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  #21  
Old 05-18-2005, 11:15 AM
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Yes July 6 will bring very interesting news as well the days before July 12 or July 12 when the Heir might be announced.
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  #22  
Old 05-18-2005, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monaco70s
Yes July 6 will bring very interesting news as well the days before July 12 or July 12 when the Heir might be announced.
Caroline is the heir until Albert marries to make one of the children legitimate. Or marries another woman and has a child.
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  #23  
Old 05-18-2005, 11:31 AM
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I hope it hasn't been posted yet!

The Current Line of Succession



The line of succession is determined by application of the Constitution of 1962, as revised in 2002, the treaty of 2002 with France (cited in article 1 of the Constitution), the house laws of 1882 as modified in 2002, and by Monegasque law where applicable. From 1918 to 2002, the constitution and the treaty with France restricted the line of succession to the "direct or adoptive" line of the reigning Prince (art. 3 of the Treaty). Article 10 of the Constitution, as it read until 2002, excluded collateral succession, including the descent of Rainier's sister Antoinette as well as the Urachs and any other collateral branches.

The change to the succession laws in 2002

A law of 2 April 2002 modified article 10. Adoption is now ruled out, and the succession passes, upon death or abdication, to the direct legitimate descent of the previous prince, failing which to his siblings and their descent, failing which to a collateral heir chosen by the Regency Council and the Crown Council in agreement (the composition of the Crown Council is set in art. 75 of the constitution and includes 7 members appointed for 3 years, 4 nominated by the Prince and 3 by the legislature; the composition of the Regency Council is determined by the House laws).

Thus the throne can now pass from Albert II to his sisters and their children. The new law, however, restricts succession to persons holding Monegasque citizenship at the time of the demise of the previous prince. Laws governing Monegasque citizenship (which is no longer defined in the Constitution) should be promulgated soon.



Upon the accession of Albert II, Antoinette and her issue automatically ceased to be in the line of succession, but they remain potential heirs in the event of Rainier's line dying out completely.

At present, the order of succession (ignoring the restriction to persons who are Monegasque citizens at the time of the demise of the crown) is thus:
  1. HRH the Princess of Hanover (Princess Caroline, b. 23 Jan 1957), widow of Stefano Casiraghi (1960-90)
  2. Andrea Casiraghi (b. 8 Jun 1984)
  3. Pierre Casiraghi (b. 5 Sep 1987)
  4. Charlotte Casiraghi (b. 3 Aug 1986)
  5. Alexandra of Hanover (b. 20 July 1999)
  6. HSH Princess Stephanie (b. 1 Feb 1965), married June 1995 to Daniel Ducruet (b. 1964)
  7. Louis Ducruet (b. 26 Nov 1992)
  8. Pauline Ducruet (b. 4 May 1994)

Although Stephanie's children were born before her marriage, Monegasque civil law, like French law, provides that natural children are fully and completely legitimized by the marriage of their parents (article 227 of the Monegasque Civil Code states in part: "Les enfants nés hors mariage, autres que les enfants adultérins, sont légitimés par le mariage subséquent de leurs père et mère, lorsque ceux-ci les ont légalement reconnus avant leur mariage ou qu'ils les reconnaissent au moment de la célébration." while art. 229 states: "Les enfants légitimés par le mariage subséquent auront les mêmes droits que s'ils étaient nés de ce mariage"). They are thus apt to succeed. Stéphanie's last child Camille Marie Kelly Grimaldi (b. 15 Jul 1998) of undeclared father, is not (yet) legitimate and thus not in line. Rainier III's sister is HSH Princess Antoinette, born Antoinette Grimaldi, who had three children, by Alexandre Noghès: Elisabeth-Ann (b. 1947), Christian (b. 1949), Christine (1951-89), They were legitimated by the marriage of their parents in 1951. They were named at birth Grimaldi, but by ordinance of November 15, 1951 their names were all changed to "de Massy" (source: Christian de Massy: Palace: my life in the royal family of Monaco. London: Bodley Head, 1986). They all had issue. They and their issue of monegasque nationality could be chosen as successors in case a reigning prince dies or abdicates without issue and without siblings having issue. However, they cannot be placed in an order of succession, since the choice of which collateral heir would be called to the throne is entirely up to the Regency Council and the Crown Council.

The House Law of 29 May 2002 provides additional regulations. The prince can abdicate. The heir (apparent or presumptive) is called Hereditary Prince. The hereditary prince can renounce his rights in writing. Marriages of members of the family must be approved by the prince; if a member marries without approval, he and his issue are excluded from the succession, unless the marriage ends without any issue before a demise of the crown. The house law also provides in detail for regencies.

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  #24  
Old 05-18-2005, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyMacAlpine
Caroline is the heir until Albert marries to make one of the children legitimate. Or marries another woman and has a child.
I know, but she could give up her rights like Princess Charlotte did back in 1944 in favor Rainier and Prince Louis was still alive.
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  #25  
Old 05-18-2005, 11:43 AM
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It's been suggested that Pr. Albert will sue Bunte, Paris Match and the Daily Mail, so I'm wondering if he's going to sue also his friend Silvana's Chi, which also carried the pix and the Nicole story. Do you know more, Grace?
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  #26  
Old 05-18-2005, 01:46 PM
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Cant Albert change the constitution if he so pleases. It may be alot of work but it can be done can't it?
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  #27  
Old 05-18-2005, 01:55 PM
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As far as I know, it hasn't been confirmed that Jazmin was there. I was hoping some people who watched the funeral would be able to say, but there is no reason to believe she would have been filmed anyway since most don't know who she is.
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  #28  
Old 05-18-2005, 02:15 PM
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Nicole claimed that she and her child went to the Palace to say goodbye to Rainier on the Palatine Chapel. Everything is so weird. In fact I saw a pic of Albert with Nicole together during a sports event in Monaco.
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  #29  
Old 05-18-2005, 02:41 PM
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Regarding Chi, I know nothing, but I guess if the magazine is not sued it will be because they merely bought the story from other mags; we'll have to wait and see...

As for Constitutional changes, I'm afraid there's still some little problems: Monaco is a sovereign State "to a certain extent"; according to the old Constitution, if the Grimaldis didn't produce an heir, the Principality would be annexed by France; that's why the Constitutional change of 2002 was in fact a treaty between France and Monaco. The problem is that the treaty has not yet been ratified by French National assembly (Parliament) so it is a difficult Costitutional issue which version of the Costitution would apply if the Sovereign throne was vacant before the treaty is actually ratified.

I'm sure the Constitution will soon be ratified, but at present things are in transition, and I sincerely doubt Albert will want or will be able to negotiate a new Constitutional change in the near future.

As for Caroline, I doubt anything will be announced in July as any statement would be viewd as an implicit admission that Albert has no intentions of producing a legitimate heir. Caroline or Andrea won't be appointed offcially heirs, even if they are at the moment...

I hope I was clear as the Costitutional thing was a little difficult to explain,

Kisses

ETA: one thing about Nicole: She wanted to be invited in place of her 2 year illegitimate (at the moment) son to a State funeral! She is either VERY naive or very cunning! I don't want to judge without knowing but the demand of a villa in Cote d'Azur makes me believe she is more cunning that naive, but I sincerely hope I'm wrong. Albert has a big problem to deal with...
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  #30  
Old 05-18-2005, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lashinka2002
Cant Albert change the constitution if he so pleases. It may be alot of work but it can be done can't it?
He can make changes if necessary. I don't think at this point there is a need for changes. His father and him worked for 6 years to meet all the conditions to become a member of the Counsel of Europe. I believe France had to agree to the changes as well. They have also become recognized by France as an independent that if the Grimaldi line should die out France will not incorporate it as so many reporters have said would happen when Albert wasn't getting married or having children. In many ways the new changes took the pressure off of Albert on a personal level to feel the demand to marry and produce.
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  #31  
Old 05-18-2005, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace
Regarding Chi, I know nothing, but I guess if the magazine is not sued it will be because they merely bought the story from other mags; we'll have to wait and see...

ETA: one thing about Nicole: She wanted to be invited in place of her 2 year illegitimate (at the moment) son to a State funeral! She is either VERY naive or very cunning! I don't want to judge without knowing but the demand of a villa in Cote d'Azur makes me believe she is more cunning that naive, but I sincerely hope I'm wrong. Albert has a big problem to deal with...
Chi like other European mags I'm sure bought the story as Bunte & Paris Match had the exclusive story with the photographs. After reading her interview I'm kind of shocked. First she says Albert is a very nice person and then that he doesn't love his kid and tries to portray herself as a victim. She also blames Rainier for all this mess.

I guess she's just an imposter or something because according to her she has the number of the birth certificate, and supposedly she lost the certificate, in any counry I imagine that as long as you have the number and a proof that you're the parent, you can go to the City Hall and get a new copy of a certificate.

She also mentioned a different lawyer that was not Thierry Lacoste and she says Albert gave her the Parisinian flat where she lives and sends her money. What does she want then? My opinion: fame and becoming the next Princess Of Monaco.

If she really wanted to do things for her child's benefit (being close to his dad), she could have fixed this matter privately and not make a big scandal.
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  #32  
Old 05-18-2005, 03:10 PM
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Its nice to get a man's point of view Monaco70s. Being a woman I am trying to figure it out. If you love a man, he is providing above and beyond the normal child support I honestly don't understand how she could have done it. To me that is the act of a woman that is seeking revenge. Is it just me or does anyone agree with me? I need to try and justify in my own mind whats been done.
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  #33  
Old 05-18-2005, 03:19 PM
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I agree she's kind of seeking "revenge" and fame...

Well if Albert provides the child love, emotional, and economic support that's what counts. The important thing is for the kid to feel loved.

It wouldn't make him a better or worse father if he does/doesn't recognize him as the next Prince of Monaco. The love a parent has for his children can only be expressed in love, support, and caring; not a royal title or luxurious material goods.
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  #34  
Old 05-18-2005, 04:04 PM
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Isn't it Andrea in the first pic Lady ?....Because I think when Al was little there was no such plastic - car yet :):)
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.... and so I thank you, Michael ...
  #35  
Old 05-18-2005, 04:15 PM
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i've been reading this thread and just waiting for the registration thing so i could post. It is very interesting to me that a lot of people are quick to paint nicole as everything negative - golddigger/bad mother/attention whore etc. I'm sorry but she has a child. Not just any child, a child by a great man. I can say if it were I would want my child to be recognized for what he is, a Grimaldi. He should have everything that comes with his heritage, he should not be hidden like some prize goat, like some surprise bonus item at the end of the party. He is a child and the first male child of Prince Albert II of Monaco at that. As for her bad parenting skills cuz of the paparazzi now, I believe that's Nicole's prerogative. Maybe she thought her son knowing who he was and being able to proudly stand up and declare himself so in the future was worth the small hassle now. I for one, haven't seen any extra pics of nicole, so i think she's doing a good job of shielding her family from paparazzi so far. I don't know why she would come out now rather than after the mourning period. The publicity would most likely be the same either way. I think I believe something else was at play, either she had a reason not to trust Albert, or someone was about to find out anyway, or she was backed to a wall. I believe that the story was about to be leaked anyway she just wanted a situation where SHE would be in control of it rather than some zealous journalist or magazine.
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  #36  
Old 05-18-2005, 04:41 PM
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Personally I didn't judge her actions, or her intentions, I judges her words. I found some of her answers in the interview very starnge, and somehow insincere, but I'm ready and willing to change my mind, if she is acting for the benefit of her child and not for her own sake.

And I keep thinking Albert was not very bright in this situation...

Kisses
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  #37  
Old 05-18-2005, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by libradoll
i've been reading this thread and just waiting for the registration thing so i could post. It is very interesting to me that a lot of people are quick to paint nicole as everything negative - golddigger/bad mother/attention whore etc. I'm sorry but she has a child. Not just any child, a child by a great man. I can say if it were I would want my child to be recognized for what he is, a Grimaldi. He should have everything that comes with his heritage, he should not be hidden like some prize goat, like some surprise bonus item at the end of the party. He is a child and the first male child of Prince Albert II of Monaco at that. As for her bad parenting skills cuz of the paparazzi now, I believe that's Nicole's prerogative. Maybe she thought her son knowing who he was and being able to proudly stand up and declare himself so in the future was worth the small hassle now. I for one, haven't seen any extra pics of nicole, so i think she's doing a good job of shielding her family from paparazzi so far. I don't know why she would come out now rather than after the mourning period. The publicity would most likely be the same either way. I think I believe something else was at play, either she had a reason not to trust Albert, or someone was about to find out anyway, or she was backed to a wall. I believe that the story was about to be leaked anyway she just wanted a situation where SHE would be in control of it rather than some zealous journalist or magazine.
Why, then, would she say that she wants to move to the French Riviera when she already has a place to live comfortably and money -- in my humble opinion, that seems like something that someone would do if they want to put pressure on a situation in some way.

I understand her wanting her child to be acknowledged for who he really is -- but why do that particular sort of thing? Maybe she thinks that Albert would forget about this child unless she herself is in his face or 'in the neighborhood' or maybe she thinks Al. will not visit the boy in the future or something? He has been very preoccupied for a couple of months -- I think she also stated that he has not visited since February. Maybe she has forgotten that if this is Albert of Monaco's child, he can get to the boy from anywhere on the planet.

I think she wants recognition for her son -- OK. Understandable. I also think she is mad and does not want to let go of the man.

Why would she need to 'represent' the boy at the funeral -- if Albert is the father, isn't he doing that already? If she's just trying to pay respects, why demand this type of thing -- why not just send flowers or condolences or something. Why try to be in their face?

I think just she does not want to let go of any royal access or special privelege she got in the past from being w/Albert.

Since she may not be with Albert in the future, if she can 'throw some weight around' in certain circles as the boy's mother, why would she not use that 'authority' to assure a better social status for herself and her other children (by association). Albert has the means to provide very nicely for this boy -- and he probably should/will.

While she may not be explicitly calculating some things, I think she does know what she's doing. She seems sincere and very articulate and intelligent. And I believe she does understand what she is doing.
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  #38  
Old 05-18-2005, 05:12 PM
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Remember that these two supposedly had some sort of a relationship before. I don't know about you but if i had an out-of-this-world relationship with say william (i wish but hey.....!) and had his child, it would be a little difficult in letting go. i mean who comes after william (oops i mean albert)? I'm not saying she's an angel, I just don't think her motives are overly negative like golddigger/bad mother. I think she wants all her son is entitled to and the fact that she might be a little enamored of Albert is fueling her even more. I certainly don't think she's vindictive.
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  #39  
Old 05-18-2005, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by libradoll
Remember that these two supposedly had some sort of a relationship before. I don't know about you but if i had an out-of-this-world relationship with say william (i wish but hey.....!) and had his child, it would be a little difficult in letting go. i mean who comes after william (oops i mean albert)? I'm not saying she's an angel, I just don't think her motives are overly negative like golddigger/bad mother. I think she wants all her son is entitled to and the fact that she might be a little enamored of Albert is fueling her even more. I certainly don't think she's vindictive.
I agree -- her comments in the article are strange.

I don't think she is those nasty things. She probably still has feeling for him (understandable), but she said all those aggressive things. She wants her son recognized & she may be feeling spiteful too -- so vents out all of that stuff to the splashiest magazine ever -- her business get plastered all over the world -- then she announces that she wants to live anonymous.

She wants her cake and to eat it too -- I agree she's probably upset w/the guy. But just because you have a baby does not mean a man will stay on.
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  #40  
Old 05-18-2005, 05:41 PM
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hummm very interesting

i've been reading this thread and just waiting for the registration thing so i could post. It is very interesting to me that a lot of people are quick to paint nicole as everything negative - golddigger/bad mother etc. I'm sorry but she has a child. Not just any child, a child by a great man. I can say if it were I would want my child to be recognized for what he is, a Grimaldi. He should have everything that comes with his heritage, he should not be hidden like some prize goat, like some surprise bonus item at the end of the party.
i just wanted to quote you libradoll and since im not the best on the pc i had to do it the old fashion way(cut & paste)
u have to remember that she agree to be his"special friend". she knew that he told people , she was the friend of his lover, if i'm not mistaken. she continue to sleep with him so an agreement was made. a verbal contract, because the two parties, albert and nicole, agree that they would sleep together and she would remaind hidden. when they had a child the agreement change a little. which was nicole & sons were to stay in the background and albert will provide for nicole & sons. now, who agree to play by albert's rules, nicole did, who agree for albert to take care of her with strings attach, nicole did and so who should have kept up her part of the agreement, nicole should have. would her child have less items than anyother royal child? i would like to think that would not be the case. i dont understand why she would move one child closer to a father and take the other children away from their father. i'm sure albert could have seen his child anytime. plus he has the means to visit he kid anytime he wanted to. so i still dont get and im sure i never will understand her reasoning for breaking the agreement between her and albert.
let me sit it straight i dont agree with all this sleeping around it hurts everyone involve, as u can see. this situation is nothing short of sad and it is a no win situation. plus this is not the age were u can play around with your reproduct gift like a toy. there are things out there that are easy to catch and there is no cure
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