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  #421  
Old 10-13-2012, 05:38 PM
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I'd say definitely less.
Doubt if Zara's royal connections influenced her relationship with Mike in any way.
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  #422  
Old 10-13-2012, 06:20 PM
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I think Victoria and Daniel would have married regardless.

I think both Pavlos and Marie Chantal were likely brought up with an implicit understanding of what sort of spouses they should be looking for, and they both did what was expected of them, (as did both of MC's sisters). That said, they seem to truly love each other; sometimes it's not the worst idea to think as well as feel when you're choosing a partner.

IMO, it's harder to get a feel for the relationships of the older generations, like JC and Sofia or Elizabeth and Phillip. The criteria for a successful marriage back then for people in their position were so different compared to today. Phillip probably had a bit more freedom, but the pool of people Juan Carlos, Sofia and Elizabeth could have married was very small. For example, Elizabeth couldn't marry a commoner, a Catholic or a German. That left a relatively small number of men around her own age from the British aristocracy and a few foreign royal families.
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  #423  
Old 10-13-2012, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by camelot23ca View Post
For example, Elizabeth couldn't marry a commoner, a Catholic or a German. That left a relatively small number of men around her own age from the British aristocracy and a few foreign royal families.
That is to say, I understand why she couldn't marry a German (World War II) or a Catholic (Act of Settlement), but why not a commoner?
Elizabeth could have married a titled aristocrat, an officer or just a middle-class man with some noble/aristocratic background without any issued.
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  #424  
Old 10-13-2012, 06:51 PM
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Artemisia - While I agree Elizabeth could have married a commoner don't you think the prevailing custom practically precluded that alternative? The grey suits and all that were a bit stiff then. As it was, she had to stomp her foot a bit to get Phillip approved.

It's like Charles being so strongly expected to marry a virgin. It seems silly now - but then there was little funny about it at the time.
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  #425  
Old 10-13-2012, 06:52 PM
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Indeed, Elizabeth's father had a whole slew of young officers from aristocratic families lined up as potential husbands, she just wasn't interested in them as anything other than dance partners and friends. Queen Mary referred to them as The Body Guard.
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  #426  
Old 10-13-2012, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
That is to say, I understand why she couldn't marry a German (World War II) or a Catholic (Act of Settlement), but why not a commoner?
Elizabeth could have married a titled aristocrat, an officer or just a middle-class man with some noble/aristocratic background without any issued.
You're absolutely correct. I remember reading in Robert Lacey's biography of Her Majesty, that it was very much hoped that Elizabeth would marry one of the officers that were invited to various parties, and therefore, she was encouraged to socialize with them. However, the Princess knew her mind, and wanted to marry none other than Philip of Greece and Denmark.
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  #427  
Old 10-13-2012, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Elizabeth could have married a titled aristocrat, an officer or just a middle-class man with some noble/aristocratic background without any issued.
I'll amend my statement to say she would have needed to marry a very uncommon commoner. :) We can quibble over exactly where the line would have been drawn, but IMO the reality is that Elizabeth's family, the royal court and the majority of the British people expected her to marry someone with a certain sort of pedigree... the kind of pedigree that a relatively small number of men have.
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  #428  
Old 10-13-2012, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
Artemisia - While I agree Elizabeth could have married a commoner don't you think the prevailing custom practically precluded that alternative? The grey suits and all that were a bit stiff then. As it was, she had to stomp her foot a bit to get Phillip approved.
I'll agree that the Queen could hardly marry a penniless Joe. Then again, she never socialised with such people: her entire circle of acquaintances consisted of men who'd be deemed more than eligible. And don't forget that her own mother was a commoner!

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Originally Posted by Daria_S View Post
You're absolutely correct. I remember reading in Robert Lacey's biography of Her Majesty, that it was very much hoped that Elizabeth would marry one of the officers that were invited to various parties, and therefore, she was encouraged to socialize with them. However, the Princess knew her mind, and wanted to marry none other than Philip of Greece and Denmark.
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Indeed, Elizabeth's father had a whole slew of young officers from aristocratic families lined up as potential husbands, she just wasn't interested in them as anything other than dance partners and friends. Queen Mary referred to them as The Body Guard.
I've read about it too, Daria and NGalitzine. In post-war Britain, it would have been quite morally uplifting if the young Princess married a dashing British officer who had distinguished himself in teh field of battle. That she actually did but the only problem with Prince Philip was that, despite fighting for Britain during World War II, he was a "Greek" or a "German" - but certainly not British.

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Originally Posted by camelot23ca View Post
I'll amend my statement to say she would have needed to marry a very uncommon commoner. :) We can quibble over exactly where the line would have been drawn, but IMO the reality is that Elizabeth's family, the royal court and the majority of the British people expected her to marry someone with a certain sort of pedigree... the kind of pedigree that a relatively small number of men have.
Of course, there was always a very high expectation of the future Queen's husband.
There were the traditionalists who expected nothing short of a royal -royal wedding (and who were quite happy with Elizabeth's choice), then there were those who'd prefer and English/British husband for the Queen (they still grumble), and those who simply accepted a man from a proper (aristocratic or noble) background.

I wouldn't say there was a small number though: any officer with relatively untarnished reputation, any son of a noble or aristocrat, anyone with some pedigree would probably have been considered a suitable match.
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  #429  
Old 10-13-2012, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Of course, there was always a very high expectation of the future Queen's husband.
There were the traditionalists who expected nothing short of a royal -royal wedding (and who were quite happy with Elizabeth's choice), then there were those who'd prefer and English/British husband for the Queen (they still grumble), and those who simply accepted a man from a proper (aristocratic or noble) background.

I wouldn't say there was a small number though: any officer with relatively untarnished reputation, any son of a noble or aristocrat, anyone with some pedigree would probably have been considered a suitable match.
I don't agree that she could have married any officer with untarnished reputation. The officer would have had to have been from, as you say above, a proper background. I'm not familiar enough with the composition of the British officer class in WWII to know whether 'officer' would have been synonymous with 'proper background' back then - maybe it would have been, at least for the officers allowed to come into contact with the young princesses.
In terms of whether the eligible group was small or not, well, there would have been a couple of suitable foreign royals, including Phillip. There would have been a certain number of aristocrats or relatives of aristocrats or members of old, respectable land owning families. Cross off the list those too old or too young. Cross off those who weren't single. Also those who had any scandal in their past. And those who would want no part of royal life. And then probably Elizabeth would simply have disliked some of the ones remaining, and vice versa. To me that's not a huge pool of men, at least not in relation to the group of people the current generation of royals can meet and marry...... OTOH, I guess it only takes one!
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  #430  
Old 10-13-2012, 11:47 PM
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Not disputing what you wrote, just one observation.
Most officers in the British Army during World War II and earlier (at least those of the rank of Lieutenant and above) came from noble or aristocratic background; a lot were Etonians, Harrovians or Wykemists. That's certainly true for those who were officers by the start of the war: in fact, merely to become an officer you needed a "proper" background in most cases.

Of course, the rank could have also been acquired through distinguished service in Armed Forces, especially in wartime. But even so, most of the higher-ranking officers came from nobility, aristocracy and gentry.
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  #431  
Old 10-13-2012, 11:59 PM
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Elizabeths social circle was incredibly small, and she had led a very sheltered life at Buckingham Palace, Windsor and Balmoral. Short of falling in love with a footman or a guardsman the chance of her coming into close enough contact with a man of a non-suitable station in life to even contemplate marriage was pretty much nil.
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  #432  
Old 10-14-2012, 02:53 AM
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I don't think the Queen would have been allowed to marry anyone w/o a title.

Queen Mary, George VI and her mother were still alive and all would have seen to it that she married a Prince.

IMO, Phillip was only accepted by the royal family as they were familar with him & he was a relative.

Phillip had been part of the Queen's life since she was 13.
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  #433  
Old 10-14-2012, 03:03 AM
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Daniel would never have married Victoria if she had been anyone else
Elizabeth and Phillip never
I could go on but I think you have to marry someone for one reason or another and if it's what they have and you want it well why not is that harsh I don't believe so ...
Margaret and Antony not if she had been plain ol' Meg Smith and so on but she had something he wanted so there it is ... but that is just the way I see it and if the other person feels okay aboutthat then well who am I to say it's not ok!!!! IMO of course
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  #434  
Old 10-14-2012, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by bertie5252003
Daniel would never have married Victoria if she had been anyone else
I think that's very cynical and also that there are no available facts that support this conclusion. In fact, I believe their relationship would have been much easier on Daniel had Victoria not been who she is.
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  #435  
Old 10-14-2012, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by bertie5252003
Daniel would never have married Victoria if she had been anyone else
Elizabeth and Phillip never
I could go on but I think you have to marry someone for one reason or another and if it's what they have and you want it well why not is that harsh I don't believe so ...
Margaret and Antony not if she had been plain ol' Meg Smith and so on but she had something he wanted so there it is ... but that is just the way I see it and if the other person feels okay aboutthat then well who am I to say it's not ok!!!! IMO of course
This is definitely one cynical view. Sure, a person's prospects should be considered, but not the sole reason that a marriage occurs. We all have our 'musts' that we want our ideal partner to possess, but if he/she has everything you want except wealth and status, you'd be a fool to let love slip through your fingers.

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I think that's very cynical and also that there are no available facts that support this conclusion. In fact, I believe their relationship would have been much easier on Daniel had Victoria not been who she is.
Absolutely true. I think it would have been easier on all royal/non-aristocrat courtships if the royal wasn't a royal. No worries about press, or the entire world watching your life before and after the wedding.
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  #436  
Old 10-14-2012, 11:32 AM
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Elizabeth and Phillip never
Please explain your reason.
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  #437  
Old 10-14-2012, 11:57 AM
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Not disputing what you wrote, just one observation.
Most officers in the British Army during World War II and earlier (at least those of the rank of Lieutenant and above) came from noble or aristocratic background; a lot were Etonians, Harrovians or Wykemists. That's certainly true for those who were officers by the start of the war: in fact, merely to become an officer you needed a "proper" background in most cases.

Of course, the rank could have also been acquired through distinguished service in Armed Forces, especially in wartime. But even so, most of the higher-ranking officers came from nobility, aristocracy and gentry.
Only in the beginning.
It's true that an officer's caste existed during the Victorian and Edwardian eras, especially in the "finer" regiments. On top of that many public schools also trained their pupils to be cadets, giving them a basic officers training.
But there was also a cadre of professional career officers, who fought their way up through the ranks, rarely reaching higher than major. Not least in the colonial regiments.
The casualty rate among junior officers in WWI was so high that the nobillity simply couldn't keep up. That meant that officers were drafted pretty early on from the middle class, preferably academics. That was in particular the case with "kitchener's army" by early 1916.
They were killed off just as fast, so by 1917 officers who had been promoted from the ranks were common.

By WWII many of those junior officers who had survived WWI and stayed on in the army had reached the rank of colonel or brigadier.
When Britain mobilized in 1939, the officers were again primarily drafted from those who had an academic background.
Most younger sons and middle aged men of the nobility had attended a university of some sort, hence the reason why they again constituted such a proportionally high number of officers.
But WWII was a different kind of war, demanding a different and higher level of professional skills from the officers. So soon officers were promoted based on merit, not background. On top of that promotion was swifter than in WWI, were a lieutenant might be lucky to survive long enough to become a major. And that was often it, - for the very brutal reason that the casualty rate among staff officers was low.
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  #438  
Old 10-14-2012, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by bertie5252003 View Post
Daniel would never have married Victoria if she had been anyone else
Elizabeth and Phillip never
I could go on but I think you have to marry someone for one reason or another and if it's what they have and you want it well why not is that harsh I don't believe so ...
Margaret and Antony not if she had been plain ol' Meg Smith and so on but she had something he wanted so there it is ... but that is just the way I see it and if the other person feels okay aboutthat then well who am I to say it's not ok!!!! IMO of course
I disagree with the Victoria and Daniel assessment but I understand that this is your opinion.

I think Daniel married Victoria despite who she was. I think he would have been happy if she was plain old Victoria from Sweden instead of being the Crown Princess of Sweden.
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  #439  
Old 10-22-2012, 08:59 AM
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Daniel and Victoria (if she wasn't the crown princess) = Yes more than certainly.

Henrik and Margrethe (if she wasn't the crown princess) = little effective

Philip and Elizabeth (if she wasn't the heiress apparent) = to be very effective in the crown princess

Constantine and Anne-Marie (if she wasn't a Danish princess) = somewhat effective, the title is important, but there is also love

Juan Carlos and Sofia (if she wasn't a Greek princess) = fully for both the title and the logic marriage

Pavlos and Marie Chantal (if she wasn't as wealthy as she is) = Rich in terms of acceptance is important.

Ranier and Grace (is she hadn't been an actress) = totally love match

Antony and Margaret (if she wasn't the Queen's sister) = No
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  #440  
Old 10-23-2012, 12:58 AM
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Elizabeths social circle was incredibly small, and she had led a very sheltered life at Buckingham Palace, Windsor and Balmoral. Short of falling in love with a footman or a guardsman the chance of her coming into close enough contact with a man of a non-suitable station in life to even contemplate marriage was pretty much nil.
Very good assessment of the reality of the situations! BECAUSE of her position, Her Majesty was limited in the number of and the kind of gentlemen she dealt with in a social manner. However, i do believe, just my opinion from books and such, that Prince Phillip was NOT the initial ideal choice according to her parents and grandmother. I read somewhere (forgive my senility, I cannot remember where!) that the Queen Mum used to call him "the Hun" (forgive me, I am not intentionally trying to insult anyone or any culture, merely paraphrasing)and because of the time and his background, resisted match. This was WWII era, very different from now, wounds still healing, people were still recovering emotionally! Which brings me to my perhaps favorite match: Queen Beatrix and Prince Claus!! :) Same sort of circumstances - after the war, though later, but they forged on in spite of his nationality. Bomb threats and such on their wedding day! But Prince Claus, rest his soul, turned out to be the most beloved member of that royal family, and for good reason. My point, excuse my wordiness, is that I believe Her Majesty has always loved just Prince Phillip, and he had to go through somewhat of row to marry her. Watch them today, and there IS love on both sides.
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