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  #61  
Old 08-21-2005, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auntie
Yes Queen Mary didn't have in mind to behead Lady Jane, only her (Jane's)Father in law, Lord Dudley, but when they planned to uprise again, even though Mary was Queen, she realized that she had no chice. It doesn't make her compassionate to me, look at all the "heretics" she burnt at the stake, I suppose she also had a hard life, being proclaimed bastard, losing title, mother and so many other things. No wonder she was so bitter
It has also been suggested that Queen Mary put Jane to her death because it was necessary in order to contract marriage with Philip II of Spain. The Spanish government wanted Catholicism back in England and having Jane Grey executed was a way to erase what Henry VIII and Edward VI had done.
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  #62  
Old 08-22-2005, 04:05 AM
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Princess of Diana-pressures of being perfect led her to bulimia and he husband was unfaithful

Princess Soraya-divorced for her inability to bear children

Prince Ali-his eyes are sad for the loss of his mother

Princess Margaret-her own sister denied her the right to marry her love Townsend
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  #63  
Old 08-22-2005, 01:30 PM
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Juana la Loca of Spain, whose love for her husband led her on a downward spiral.
Her sister, Catherine of Aragon, a truly great queen, whose inability to give her husband a son was a dynastic and personal tragedy.
Catherine's daughter, Mary Tudor, who was neglected by her father, abused by a harridan of a stepmother, stripped of her mother's love, and loved an indifferent man.
The Empress Carlotta of Mexico.
Queen Fabiola of Belgium, who always has such a sad smile. Her husband must have loved her very much. Despite their inability to have children, they always seemed to be devoted to each other.
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  #64  
Old 08-23-2005, 12:53 AM
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My list of Sad Royals:


Diana, Princess of Wales: A woman who searched for love all her life.

Catharine of Aragon: A woman thrown away by Henry VIII because he wanted a son

Sophia Dorothea of Celle: Wife of George I of England who was locked up for over 30 years for having an affair. She never saw her children again.

Empress Sisi: A woman who was constantly depressed and didn't know how to love her husband or children.

George III: A victim of a vicious malady.

Victoria Eugenie of Spain: A woman who should have known when someone throws a bomb at your carriage on your wedding day, you are not destined for a happy life.

Queen Victoria: A woman who lost the man she loved and nearly lost her reason.

Mary I of England: Bastardized by her father, not permitted to see her mother, usurped by her sister for a time. As monarch her husband does not love her and she dies alone.

Tsarevitch Alexei of Russia: An heir with a tragic malady that helped dethrone the Romanovs and took them to their deaths in Ekaterinberg.

Alexandra Fedorovna: A woman who lost her mother at a young age. A woman hated by her adopted country. Took 10 years to produce a male heir who ended up with haemophelia. She was detested by her in-laws, especially her mother-in-law.

Catherine de Medici: A woman who loved her husband and never stopped trying to gain his love. However, she was ignored for an older woman Diane de Poitiers, Duchesse de Valentinois.

Madame Royale de France: Eldest daughter of Louis XVI who lost her parents and siblings. Lived in exile going from country to country without any stability in her life. Victim of the French Revolution and The Napoleonic Family.
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  #65  
Old 08-23-2005, 02:15 AM
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Maria Feodorovna did not detest her daughter in law at all. She, and the rest of the Romanovs tried to get along with Alexandra again and again but the woman was jut plain crazy. Even her own sister (Grand Duchess Elisabeth Feodorovna) came to that conclusion.
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  #66  
Old 08-23-2005, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
Maria Feodorovna did not detest her daughter in law at all. She, and the rest of the Romanovs tried to get along with Alexandra again and again but the woman was jut plain crazy. Even her own sister (Grand Duchess Elisabeth Feodorovna) came to that conclusion.
Marie never wanted her son to marry Alix and only grudgingly accepted it when her husband was dying. She told her sister, the Princess of Wales, that she highly disapproved of Alix.

Why was Marie always usurping Alix's place from the beginning? The Dowager Empress surrenders preminence to the current Empress. Marie wouldn't do it! Why was she always meddling and wanted to keep Nicky and Alix under the same roof as her?? To spy is the answer!!

Marie hated the fact that she had to surrender the royal jewels to Alix. Alix didn't want or ask for them. The government issued an order and she had to surrender them. She blamed Alix.

Marie did not like the way Alix raised her children, The English way. Marie thought children should be out of sight, out of mind. I commend Alix for having a more modern attitude towards motherhood.

If anything made Alix crazy, it was having a haemophiliac son.

Her sister Elisabeth had a strange epiphany of her own and became a nun. Now that was unusual--to give up all that material comfort to be a nun?
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  #67  
Old 08-23-2005, 04:52 AM
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I agree in some of the points you make about the empress Marie, but to say she detested her daughter-in-law is simply not true. She had difficulties in giving up her role indeed, esp. because she was regarded as the perfect empress (compared to her daughter-in-law anyway). In hindsight I think that Marie had good judgement in not favouring Alix, Alexandra was clearly not suitable for this role and preferred to live in her imaginairy world at the Alexanderpalace, where nobody could visit her, she was to shy and was to fond in mingling in state affairs. As an empress she was unsuccesfull even before her son was born.

Furthermore I would like to remember you that in Russia, Emperor Alexander I changed courtetiquette so that the dowager empress would remain more important then the wife of a reigning emperor. So Marie was not upsurping anything but just did what was her right to do (although I agree it might have been better if she had been a bit more modest). Also, Alexandra's reaction to all this could have been different, like that of Queen Mary of GB,who had simular difficulties with her own mother-in-law.

Empress Alexandra was a devoted mother indeed, but as an empress of all the Russias more was expected of her, which she new when she married Nicky. In the end she was far to protective of her children, who were not allowed to see ANY familymember at all, even not their own grandmother and who were not prepared for life outside their own circle (Queen Marie of Roumania commented on this as well).
I have read the letters between Nicky and Alix and reading that one can only form the conclusion that Nicholas II was a weak man, with a strong but mad wife. Remember what she wrote? 'Be like Ivan the Terrible'. In the end Alexandra was one of the major factors which caused the tragedies later on. I think most Romanovs saw/see her as the one to blame (although the tend to overlook that their own corrupt lifestyles was another, maybe even more important factor).

Grand Duchess Elisabeth becoming a nun might be remarkable indeed, but the suggestion that she must be crazy because of that is highly offensive for people like her, who give up material things in order to help others.

Having this said, I must add that I do not dislike Empress Alexandra Feodorovna, she was truly a tragic woman, and at the wrong place at the wrong time. I think that if she would have been in a different environment, less hostile (the russian eltite was never very kind to their empress) she might have flourished. She contributed to her own isolation by estranger everybody from her and by making so many enemies. She clearly disliked her public role but I agree, in private she a nice lady. Even the formidable Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna (aka Miechen) -never a fan of either Emp. Alexandra F or Emp. Marie F- commented that in private & when having a good conversation the empress seemed a totally different person. I believe the egocentric Queen Marie of Roumania (also not her greatest fan, esp. as Alexandra's hysteria was the cause of so much hardship to Marie's sister Victoria-Melita).
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  #68  
Old 08-23-2005, 11:49 AM
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No one has mentioned German Emperor Friedrich III and Crown Prince Rudolf of Austria and Hungary yet, I think.

The first ascended the throne while terminally ill with throat cancer and reigned for 99 days, dying slowly.

The second... Why, everyone has heard about the mystery of Mayerling!
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  #69  
Old 08-23-2005, 02:27 PM
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I read somewhere that King Christian X of Denmark claimed that his aunts Marie Feodorovna of Russia and Alexandra of England were two of Denmark's worst exports, England only survived Alexandra's influence because it had a strong constitutional monarchy. Russia was not so lucky.

I don't know how true this is or even if it is, Christian's relationship with his aunt Marie had degraded so much since she lived out the last years of her exile in Denmark, it probably can't be trusted.

But the sisters shared some peculiarities - they didn't let their sons grow up. They continued to talk to their grown sons as children even after the sons were on the throne. With George V, there wasn't much danger, the King of England had no real power but in Russia things where the czar was not only absolute but also there was no established bureacracy of government. Like Queen Alexandra did with Princess Mary, Marie fought Alexandra Feodorovna for control over Nicholas and lost. This was much more problematic because Nicholas was the sole ruler of Russia. They both ended up giving up the fight they couldn't win (Alexandra gave up the public fight and Marie gave up the private fight) because Marie had set up an all or nothing fight for Nicholas and didn't see how to work with Alexandra. I don't think it was smart for Marie to see a all or nothing battle with Alexandra.

Neither Marie nor Alexandra Feodorovna had the perspective or background to meddle into politics in backwards, autocratic Russia but both did. In fact, I think the saying 'Be like Ivan the Terrible' originally came from Marie.

Marie had meddled in politics during her husband's reign. She singlehandedly got him to remove every single Jew in the Russian military and government. Many saw her at the time as a pretty social butterfly who simply liked the social scene but later wondered in hindsight how great her influence had been. Her anti-Semitism came out when her third son married a Jewess to her horror.

Alexandra Feodorovna did not forbid her children from seeing Marie. When the girls were teenagers they started every Saturday with a brunch with their granny. Alexandra was more protective of Alexei but its a bit extreme to say she forbid Marie to see him.
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  #70  
Old 08-23-2005, 02:33 PM
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I forgot some good ones.

The Princes in the Tower, the sons of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville, who should have been the King(s) of England, murdered by ??? (I'm not convinced about Richard III, he might have gotten a bum rap here);

Charles I, separated from his family, his crown, and later, his head; and

Mary, Queen of Scots, so much promise gone so wrong; a woman with lamentable taste in men.
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  #71  
Old 08-23-2005, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
...

Neither Marie nor Alexandra Feodorovna had the perspective or background to meddle into politics in backwards, autocratic Russia but both did. In fact, I think the saying 'Be like Ivan the Terrible' originally came from Marie.
If I remember correctly, it was Alix, although I am not so sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
Marie had meddled in politics during her husband's reign. She singlehandedly got him to remove every single Jew in the Russian military and government. Many saw her at the time as a pretty social butterfly who simply liked the social scene but later wondered in hindsight how great her influence had been. Her anti-Semitism came out when her third son married a Jewess to her horror.

...
The Romanov tsars were pretty anti-Semitic on their own accord, and I don't think that Alexander III or Nicholas II needed to be encouraged to oppress the Jews of Russia by someone. BTW, Alexander III did not remove the Jews from the Army, and there were almost none of them in the civil service.
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  #72  
Old 08-23-2005, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapple
BTW, Alexander III did not remove the Jews from the Army, and there were almost none of them in the civil service.
Hi Mapple,

I beg to differ on this last one. I have the source at home. When I get there I'll post it.
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  #73  
Old 08-23-2005, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
Hi Mapple,

I beg to differ on this last one. I have the source at home. When I get there I'll post it.
Hi, maybe we're talking about different things when discussing the removal... :)

It was one of the methods of oppression, to conscript the Jews into the Russian Army. They served as privates, of course...
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  #74  
Old 08-25-2005, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
Neither Marie nor Alexandra Feodorovna had the perspective or background to meddle into politics in backwards, autocratic Russia but both did. In fact, I think the saying 'Be like Ivan the Terrible' originally came from Marie.

Marie had meddled in politics during her husband's reign. She singlehandedly got him to remove every single Jew in the Russian military and government. Many saw her at the time as a pretty social butterfly who simply liked the social scene but later wondered in hindsight how great her influence had been. Her anti-Semitism came out when her third son married a Jewess to her horror.

Alexandra Feodorovna did not forbid her children from seeing Marie. When the girls were teenagers they started every Saturday with a brunch with their granny. Alexandra was more protective of Alexei but its a bit extreme to say she forbid Marie to see him.
I beg to differ on these issues.
I have a book which contains the correspondence between Alix and Nicky, and the letter which contains this quote is there. Furthermore the remark is quoted by several respectable authors in several books about the Romanovs.

I think that the horror of Empress Marie Feodorovna was so big because her son married a commoner. Add to that that she probably knew about her grandsons state of health, so she suspected that one day the crown might go to her son Michael and his descendants, which was not possible anymore because of this marriage & she might have suspected that the purple would eventually go to the offspring of hers (and everybodys) favourite enemy, Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna the Elder.
Dagmar also refused to meet the second husband of her daughter Olga as well, even when she was already living in excile in Denmark. I never heard of her anti-semitism, in Coryne Halls extended biography on Dagmar there is not even one remark about it. Where did you get this information, as I find it most intruiging?

In several biographies I read, there is clearly stated that Empress Alexandra F. did not allow her daughters to see any familymember. This was in the last/later years of her husbands reign, but still before the murder of Rasputin. It is true that a before the girls were allowed to see their grandmother.
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  #75  
Old 08-25-2005, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Mapple
No one has mentioned German Emperor Friedrich III and Crown Prince Rudolf of Austria and Hungary yet, I think.

The first ascended the throne while terminally ill with throat cancer and reigned for 99 days, dying slowly.

The second... Why, everyone has heard about the mystery of Mayerling!
Empress Zita gave a rather interesting acount of this on austrian television in the early 80-ties. She was told that Rudolf was murdered by the french secret service.

Another one for the list: Friedrich III's disappointed wife Victoria-Adelaide (aka Vicky, the eldest daughter of Queen Victoria of GB). Such high expectations, so many disappointments & humiliations (and what a terrible son).
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  #76  
Old 08-25-2005, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
Empress Zita gave a rather interesting acount of this on austrian television in the early 80-ties. She was told that Rudolf was murdered by the french secret service.

...
That's interesting... Told by whom, by Franz Joseph?
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Old 08-25-2005, 08:11 AM
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I had to consult the book I have about this ('Zita, keizerin van Oostenrijk, koningin van Hongarije' by E.H.P. Cordfunke. Apparently I was a bit confused. She did not say it during a television interview but later. Let me quote from this book:

'In march 1983 empress Zita surprised many by announcing that she would reveal the true cause of the drama in Mayerling. This announcement reached the international press. The conviction of the empress was that it was not suicide but a calculated political murder. During those days she heard the ins and outs from a number of close relatives. 'I have written down everything, which was told to me under the strict promise of secrecy'.
In her opinion Rudolf knew about an international conspiricy to bring down his father, but when he redfused to coorporate in this he got murdered. Emperor Franz-Joseph was informed about this but kept silent, to avoid worse.
In his book 'Kaiser Karl' Viennese publicist Erich Feigl elaborates about this issue and gives away, with the authorisation of empress Zita, the secret, who was behind the conspiricy. It was the french prime minister Clemenceau who wanted, through Rudolf, a Franco-Austrian alliance. After the fall of Franz-Joseph, Rudolf -whos anti german symapathies were widely known- would free himself from the alliances with Germany and Italy. Through Cornelius Herz -who introduced electricity in Paris and afterwords in Vienna, Rudolf was contacted about this plan by Clemenceau. Because Rudolf refused, hired murderers silenced him. Empress Zita added that, immidiately after her husband became emperor, Karl did everything he could to get as much evidence as possible, in which he did not succeed.'

the chapter goes on that it is supported by a letter from Leopold II to his brother, the count of Flanders. And that apparently Rudolf told his aunt, Archduchess Maria-Theresa (nee princess of Portugal, also an aunt of Empress Zita & stephgrandmother of Emperor Karl) about the whole affair.
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  #78  
Old 08-25-2005, 10:12 AM
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Marengo, that's an interesting version... But there are several holes in it.

1) Clemenceau first assumed the position of Prime Minister in 1906, 17 years after Mayerling. He wasn't even a minister in 1889.

2) The French Government was too preoccupied with the Boulangist movement in January 1889 to venture in such a dangerous international gamble.

3) Mary Vetsera died several hours before Rudolf. Why did the French agents murder the hapless girl first?

4) Vetsera also wrote several letters regarding her impending death in the last day of her life. How did she manage to do it if it were the French?

5) Why didn't the Court claim that the Crown Prince and the girl had been killed 'by person or persons unknown'? Convicting some peasant of double murder could have done no harm to the monarchy, too... Instead the Court admitted publicly that the Crown Prince was a deranged man, and Franz Joseph had to apply to the Pope for a permission to let Rudolf have a Christian funeral.
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Old 08-25-2005, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
I beg to differ on these issues.
I have a book which contains the correspondence between Alix and Nicky, and the letter which contains this quote is there. Furthermore the remark is quoted by several respectable authors in several books about the Romanovs.

I think that the horror of Empress Marie Feodorovna was so big because her son married a commoner. Add to that that she probably knew about her grandsons state of health, so she suspected that one day the crown might go to her son Michael and his descendants, which was not possible anymore because of this marriage & she might have suspected that the purple would eventually go to the offspring of hers (and everybodys) favourite enemy, Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna the Elder.
Dagmar also refused to meet the second husband of her daughter Olga as well, even when she was already living in excile in Denmark. I never heard of her anti-semitism, in Coryne Halls extended biography on Dagmar there is not even one remark about it. Where did you get this information, as I find it most intruiging?

In several biographies I read, there is clearly stated that Empress Alexandra F. did not allow her daughters to see any familymember. This was in the last/later years of her husbands reign, but still before the murder of Rasputin. It is true that a before the girls were allowed to see their grandmother.

Are u talking about Alicky, was she a commoner, she was daughter of P. Alice and Grndduke of Hesse- Darmstadt- maybe u were referring to another son ?
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Old 08-25-2005, 11:46 AM
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For me it is Queen Caroline Mathilde of Denmark (Married to her mad cousin Christian 7. of Denmark), Queen Sophie Magdalene of Sweden (Married Gustaf 3 of Sweden witch mother hated the young princess), Queen Anne of Britain (Lost all of her children i think she lost 18)
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