Princesses Catharina-Amalia, Alexia and Ariane, News 1 (September 2005 - June 2007)

[Marengo]

I think you misunderstood my post. They want to stop the possibility of dual citizenshiop, for members of parlament and goverment officials at least (note: this still has to be discussed).

Anyway, I highly doubt that Catharina-Amalia will ever claim the Argentinian citizenship. Alexia might do so if she marries an Argentinian for example, but I also do not expect she ever will.

 

[*SofiaM*]

Thanks for that information Marengo, holding dual citizenship myself, I'll be interested to see if this debate goes further.

As you said, I doubt Catharina-Amalia will take on Argentinian citizenship as she will be Queen of The Netherlands. Though perhaps Maxima would like her girls to be the same as her

 

[Henri M.]

Thanks for that information Marengo, holding dual citizenship myself, I'll be interested to see if this debate goes further.

As you said, I doubt Catharina-Amalia will take on Argentinian citizenship as she will be Queen of The Netherlands. Though perhaps Maxima would like her girls to be the same as her

It is not really about the dual citizenship but simply hidden xenophobism by a small extreme right party. This party protested against the fact that two new state stecretaries, mrs. Nebahat Albayrak (Justice) and mr. Ahmed Aboutaleb (Social Affairs) also do have the Turkish and Morroccoan citizenship.

But the real issue behind this is the fact that there are islamic people in the new Cabinet. This party shouted about 'A tsunami of Islam is engulfing the Netherlands!' and 'The islamists are taking over our country!'. Their leader, mr. Wilders, denied that his action against the two new state-secretaries was islamophobic. He stated: if a minister had the Swedish nationality and a blonde hairdo, I would have protested as well (no one believes this).

Because of all this, suddenly the double nationalities of Queen Beatrix, her sisters and Princess Máxima became topic of a debate in the media.

 

[Gisela]

I wasn't aware that the Queen and her sisters had dual citizenship. Do any other members of the royal family have it as well? Thanks.

 

[Henri M.]

I wasn't aware that the Queen and her sisters had dual citizenship. Do any other members of the royal family have it as well? Thanks.

Only The Queen, Princess Irene, Princess Margriet and Princess Christina: British on base of the Sophia Naturalization Act.

And Princess Máxima: Argentinean on base of the Argentinean civic law.

 

[fee]

Could they claim british citizenship or do they hold it already?
And why would Beatrix apply for the acknowlegdement of her british citizenship if she is the head of the dutch monarchy.
In case the dutch ever get tired of their royals and force them into exile, I could imagine a second passport comes in handy however, there will certainly be other countries offering asylum
BTW, WA and his brothers are certainly eligible for german citizenship too, as sons of a german father.
But as I wondered, being entitled to and actually holding it are two different things.

 

[Henri M.]

Could they claim british citizenship or do they hold it already?

No one knows. The Rijksvoorlichtingsdienst (State Information Agency) sees this as private. The Sophia Naturalization Act was repelled in 1948. All four daughters of Queen Juliana were born before 1948.

Do not forget that the Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies were occupied in World War II and that the Dutch royals were in exile in the United Kingdom (Queen Wilhelmina and Prince Bernhard) and in Canada (Princess Juliana, Princess Beatrix, Princess Irene and Princess Margriet).

It is most likely that British passports were obtained in the war years. The Queen and her sisters are daughters of a German. The Prince of Orange and his brothers are sons of a German. Indeed, all of them can apply for German citizenship.

 

[princess olga]

It is not really about the dual citizenship but simply hidden xenophobism by a small extreme right party. This party protested against the fact that two new state stecretaries, mrs. Nebahat Albayrak (Justice) and mr. Ahmed Aboutaleb (Social Affairs) also do have the Turkish and Morroccoan citizenship.

But the real issue behind this is the fact that there are islamic people in the new Cabinet. This party shouted about 'A tsunami of Islam is engulfing the Netherlands!' and 'The islamists are taking over our country!'. Their leader, mr. Wilders, denied that his action against the two new state-secretaries was islamophobic. He stated: if a minister had the Swedish nationality and a blonde hairdo, I would have protested as well (no one believes this).

Because of all this, suddenly the double nationalities of Queen Beatrix, her sisters and Princess Máxima became topic of a debate in the media.

well explained, Henri M., this is exactly what's going on.

 

[princess olga]

Only The Queen, Princess Irene, Princess Margriet and Princess Christina: British on base of the Sophia Naturalization Act.

Beatrix <british>, holy! If anything, the DRF has more german blood running thru its veins than the average German. But waitaminute...now that I think about it, so does the Windsor Clan! They're Germans originally (not to be snide about this, but it's true)

As for Amalia..I'm with the consensus..if she wants to become queen of the netherlands, being <the> nominal representative of that country, it would be a bit strange if she actively pursued getting the citizenship of another nation.

 

[Verde Esmeralda]

Anyway, I highly doubt that Catharina-Amalia will ever claim the Argentinian citizenship. Alexia might do so if she marries an Argentinian for example, but I also do not expect she ever will.

I do not expect it either... jaja why would she? I believe that mastering Spanish would be enough from both of them, if they wanted to honour her mother's roots in some way...

Btw, Henri M., great explanation on the dual citizenship matter!

 

[kaffir]

Thanks for that information Marengo, holding dual citizenship myself, I'll be interested to see if this debate goes further.

As you said, I doubt Catharina-Amalia will take on Argentinian citizenship as she will be Queen of The Netherlands. Though perhaps Maxima would like her girls to be the same as her

That's if the instutition of "Queen" exists in what, 45 or so years from now? The way things are going in Europe, with the decline of the "royal" institution, and the view that "national pride" is somehow sinful rising, I'm not sure there will be such an insitution in the Netherlands as well as in other countries.

 

[Marengo]

Beatrix <british>, holy! If anything, the DRF has more german blood running thru its veins than the average German. But waitaminute...now that I think about it, so does the Windsor Clan! They're Germans originally (not to be snide about this, but it's true)
.

Well, the Germans are traditionally the biggest group of immigrants in The Netherlands Olga, over half of the population can trace it's roots back to Germany. Most of them have integrated rather well though, so we won' t call the Brenninckmeijers or Dreesmann's Germans

-
To kaffir: though this might not be the thread to expand on the future of the Dutch monarchy, I am rather certain that they will stay on their place for the next decades. If anything the RF sees to have become more popular and more present in the press the last decade or so. Even the most left socialist party changed their anti-moarchy point of view. So there is no social or political base to change to a republic in the near future. If anything, an integrated Europe makes the need for national symbols like the monarchy larger, so I do not see a republican threat from that either. I do not see the Dutch ryal institution decline, o the contrary (due to Beatrix).

 

[kaffir]

Yeah probably not the thread, but interesting points Marengo.

 

[CATS]

Princess Olga; the saying about the Windsors being german is no longer true. True they do still have some, but its very watered down, presay when you get to the Queens grandchildren.

Princess catherina-Amalia is adorable.

 

[Henri M.]

All Dutch heirs have been 25% Dutch

Princess Catharina-Amalia, the hereditary Princess of Orange
50% Argentinean, 25% German and 25% Dutch
paternal grandfather: German (Claus von Amsberg jr.)
paternal grandmother: Dutch (Beatrix Queen of the Netherlands)
maternal grandfather: Argentinean (Jorge Zorreguieta Stefanini)
maternal grandmother: Argentinean (María del Carmen Cerruti Carricart)

The Prince of Orange
75% German and 25% Dutch
paternal grandfather: German (Claus von Amsberg sr.)
paternal grandmother: German (Gösta Baroness von dem Bussche-Haddenhausen)
maternal grandfather: German (Bernhard jr. Prince of Lippe-Biesterfeld)
maternal grandmother: Dutch (Juliana Queen of the Netherlands)

The Queen
75% German and 25% Dutch
paternal grandfather: German (Bernhard sr. Prince zur Lippe-Biesterfeld)
paternal grandmother: German (Armgard Baroness von Sierstorpff-Cramm)
maternal grandfather: German (Heinrich Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin)
maternal grandmother: Dutch (Wilhelmina Queen of the Netherlands)

Queen Juliana
75% German and 25% Dutch
paternal grandfather: German (Friedrich-Franz Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin)
paternal grandmother: German (Marie Princess von Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt)
maternal grandfather: Dutch (Willem III King of the Netherlands, Grand Duke of Luxembourg)
maternal grandmother: German (Emma Princess zu Waldeck und Pyrmont)

Queen Wilhelmina
50% German, 25% Russian and 25% Dutch
paternal grandfather: Dutch (Willem II King of the Netherlands, Grand Duke of Luxembourg)
paternal grandmother: Russian (Anna Paulovna Romanovna, Grand Duchess of Russia)
maternal grandfather: German (Georg-Victor Fürst zu Waldeck und Pyrmont)
maternal grandmother: German (Helena Princess of Nassau-Weilburg)

 

[kaffir]

Maxima's grandparents weren't orginally from Germany? Many Argentines were.

 

[Henri M.]

Rich families, from both sides

Maxima's grandparents weren't orginally from Germany? Many Argentines were.

No, the family is in Argentina for generations. The Zorreguietas are from Basque origin (= a region in Northern Spain). The first Zorreguieta in Argentina was José Antonio de Sorreguieta y Oyarzabal, Gamboa y Sagastume who moved to Salta, Argentina 1790 and was registered as "próspero comerciante" (rich merchant).

The Cerruti's (from her mother's side) are from Italian origin. The first Cerruti in Argentina was Santiago (Giacomo) Cerruti Craviotto. He was born in Varese (Liguria, Italy) in 1827, was a maritime entrepreneur and went to Argentina where he married Petrona Rita Ponce de Léon y Pastor and established himself in Pergamino, province of Buenos Aires. They were the great-grandparents of Máxima's mother. Their hacienda in Pergamino is still in the family.

The 'Argentinean' Zorreguieta's:

Máxima's father Jorge Horacio Zorreguieta is a landowner, a former minister and politician, is Presidente del Centro Azucarero Argentino (since 1984) and Presidente de la Fundación Vasco Argentina Juan de Garay (since 1995).

Máxima's grandfather Juan Antonio Zorreguieta was a banker.

Máxima's great-grandfather Amedeo Zorreguieta was a rich merchant, a government minister, a politician and mayor of the capital city of Mendoza.

Máxima's great-great-grandfather Mariano Zorreguieta was a rich merchant, a government minister, a politician, a historian, a member and president of the senate of the Province of Salta

Máxima's great-great-great-grandfather José Antonio de Sorreguieta y Oyarzabal, Gamboa y Sagastume was a rich merchant and the first Zorreguieta who established himself in Argentina. He registered his long Spanish name as 'Zorreguieta' in his new homeland.

The 'Argentinean' Cerruti's:

Máxima's grandfather dr. Jorge Cerruti was a landowner, a medical doctor and a surgeon

Máxima's great-grandfather dr. Santiago Cerruti was a landowner, a medical doctor and a surgeon

Máxima's great-great grandfather Santiago (Giacomo) Cerruti was a maritime entrepreneur and the first Cerruti who established himself in Argentina.

 

[LadyK]

Henri, you are a fount of information

 

[rosana]

Henri thanks for the information on Maxima´s origins

 

[Empress]

Princess Catharina-Amalia, the hereditary Princess of Orange
50% Argentinean, 25% German and 25% Dutch
paternal grandfather: German (Claus von Amsberg jr.)
paternal grandmother: Dutch (Beatrix Queen of the Netherlands)
maternal grandfather: Argentinean (Jorge Zorreguieta Stefanini)
maternal grandmother: Argentinean (María del Carmen Cerruti Carricart)

The Prince of Orange
75% German and 25% Dutch
paternal grandfather: German (Claus von Amsberg sr.)
paternal grandmother: German (Gösta Baroness von dem Bussche-Haddenhausen)
maternal grandfather: German (Bernhard jr. Prince of Lippe-Biesterfeld)
maternal grandmother: Dutch (Juliana Queen of the Netherlands)

The Queen
75% German and 25% Dutch
paternal grandfather: German (Bernhard sr. Prince zur Lippe-Biesterfeld)
paternal grandmother: German (Armgard Baroness von Sierstorpff-Cramm)
maternal grandfather: German (Heinrich Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin)
maternal grandmother: Dutch (Wilhelmina Queen of the Netherlands)

Queen Juliana
75% German and 25% Dutch
paternal grandfather: German (Friedrich-Franz Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin)
paternal grandmother: German (Marie Princess von Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt)
maternal grandfather: Dutch (Willem III King of the Netherlands, Grand Duke of Luxembourg)
maternal grandmother: German (Emma Princess zu Waldeck und Pyrmont)

Queen Wilhelmina
50% German, 25% Russian and 25% Dutch
paternal grandfather: Dutch (Willem II King of the Netherlands, Grand Duke of Luxembourg)
paternal grandmother: Russian (Anna Paulovna Romanovna, Grand Duchess of Russia)
maternal grandfather: German (Georg-Victor Fürst zu Waldeck und Pyrmont)
maternal grandmother: German (Helena Princess of Nassau-Weilburg)

Henri - I notice in your calculations that you are using the grandparents, and not the parents. Of course that plays a factor, but you must first factor in the parents, then the grandparents. Thus - I believe that your calculations might need a bit of reworking. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe that I am. If Queen Wilhelmina - as your furthest relative, is 50% German, 25% Russian, and 25% Dutch, and her husband German, by rights that made Queen Juliana indeed 75% German, 12.5% Russian, and 12.5% Dutch. Then it would stand to reason that Beatrix would be nearly 90% German, and 10% other. However, given that this is all regarding the blood line and not the actual citizenship, then I think that it is a moot point. However, in any case Catharina Amalia would be 50% Argentinian, and basically 50% german.

But since we all know that she is 100% Dutch for everyone who cares, I think that the Argentinian/German influence is somewhat minimal. She also looks 100% Dutch, but there you go.

I think that the first calculation on bloodlines first goes to the parents and only then to the grandparents, ad infinitum.

 

[kaffir]

Thanks Henri M! I knew she was somehow Euro!

 

[Marengo]

Henri - I notice in your calculations that you are using the grandparents, and not the parents. Of course that plays a factor, but you must first factor in the parents, then the grandparents. Thus - I believe that your calculations might need a bit of reworking. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe that I am. If Queen Wilhelmina - as your furthest relative, is 50% German, 25% Russian, and 25% Dutch, and her husband German, by rights that made Queen Juliana indeed 75% German, 12.5% Russian, and 12.5% Dutch. Then it would stand to reason that Beatrix would be nearly 90% German, and 10% other. However, given that this is all regarding the blood line and not the actual citizenship, then I think that it is a moot point. However, in any case Catharina Amalia would be 50% Argentinian, and basically 50% german.

But since we all know that she is 100% Dutch for everyone who cares, I think that the Argentinian/German influence is somewhat minimal. She also looks 100% Dutch, but there you go.

I think that the first calculation on bloodlines first goes to the parents and only then to the grandparents, ad infinitum.

Well, if we trace these things further we can claim that the Russian wasn't that Russian, as Queen Anna's mother was German and her father was for 75% a German (Holstein-Gottrop and Anhalt-Zerbst ancestors), the Britishness of the Dutch RF can also be traced back to Hannover etc, so if we consider 'blood-line' to be essensial to be called German/Dutch etc. then Willem-Alexander is 98% German indeed. But these days the blood-line has become unpopular in this reasoning, even germany changed immigration laws under Schroder to change this (as one of the last countries in the world).

 

[Empress]

I agree with you as well Marengo. If I tallied my bloodline I would have no idea what I would end up. I was only re working the calculations based on the blood line. However, I think that the citizenship is more important and as they are all clearly dutch, by choice or birth, then what runs through their veins is a moot point I think. In any case, I am not so sure that blood knows the difference between German, Dutch, Russian,French or what have you. I think that is a singularly human failing.

 

[Kelly]

In any case, I am not so sure that blood knows the difference between German, Dutch, Russian,French or what have you. I think that is a singularly human failing.

I must agree with that! Anyhow, what advantages would Catharina-Amalia have with the argentinian citizenship?

 

[Henri M.]

I must agree with that! Anyhow, what advantages would Catharina-Amalia have with the argentinian citizenship?

For Princess Máxima and her children: protection by the Argentinean government and a safe haven in the Embassy of Argentina, in case of a revolution in the Netherlands. The Princess holds Argentinean citizenship.

For the Prince of Orange: protection by the German government and a safe haven in the Embassy of Germany, in case of a revolution in the Netherlands. As son of a German the Prince can claim German citizenship.

For the Queen: protection by the German and British government and a safe haven in the Embassy of Germany or the United Kingdom, in case of a revolution in the Netherlands. As son of a German the Queen can claim German citizenship. As a descendant under the Sophia Naturalization Act who was born before 1948 the Queen can claim (or already helds) British citizenship.

I can not think about other advantages of double or triple nationalities.

 

[lilytornado]

I don't think Germany allows double nationalities, so they all would have to give up the other citizenships.

 

[Henri M.]

I don't think Germany allows double nationalities, so they all would have to give up the other citizenships.

No, but they can fled into the German Embassy in The Hague (a former city palace for Cornelis van Schuylenburch, Mayor of The Hague, and one of the most stylish Embassies in the world) and request for the German citizenship.

 

[Aurora810]

Thanks to everyone that has contributed on this thread there is a lot of great of info.

 

[*SofiaM*]

Wow, I have learned a lot from the last few pages. You guys amaze me with what you know! So thank you

 

[ZandraRae]

Yes, thans to everyone who contributed! I can see where a dual citizenship can come in handy. As for Catharina Amalia, I wonder is she'll choose one day to hold Argentinian citizenship?