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  #281  
Old 04-15-2015, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Tosca View Post
So Caroline wants them to get a civil marriage in Monaco, since prenuptials have no validity for the Italian Law, and in Italy a Catholic marriage is a form of marriage provided by the concordat, that is an agreement between the Italian State and the Vatican, which make religious marriages also recognised by the Italian Law. I'm sure they will opt for a so called marriage of conscience, meaning that it won't be recorded in the Italian registy office. Now, many a time Beatrice has publicly stated she's an atheist, so she shouldn't be allowed to get nearer any Sacraments, including marriage. But htis kind of things can be easily put right, especially when one has the right connections, and the money...
I've often wondered about that too. What priest in his right mind would give the Sacrament to an unrepentant atheist? That would be blasphemy. And only if Beatrice is a major hypocrite would she even approach the Eucharist as a non-believer.
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  #282  
Old 04-15-2015, 01:10 PM
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Pierre may want a Catholic wedding. Two people are getting married. I think all of the Grimaldis have had their civil ceremony in Monaco. An Italian wedding may not be recognized in Monaco. It also gives them legal control if there is a divorce.
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  #283  
Old 04-15-2015, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Tosca View Post
So Caroline wants them to get a civil marriage in Monaco, since prenuptials have no validity for the Italian Law, and in Italy a Catholic marriage is a form of marriage provided by the concordat, that is an agreement between the Italian State and the Vatican, which make religious marriages also recognised by the Italian Law. I'm sure they will opt for a so called marriage of conscience, meaning that it won't be recorded in the Italian registy office. Now, many a time Beatrice has publicly stated she's an atheist, so she shouldn't be allowed to get nearer any Sacraments, including marriage. But htis kind of things can be easily put right, especially when one has the right connections, and the money...
If Pierre wants a catholic wedding and the wedding sacrament, it can be done with a special kind of dispense to allow him to marry a self-proclamed atheist. It has been already done for many people without any connections nor wealth. It would however be interesting if Beatrice would receive Holy Communion at her wedding. But being an atheist does not formally forbid her to get a catholic wedding with mass and sacrament. It has already be done, it will be be donne in the future for any couple requesting it.
If neither of them is really interested in the sacramental meaning of a catholic wedding, although I do fully support the point that the Church is not and should not be a parties slot machine, well, let the Holy Spirit act and give his graces to the happy couple. He is the one who masters all of this, not us, and we humans are not the one calling our brothers to account, except if some posters here are priests.
  #284  
Old 04-15-2015, 03:22 PM
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I know of many, many atheists who married in churches to please their families. They couldn't care less about the ceremony, they're atheists before, during and after the service. There are times when it's best to give in and keep your beliefs to yourself so all the traditional, conservative old people in the family are happy. Give and take. Some people might see it as hypocrisy, for atheists like us and maybe Beatrice, it's simple compromise. :)
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  #285  
Old 04-15-2015, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Sancia View Post
If Pierre wants a catholic wedding and the wedding sacrament, it can be done with a special kind of dispense to allow him to marry a self-proclamed atheist. It has been already done for many people without any connections nor wealth. It would however be interesting if Beatrice would receive Holy Communion at her wedding. But being an atheist does not formally forbid her to get a catholic wedding with mass and sacrament. It has already be done, it will be be donne in the future for any couple requesting it.
If neither of them is really interested in the sacramental meaning of a catholic wedding, although I do fully support the point that the Church is not and should not be a parties slot machine, well, let the Holy Spirit act and give his graces to the happy couple. He is the one who masters all of this, not us, and we humans are not the one calling our brothers to account, except if some posters here are priests.
As I know, all the siblings of Beatrice have had a catholic wedding and always in the Borromean islands. So, Pierre's and Beatrice's wedding in her family's island isn't a surprise. It's a tradition for Borromeo family. In the other hand, the members of the monegasque princely family have both civil and religious wedding. The civil wedding takes place in the prncely palace (throne room). For example: Rainier and Grace, Caroline, Albert etc.
I have also noticed that Pierre is very close to Beatice's family. He feels like his home. He is friend with his brothers in law, especially with Elkann. I also remember that 3 years ago, in July of 2013, when Carolne and Alexandra were in New York, he and Bea had invited Bea's father in Pacha. I had seen their pics in a thread of The RoyalForums.
  #286  
Old 04-15-2015, 03:44 PM
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Why is this now a problem when it's Beatrice? A lot of atheists do marry in a church to please their spouse and families. Jeez...
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  #287  
Old 04-15-2015, 04:16 PM
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It is not a problem with Beatrice Borromeo or Pierre Casiraghi, I raised the same concern with my own sister. Catholic wedding is a sacrament. The respect of religious rituals should IMO imply that one asks for it only when he believes in them. No difference between princess Caroline of Monaco's son and mr Jean Dupont.
  #288  
Old 04-15-2015, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by moby View Post
I know of many, many atheists who married in churches to please their families. They couldn't care less about the ceremony, they're atheists before, during and after the service. There are times when it's best to give in and keep your beliefs to yourself so all the traditional, conservative old people in the family are happy. Give and take. Some people might see it as hypocrisy, for atheists like us and maybe Beatrice, it's simple compromise. :)

Your solution also opens the door to an easy, no hassle annulment in the future if either party desires it. Because according to Catholic teaching if either party does not believe in the concept of Christian marriage as a covenant between God and the couple, the sacramental aspect of the relationship is null and void from the beginning. Simply a civil contract and nothing more.


The idea of an atheist marrying in church, even as a compromise, is a violation of the meaning of sacramental marriage on every level, imo.
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  #289  
Old 04-15-2015, 06:30 PM
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From a Catholic perspective, that's definitely understandable. From an atheist's perspective, a ceremony is nothing more than going through the motions of tradition, no different from somebody going for a wedding performed by a shaman, for instance. A civil wedding is all that matters.

Ok, mods, I know this isn't the place for it. This is my last on this topic, but I felt the need to speak up about people's notions of hypocrisy. :)
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  #290  
Old 04-16-2015, 07:11 AM
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I see perfectly well that Beatrice couldn't care less about the religious ceremony , but I agree with Sancia and Moonmaiden, although not being myself a practicing Catholic. Soccer player Antonio Cassano has always stated he's an atheist in public, and got married in the church to please his wife, but he didn't take the Communion.

However Beatrice is marrying into a Catholic reigning family and traditions are to be respected, at least, should their marriage go to the dogs, this will give Pierre an excuse to get an anulment. Gad forbid!

capri: the marriage of Carlo Ludovico took place on an island, but it was in Pantelleria (Sicily). If I remember it correctly John Elkann is jewish like his father and brother, and surely he needed a dispense to get married in the church, like his father did in order to wed Margherita Agnelli.

Last but not least, talking about hypocrisy, guess who said she was a communist and live in unrestrained luxury; Montecarlo is a horrible place and sucks; noble titles are a bunch of stupid things; was an atheist and will be getting married in the church; she wanted to marry a worker?
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  #291  
Old 04-16-2015, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Tosca View Post
I see perfectly well that Beatrice couldn't care less about the religious ceremony , but I agree with Sancia and Moonmaiden, although not being myself a practicing Catholic. Soccer player Antonio Cassano has always stated he's an atheist in public, and got married in the church to please his wife, but he didn't take the Communion.

However Beatrice is marrying into a Catholic reigning family and traditions are to be respected, at least, should their marriage go to the dogs, this will give Pierre an excuse to get an anulment. Gad forbid!

capri: the marriage of Carlo Ludovico took place on an island, but it was in Pantelleria (Sicily). If I remember it correctly John Elkann is jewish like his father and brother, and surely he needed a dispense to get married in the church, like his father did in order to wed Margherita Agnelli.

Last but not least, talking about hypocrisy, guess who said she was a communist and live in unrestrained luxury; Montecarlo is a horrible place and sucks; noble titles are a bunch of stupid things; was an atheist and will be getting married in the church; she wanted to marry a worker?

The judaïsme goes to kids through the mother not the father. The Jewish liberals accept kids from a non Jewish mother but the traditional Jews don't. I do not know how John Elcan has been raised but I think to marry into a Catholic Church you have a least having been baptized and maybe done the confirmation. I think baptisms is mandatory. Maybe John Elcan has been baptized otherwise his wedding is not valid towards the Catholic Church.
Back to Pierre even if the bride has declared herself so called atheist in tees social cercles it is impossible to avoid a church wedding. Do not forget that Pierre is ranked in the line of succession. Far behind but ranked. His children have to come from a dynast wedding for the Monaco law.
Last but not least point. Very few brides even very atheist resist to a magnificent wedding gown. And in the City Hall impossible to shine with a real wedding fairy tale gown.
  #292  
Old 04-16-2015, 10:52 AM
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Thanks for the nth lesson aimed at me Fandy! But I'm afraid you're wrong this time: the Elkanns, are jewish, and Alain and Margherita Agnelli married in the church. There are plenty of photos around. Lapo is jewish by his own admission. The only Catholic among the Elkanns is Ginevra John and Lapo's sister.

Jewish, Muslims, Protestants aso are allowed to marry a Catholic person in the church, provided they are given a special dispense from the bishop. Besides they must swear they'll raise their offsprings in the Catholic faith, and so are required the atheists. Only the Orthodox don't need a dispense.

As for Beatrice - even though you'll never accept this - she's always openly bragged of her being an atheist, both in TV shows and interviews released to Italy's major newspapers.

Margherita's religious wedding
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  #293  
Old 04-16-2015, 11:31 AM
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Last but not least point. Very few brides even very atheist resist to a magnificent wedding gown. And in the City Hall impossible to shine with a real wedding fairy tale gown.
My atheist friends had really great wedding gowns and they didn't asked for a church wedding just to have great pictures. It didn't prevent them to shine in a magnificent reception place.
  #294  
Old 04-16-2015, 12:12 PM
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I'm sorry to contraddict You Tosca, but Alain Elkann and Magherita Agnelli Wedding was only civil and was held in the City Hall OF Villar Perosa. John, Lapo and Ginevra are catholics. Lapo in an interview told The press that he would like to go deep in Jewish religion. They both have been baptized as Catholics.
  #295  
Old 04-16-2015, 12:55 PM
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Is the future wedding officially confirmed? Or I have missed something?
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  #296  
Old 04-16-2015, 04:02 PM
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Is the future wedding officially confirmed? Or I have missed something?
No, it wans't. However, Beatrice replied a no comment on a interview, which sounded like a yes!
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  #297  
Old 04-16-2015, 11:33 PM
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Lapo Elkann was baptized Catholic as were all of his siblings. As an adult he has decided to embrace Judaism instead which is his father's faith.

To have a religious ceremony just because you want to be the center of attention in an elaborate bridal gown is unnecessary. George Clooney-an apostate Catholic-at least had the good taste and the integrity not to go through a sham Church wedding. He was married in a very lavish civil ceremony in a hotel.
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  #298  
Old 04-20-2015, 09:30 AM
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If Mr. Casiraghi or Ms. Borromeo was baptized as a Catholic and would like the Catholic Church to acknowledge their marriage, they would need to have a Catholic wedding or receive a dispensation from a bishop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
I've often wondered about that too. What priest in his right mind would give the Sacrament to an unrepentant atheist? That would be blasphemy. And only if Beatrice is a major hypocrite would she even approach the Eucharist as a non-believer.
Catholic priests are permitted to officiate at weddings of Catholics to non-Christians, but the marriage is only considered a sacrament if both spouses have been baptized.
  #299  
Old 04-20-2015, 10:17 AM
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Catholic priests are permitted to officiate at weddings of Catholics to non-Christians, but the marriage is only considered a sacrament if both spouses have been baptized.
Not really. Indeed, a dispensation can be given to the non-baptized spouse so that the wedding is sacramental.
  #300  
Old 04-20-2015, 10:32 AM
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Not really. Indeed, a dispensation can be given to the non-baptized spouse so that the wedding is sacramental.
A dispensation would make the marriage valid but not sacramental to the Catholic Church.

When is marriage a sacrament? | Catholic Answers
FAQs | For Your Marriage
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