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  #121  
Old 06-03-2006, 09:34 PM
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With all due respect Toledo, there would be very little honesty, remember this is a ROYAL forum. There might be attempts at being "broadminded", intellectual, etc. but so many of these posters are U.S citizens, with all due respect to how they have inculcated,indoctrinated,inbred, the psyche formulated and based on this R,trust me its there. (Let's touch on a little of it now and forget the rest unless the moderators choose to,) I've lived a life time. I'm not saying I was persecuted. I'm educated, an (was,ha,ha,) attractive, had the run of the mill in my social life. (Not bragging)

But its such an undercover,subliminal, denied thing that most people who share their lives with someone of another race don't like to touch it.
Race, Toledo is very emotional. That as a teenager I vowed and have kept pretty much to it, that I would not discuss religion, politics or race. And here I am. Enough. Good luck with it. Question: Do you really think anyone of those gross dehumanizers of the "immoral" NC will come forth with just a teeny bit of understanding? Let's see.
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  #122  
Old 06-03-2006, 10:10 PM
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You are also like me, to use Robert Heinlen's famous book title, a stranger in a strange land. Foreign born people who live in the USA see the crude reality here in a different way as people in other countries looking from the outside and locals born or raised here not used themselves to foreigners.

Racism here is a whole complicated issue dealing with guilt, anger, frustration and the ever present never-talk-about-it in the open. When I visit the mall and see couples of different races holding hands or with kids walking by, my attention goes to the looks they get from everyone around. But that's life and we move on. We can't change minds.
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  #123  
Old 06-03-2006, 10:14 PM
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Things are popping this week. We were just talking about,essentially feeling and understanding facts on the gut level. It seems, that Bunte reports NC's confirmation that she asked permission to have Alex babptized in the chapel in MC. Why wouldn't he deny it. Alexandre is not,is not,is not a legal child. Why can't she get that through her head? I'm sorry I know she would like to dignify the child's existence and birth and I guess of the relationship.

But she needs to read some royal history. PA is taking complete advantage of his being able to "sire" children, write them a big care check and dismiss them. So far, Nicole, Alexandre, as sweet and precious and bright as he is--HE AIN'T ROYAL-just a product of his father's pleasure. He's among many other children-he'll be ok. WHEN DOES PERSONAL DIGNITY KICK IN? My teenagers, used to say (if I can get away with this) Forget you then is what I'd say to myself.
  #124  
Old 06-03-2006, 10:26 PM
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Unfortunately, Nicole put herself and her child out there with that smiling, self-promoting photo spread in Paris Match very soon after the death of beloved Prince Rainier. Having said that, I personally don't feel any different about Tamara than Nicole. Imo, they were both digging for gold and reckless Albert obliged. I also don't think either one of his out-of-wedlock children should ever take the throne since royal history and tradition does not recognize these children because they challenge legitimate heirs and throw the whole line of succession into confusion. This threatens the continuity that royal families need to survive. Caroline and her children have been put in an awkward and untenible position as legitimate heirs who were born in Monaco with at least the media suggesting that their position should be displaced in favor of Albert's illegitimate children.
  #125  
Old 06-03-2006, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neat2912
Things are popping this week. We were just talking about,essentially feeling and understanding facts on the gut level. It seems, that Bunte reports NC's confirmation that she asked permission to have Alex babptized in the chapel in MC. Why wouldn't he deny it. Alexandre is not,is not,is not a legal child.
the catholic church does not discriminate against children born out of wedlock. take Louis of Luxembourg as an example with his son and his girlfriend, Tess. they are the prime example of how such a public out of wedlock birth should be handled. a sad thing too seeing as he is only 19 and Albert nearing 50.
  #126  
Old 06-03-2006, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toledo
Neat2912, you make one good point that no one wants to talk about.

Is the issue of Nicole's race and compare the bad press she received when her 'scandal' came out last year against the way the press is currently presenting the other lady in question and her caucasian offspring. It's what is so often called the 'big elephant in the room-everyone sees it and knows it's there but no one wants to talk about it.

What about this suggestion, if the moderators approve. A separate thread on the issue on race and royals so we can all dish it out in a polite way. In that way we don't consume out the Nicole and Albert thread that should be into their activities and news.

Moderators, do you agree to a thread On Race and Royals? I ask because I am not going to be the one starting it and getting it deleted (and me ostracized for suggesting it )
If you're thinking of a general thread, feel free to start it in Royal Chit Chat. As long as we don't start getting into accusations of racism, I don't see a problem. I'm not sure there's much that can really be said about it without getting into conjecture about how the royals feel, but we can see how it goes.
  #127  
Old 06-03-2006, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
...I also don't think either one of his out-of-wedlock children should ever take the throne since royal history and tradition does not recognize these children because they challenge legitimate heirs and throw the whole line of succession into confusion. This threatens the continuity that royal families need to survive. Caroline and her children have been put in an awkward and untenible position as legitimate heirs who were born in Monaco with at least the media suggesting that their position should be displaced in favor of Albert's illegitimate children.
Caroline put Chantal Hochuli (her friend and Ernst's first wife) in an awkward and untenable position when she had an affair with Ernst, broke up his marriage and got pregnant out of wedlock.

So tough for Caroline if she doesn't get what she wants--for once. Besides, Andrea takes the throne b/c of Monaco's male-preference primogeniture. She'll never reign anyway.

And we know that the late Prince Rainier III's mother was illegitimate and later legitimized when it suited the prinicpality's interest, so they can figure out a way to make it work--or perhaps they can all grow up and stop having children without first considerint the consequences.
  #128  
Old 06-03-2006, 11:25 PM
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Qsophy, I am talking about royal history and tradition, not your personal opinion of Princess Caroline who despite her past mistakes, many people find more suitable than her brother. Furthermore, she is the first-born. Albert's children, legitimate or illegitimate, should be irrelevant. In an equal and fair world, he would be fifth in line to the throne while she rules. But that's just my opinion.
  #129  
Old 06-03-2006, 11:34 PM
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Mind if I share your opinion too? You are absolutely right, Caroline is the first born, the elder. We are discussing articles talking about children out of wedlock putting a claim to a country's throne and we seem to forget Caroline is the one short changed on this deal. She is the first born. In a fair world she should be the ruler and let Albert travel and do all he wants with his gal pals.
  #130  
Old 06-03-2006, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
Qsophy, I am talking about royal history and tradition, not your personal opinion of Princess Caroline who despite her past mistakes, many people find more suitable than her brother. Furthermore, she is the first-born. Albert's children, legitimate or illegitimate, should be irrelevant. In an equal and fair world, he would be fifth in line to the throne while she rules. But that's just my opinion.
You were talking about royal history and tradition--so was I :

1. The royal history and tradition of Monaco includes the fact that the Principality was saved from French rule by an illegitimate daughter who later became Princess.

2. Monaco's constitution has male-preference primogeniture--also a historical fact. I disagree with it, but it is a fact.

You expressed an opinion about whether Caroline should rule--so did I:

1. She has also had a pregnancy that occurred prior to marriage.

2. She broke up a friend's marriage to get at her friend's husband.

3. It is hard to feel sorry for someone who appears to feel so little pity for others.

Therefore, she is no better suited to rule than Albert, in my opinion.

It's just a big mess.
  #131  
Old 06-03-2006, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qsophy
You were talking about royal history and tradition--so was I :

1. The royal history and tradition of Monaco includes the fact that it the principality was saved by an illegitimate daughter who later became Princess.

2. Monaco's constitution has male-preference primogeniture--also a historical fact.

You expressed an opinion about whether Caroline should rule--so did I:

1. She has also had pregnancies that occurred prior to marriage.

2. She broke up a friend's marriage to get at her friend's husband.

Therefore, she is no better suited to rule than Albert, in my opinion. None of them should rule, IMO. They'll all make a mess of it.
Princess Charlotte was legitimized because there were no other heirs and she never took the throne.

Just because male primogeniture is the law doesn't mean it isn't out of step with today's society as many royal families have done away with it.

Princess Caroline married both times she became pregnant to men who obviously adored and adore her.

I think the whole story that she and Chantal were great friends is exaggerated. She was friends with Prince Ernst before he ever married Chantal. She was a friend of the prince.

Having answered all of that, Albert is the ruler of Monaco and we wait to see how many more children he has strewn across the planet or if he'll be a better father to Alexandre Coste and now Jazmin Grace than he has been in the past.
  #132  
Old 06-03-2006, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
If you're thinking of a general thread, feel free to start it in Royal Chit Chat. As long as we don't start getting into accusations of racism, I don't see a problem. I'm not sure there's much that can really be said about it without getting into conjecture about how the royals feel, but we can see how it goes.
I'm about to fall asleep over the keyboard because I did not see your reply back there a minute ago. I'll get it started and let's see what happens and how civil we get...
  #133  
Old 06-04-2006, 01:43 AM
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An article I found on NC/PA...

I found an interesting story about the NC/PA saga on the internet. Here are some excerpts (the link is at the end). It brings up some interesting things I had never heard of. I highlighted the parts that I haven't seen posted on this forum (unless I missed them). My purpose here is to show that there is more to the PA/NC situation than any of us may realize--nothing more.

NC and Alex attended a private viewing of Rainier III?
"Rainier's death on April 6, 2005, precipitates everything. The death of the sovereign is accompanied, indeed, by a strong symbolic gesture. The little Alexandre can accompany his mother in the vault where his grandfather rests. They are discreetly introduced and led to the casket." [emphasis mine]

My question: Introduced to whom?

Staying in Albert's Aparment in the 16th Arrondissement?
"Nicole decided to go on unpaid leave from Air France after the end of her maternity leave. Albert now agrees to ensure her material needs and that of the child. Nicole even leaves her apartment of the 19th arrondissement to go to live in the Prince's Parisian pied-à-terre, at the great surprise of the personnel of the place, which depends from the embassy of Monaco."

They saw each other more than once a month for five years? (Only in Monaco did they meet once a month).

''Albert and Nicole meet on an Air France flight on July 13, 1997.They are attracted to each other. From then on, whenever the Prince is in Paris, he regularly joins her in HIS apartment in the 16th arrondissement, close to the Trocadéro. In France, they hardly hide, showing up together at friends' dinners. In Monaco, the couple takes more precautions when she joins him, once a month. A driver waits for her to drive her to an apartment of the Park Palace, opposite the casino, where the prince has a garçonnière. In the evening, after the official duties, the heir joins her. These semi-clandestine meetings will last nearly five years." [emphasis mine]

Note: They went out together with friends? They had friends?? That doesn't exactly sound like a sex-only relationship. His immediate circle likely knew about NC--even if the media didn't. But keep in mind that the media also didn't know about TR or Charlene (the first time--until she talked). I think there are scores of women that PA has had that no one knows about.

Scared of Rainier?

"An agreement between the father and the mother is eventually reached. It is out of question that Albert recognizes the child officially, at least not before his father's death. He does not avoid his responsibilities: he accepts, but under very specific conditions, guaranteeing secrecy." [emphasis mine]

"In any event, a few days later, a meeting takes place in the presence of Albert's lawyer, Me Thierry Lacoste, one of his childhood friends. The counsel explains to Nicole that Albert's succession can be put in danger. In Monaco, more than the judgement of public opinion, one fears the reaction of Rainier." [emphasis mine]

My note: At least she waited until after Rainier's death to go public. Otherwise, PA might have lost the throne.

Fake name in a Swiss Lab?
"After the birth, the contacts between the parents begin again little by little. The mother puts forward also that, in the African tradition, the birth of a baby is inevitably a gift from God. And that the father must be up to it. Out of prudence, Me Lacoste requires that Alexandre is subjected to an DNA test. The result carried out under a false name in a Swiss laboratory does not leave any doubt: it is indeed the child of Albert."

Note: Why didn't PA request the DNA test? Ah yes, he TRUSTED her. Which is why he said he was "set up." Maybe they had agreed that she was responsible for the birth control, which she handled for 5 years without incident.

Albert's Fury & Nicole's Response!
"In any event, the day following Paris Match's publication and for the first time since weeks, Albert himself calls. "Are you proud of what you did?" does he say, angrily. "I did that so that Alexandre does not have to be ashamed to be a bastard", is her answer. The conversation is short."

Link: http://journals.aol.com/jenjer6/Step...al/entries/501

I know some of you are going to be really angry about this. In my view, it's just another point of view. And that's what forums are for, right?
  #134  
Old 06-04-2006, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
Qsophy, I am talking about royal history and tradition, not your personal opinion of Princess Caroline who despite her past mistakes, many people find more suitable than her brother. Furthermore, she is the first-born. Albert's children, legitimate or illegitimate, should be irrelevant. In an equal and fair world, he would be fifth in line to the throne while she rules. But that's just my opinion.
Did you ever think about the possibility that Caroline doesn't want that role.
She ( and her sister Stephanie ) was braught up very differently than her brother. Albert was braught up to become Monacos souverain one day. It has always been planed for him to take over. Caroline has never been in consideration. For this this question doesn't even exist, so what's the prob? They're fine with it.
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  #135  
Old 06-04-2006, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michelle
Did you ever think about the possibility that Caroline doesn't want that role.
She ( and her sister Stephanie ) was braught up very differently than her brother. Albert was braught up to become Monacos souverain one day. It has always been planed for him to take over. Caroline has never been in consideration. For this this question doesn't even exist, so what's the prob? They're fine with it.
For Caroline to have never been considered, she sure is better suited imo. She also got married, provided four heirs and has raised her children to be well adjusted (if smoking) teenagers and young adults, which is hard work. Where is Albert's hard work except producing but not raising Alexandre and Jazmin?

If you like, we can continue this conversation in the "What is your opinion of Prince Albert" thread:
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...bert-9878.html
  #136  
Old 06-04-2006, 01:29 PM
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Qsophy, I read your post. A lot of what was stated I had already read before. However, If their relationship was more than just sex and their were real feelings involved, what made Nicole act the way she did? I do believe that she loved him, but I don't think that he loved her in return. It is a shame that the child is being treated the way he is because PA feels betrayed by Nicole. I have stated before that if Nicole had acted like an adult, not humiliated herself and her child in such a public way, maybe PA would not be treating her like this. Again, Nicole has no-one to blame but herself.

And, Neat 2912, I agree with you, Nicole wants so desparately for PA, Caroline and Stephanie to recognize her and Alexandre its almost pathetic. I don't think she will ever get it through her head that she and Alexandre is not and never will be apart of the Grimaldi clan.
  #137  
Old 06-04-2006, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sashajones
Qsophy, I read your post. A lot of what was stated I had already read before. However, If their relationship was more than just sex and their were real feelings involved, what made Nicole act the way she did? I do believe that she loved him, but I don't think that he loved her in return. It is a shame that the child is being treated the way he is because PA feels betrayed by Nicole. I have stated before that if Nicole had acted like an adult, not humiliated herself and her child in such a public way, maybe PA would not be treating her like this. Again, Nicole has no-one to blame but herself.

And, Neat 2912, I agree with you, Nicole wants so desparately for PA, Caroline and Stephanie to recognize her and Alexandre its almost pathetic. I don't think she will ever get it through her head that she and Alexandre is not and never will be apart of the Grimaldi clan.
Sashajones, I think there were real feelings involved on both sides--I don't know about love on either side. The fact that Nicole acted the way she did (after 7 years), I think was due to the fact that she did not believe that PA would publicly recognize Alex, as they had agreed. How many times have we seen happily married people turn ugly when circumstances take an unintended turn? I realize they were not married, the point is that happy relationships often go sour. This is no different than any other relationship. It's not as if she held most of the power in that relationship--he is a head of state, after all.

Nicole acted like an adult by meeting with PA privately, and requesting his acknowledgement of the child. PA is the one who has 2 children out of wedlock and refuses to acknowledge them until the media gets ahold of the stories. He acted like a child.

She also kept quiet for almost 2 years, only going public when she began to doubt his assertions--considering he didn't recognize Jazmin for 14 years, she wasn't entirely off base in thinking that he might not keep up his end of the deal. People seem to forget that she didn't take him to court immediately, as did Tamara. I'd like to see some posts on that fact.

But I have seen no evidence that NC thinks that she and Alex are part of the Grimaldi clan, nor do I see any evidence that she is desperate to be recognized by PA, Caroline and Stephanie. For all we know, she has already met them. Unless someone has a link to a story...
  #138  
Old 06-04-2006, 05:14 PM
Aristocracy
 
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Qsiohy -Where did you get that great name? Thank you,thank you. About the PA/NC love thing? Or "real feelings". Perhaps she was, unfortunately. But why, oh why, or how could a man, repeat man, Royal or Christlike or whatever be so callous and sorry, (I hope this gets through) really ungentlemanly. Even you're in a woman's enjoyable company for One there a certain touch of concern for her feminity or her womanhood?

I understand he possibly thought he needed to distance himself in the early days of the scandal, but he continued on his world-wide belittleing,imo and the child on the NY Times, NYC.He had/has the power without such demeaning her/him. I felt so,horrified as a woman, knowing how she had expressed such tenderness and respect for him. He didn't have to do it,he had the power to just ignore her without the degradation.

Which brings me to,Sashajones, and Qsophy. Why if NC only wants recognition, at least from him, why can't she just fade quietly. What does he have to do or so to show her what his postion is on attention to the child. There's the so-called silence thing, the circus denial, and now the chapel(which is understandable). Then why doesn't he, if he is giving mixed messages? Why (although lovely) did he spend that huge sum of money,if he did on the Bahama trip, Right at her December 6 birthday?

Another thought: Are they locked in a duel/battle of stubbornness? He to show her whose boss, but of course he is? Or has she lost her sense of what's best for Alex. If so, although she's apparently a loving attentive mother, but I ask, how twisted will he be growing in his formulative years seeing his mother treated like insignificant --------- and he being shunted or shuned. But who really cares about the sisters,they're in compliance.

I know PA needs his world-wide image thing but having an neurotic child sitting up there on Oblivion Hill. The world will know about that. Can of say all of this, I hope, Please

I forgot something, please. PA is not off the hook by providing all of the niceties. With all of the run-around stubborn nonsense,the world should hold him responsible for some hands on attention for the mental health of his flesh and blood. In my humble opinion, he should secure an Advisor
not an attorney type but for helping with handling every day Principality/Prince/World affairs for the mother of his child that the world knows about-whatever he thinks of Her.
  #139  
Old 06-05-2006, 01:29 AM
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Some posts have been deleted. Let's keep this thread on topic... Back to current events.

Thanks for your co-operation.

Mandy
Monaco Moderator
  #140  
Old 06-06-2006, 05:04 PM
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For all NC & Eric/Alexandre fans: two pics I came across. Both are from an old Bunte (2 weeks ago IIRC).
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