don't have (or aren't believed to have) a large private wealth to fall back on. In effect they live the life of the richest people only because of their allowances and the properties and other resources made available by the state.
Whilst no Royals would be able to keep up the whole 'Royal show' from private funds most others have some private houses and money to fall back into a comfortable life with. It doesn't seem that the Danish do. Unless of course they are much more wealthy than they've led us to believe.
Also, in regard to the apanage for Alexandra, bear in mind that even in the BRF the divorce settlements for Diana and Sarah Ferguson were largely funded by QEII and not her sons.
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  #191  
Old 01-24-2015, 06:42 AM
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BT has some more on what happened behind the scenes when Joachim and Alexandra got divorced: Kongehuset taler ud: Sådan blev Alexandra forgyldt - Politik | www.bt.dk

The head of the DRF's economy, Søren W. Kruse, speaks for the first time about what happened prior to the agreement that ended up with securing Alexandra her apanage: "I discussed the upcoming divorce in the beginning of of August 2004 with the top management within the court and we telephoned Statsministeriet (The PM's office) with the purpose of having a meeting with the management at Statsministeriet as soon as convenient.
We had not tried a similar instance like this before in the DRF (*) and it's standard procedure in a case that is so grave/serious that we always contact Statsministeriet", says Søren W. Kruse who himself took part in the confidential meeting with head of department (in Statsministeriet), Nils Bergstein and deputy head, Steen Frimodt Nielsen later.

officially it was the then Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen who in 2004 suggested a fixed yearly payment earmarked for Alexandra, so that she after the divorce should't support herself (i.e. work) or live of money from the DRF (i.e. being dependant). But before the political agreement about apanage was passed there were secret negotiations between the management of Statsministeriet and the court.
Initially Statsministeriet offered one million DKK but that wasn't enough to cover Alexandra's expences.


-----

Very interesting! Not so much the details but that such a high ranking official speaks out. He wouldn't do that without an okay from QMII and Statsministeriet and that means the current PM.
Are they putting pressure on Alexandra? And is that a good idea?

(*) The last divorce within the DRF was in the 1800's and that was under completely different political, economical and constitutional circumstances.
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  #192  
Old 01-24-2015, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post

Very interesting! Not so much the details but that such a high ranking official speaks out. He wouldn't do that without an okay from QMII and Statsministeriet and that means the current PM.
Are they putting pressure on Alexandra? And is that a good idea?
interesting observation.
Even if they take it away now, I dont think Alexandra can complain. Joachim can now comfortably provide for his two sons
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  #193  
Old 01-24-2015, 05:12 PM
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O.K I'm going to play devils advocate here even though I agree with those who think that Alexandra does not require such an apanage now and the issue will get more difficult as time goes by!!!

Here goes.....

If I was in Alexandra's shoes now, I would think why should I have to give up my apanage? It was agreed on between the royal court and government. It was also part of my divorce settlement as Prince Joachim was in no position to offer monetary settlement after he provided funds to buy Alexandra's new house.

Far from thinking that this new information puts pressure on Alexandra to give up her apanage, I think it puts her in a better light because it was the royal house and the government who decided and agreed on the amount. They made the decision to grant her funds for life. So I don't think it is for Alexandra to give up the apanage, I think it is for the royal house and government to state if the apanage should end now or put an expiry date for Alexandra to receive the funds - which should have been done in 2004.

O.K. That's my 2 cents worth!
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  #194  
Old 01-24-2015, 05:21 PM
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Terri Terri you make good case from her point of view. I guess it depends if she really wants it.
And it has avoided a " Fergie " situation. Not that I think she would have ever gone down that path


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  #195  
Old 01-24-2015, 05:33 PM
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I agree that the Danish taxpayer should not have been saddled with providing an apanage to an ex-wife of the second son of the monarch. I do not know in what other monarchy that would have been allowed!

But hindsight is 20/20. In 2004, Countess Alexandra was well respected and the most popular member of the DRF and there was hardly any objections to her receiving an apanage at that time. As others have said before, it was entirely possible that the crown prince couple may not have any children (think of the Badouin and Fabiola situation in Belgium), and Alexandra could possible have became the mother of a future King.

I think as the Crown Prince Couple secured the succession, Prince Joachim re-married and had children, as well as Alexandra re-marrying herself, discussions should have taken place between the royal house and government to put an expiry date of Alexandra's apanage. As a matter of fact, those discussions should have started when Alexandra re-married!

EDIT:

I just thought of an irony in this situation. Princess Marie may fare better financially in a divorce from Joachim than Alexandra did!!!! And let's face it, given the dissatisfaction being caused by Alexandra still receiving an apanage from the state, there is no way that the Danish public would pay an apanage for a second ex-wife of Prince Joachim!!!! I think that would cause public protests and a call for a Danish republic!!!
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  #196  
Old 01-24-2015, 05:57 PM
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Terri Terri, I totally agree with your devil's advocate argument.

But I have one better...instead of negotiating when Alexandra remarried..it should be a part of the original agreement. Simply put the money should have been reduced if and when Alexandra remarried.

My rationale is that one would assume that a husband can contribute to the support of his wife. The reduced circumstances would than continue to support the children. The said support would reduce as the children reach the age of majority......first Nikolai and than Felix, so by the time Felix is 18....Alexandra would no longer receive support.

Much like alimony and child support in the States. A majority of alimony is determined for a specific period of time for a specific time. When the spouse remarries, the alimony is done.

Child support is a determined amount per child and continues until the child reaches 18. You are paid 600 per month for each child, with a total of 1200 a month for two children. When child A reaches 18, your new monthly payment is 600 for Child B. When Child B reaches 18, the money stops. Consideration might be noted for college education as well. As long as the parent has the financial means to do so.

I don't think an apanage will be available for Marie, as long as Joachim has the means to provide for her in the invent of a divorce, and based on what I have read here, he does... or am I reading this wrong.
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  #197  
Old 01-24-2015, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Terri Terri View Post
O.K I'm going to play devils advocate here even though I agree with those who think that Alexandra does not require such an apanage now and the issue will get more difficult as time goes by!!!

Here goes.....

If I was in Alexandra's shoes now, I would think why should I have to give up my apanage? It was agreed on between the royal court and government. It was also part of my divorce settlement as Prince Joachim was in no position to offer monetary settlement after he provided funds to buy Alexandra's new house.

Far from thinking that this new information puts pressure on Alexandra to give up her apanage, I think it puts her in a better light because it was the royal house and the government who decided and agreed on the amount. They made the decision to grant her funds for life. So I don't think it is for Alexandra to give up the apanage, I think it is for the royal house and government to state if the apanage should end now or put an expiry date for Alexandra to receive the funds - which should have been done in 2004.

O.K. That's my 2 cents worth!
I absolutely agree with you. If the queen wanted to be so generous when the original settlement was negotiated then she most likely had very good reasons. To re-neg on the settlement now would cost the Queen and/ or government lots of money. Countess Alexandra has all the reasons to be made whole even if the other parties to her settlement have changed their minds.
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  #198  
Old 01-25-2015, 04:59 AM
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More details are emerging today in regards to the financial settlement in connection with the divorce between Joachim and Alexandra: Se de afslørende mails: Alexandra tog af Joachims penge - Royale | www.bt.dk

The public announcement of the divorce came on 16th August 2004. Five days later, Søren Kruse the DRF head of economy send a letter to Statsministeriet addressed to deputy, Sten Frimodt Nielsen, with Alexandra's budget and a suggestion outlining how some of the money could be found by reducing Joachim's apanage:
"Hofmaskallatet (the DRF administration) has noted the Prime Ministers expression/indication of an adaptation of HRH Prince Joachim's current apanage in view of the changed circumstances".
- In other words there had already been talks behind the scenes.

The deputy in Statsministeriet, Sten Frimodt Nielsen replies:
"As discussed previously the idea is that the bill will lead up to (as in this being the aim) a reduction of Prince Joachim's apanage with an amount corresponding to the difference between one million DKK, which was originally intended for the Princess as a separate grant, and the apanage that in view of the budget for the Princess now will be presented to her, that 1.735.000 DKK". (*)

Søren Kruse at the court later on confirms that Joachim can make do with a reduced apanage. There is no suggestion of reducing any amount to Alexandra.
Søren Kruse writes: "Hofmarskallatet can confirm that it with the suggested reduction of Prince Joachim's apanage will be possible for the Prince to maintain his representative activities (i.e pay for salaries, administration and official travels) and continue a lifestyle appropriate of his status".

The DRF expert Lars Hovbakke is nor surprised that Alexandra's apanage was split between the state and Joachim: "They have probably feared the reactions if that was the total amount, without anything being detracted from Joachim. So it has probably been a concern for the public opinion. So they have put together a solution so that the rise in (the total for the whole DRF) the apanage didn't seem of that much".

- From a taxpapyer point of view it didn't make that big a difference. Joachim's apanage was raised when he married Alexandra and even though it was lowered after the divorce it was raised again when he married our Marie.
In a sense we can deduce that in the eyes of the state, the expences for having a wife of a second prince doing her duties was 700.000 DKK a year back in 2004. Quite a bargain I'd say considering how much she did and how high a profile she had.

(*) As with all official correspondence within the state administration this is written in chancellory style (or Sir Humprey style), i.e. in one sentence.
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  #199  
Old 01-25-2015, 10:25 AM
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A re-marriage should have been discussed beforehand. I wonder if Alex would have married Martin if her apanage had gone at the same time. Martin has made a really good deal, living off his wife's (= Joachim's/taxpayer's) money.
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  #200  
Old 01-25-2015, 10:41 AM
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Do we know for sure that Martin 'lives of his wife', just because he hasn't had any successful work released doesn't mean he isn't working and earning money.
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