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  #61  
Old 07-31-2011, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
To me Britain would be imeasurably impoverished if it ever became a republic.
Agreed, and I think that if the US had remained a monarchy, it would be just as embedded in the American identity.
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  #62  
Old 08-01-2011, 07:04 PM
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I'm very much a royalist but I don't have strong feelings about whether a former monarchy should be restored. I find it fascinating that there are so many different royal households in the world (never knew that there were so many of them).

Sometimes I wonder what it would have been like if George Washington or another founding father installed an American monarchy? What would it be like. It probably would be a more democratic monarchy (the way the British monarchy is today as opposed to 1776) and probably would be years ahead of its time. I don't think European royalty would accept it as royal for a long time. Those who married into it would be American society or the upper crust for the most part. Most likely the monarchy would be Protestant (it would be interesting if any laws would be written regarding what religion the royals could or couldn't marry into) My guess is the law would be similiar to England (The monarch would have to be Protestant and because of the anti-Catholic sentiment at the time would bar marriage to someone who is Catholic). Most likely this would be overturned by now in the United States if a Monarchy existed.
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  #63  
Old 08-01-2011, 07:25 PM
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As I understand it Washington was offered to be King but declined. Now I don't think it would of be 'king' as in the type of government as England. There were Catholics involved in the Declaration of Independence and Maryland was a Catholic colony so perhaps there would of been less issue on that....although several colonies/states had laws against Catholicism so who knows.


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  #64  
Old 08-01-2011, 07:59 PM
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If Washington had accepted the offer, whatever he set down would pretty much be in place, although I'm sure over the 230 something years there would be changes but the changes would be reflective of the society, rather than European royalty whose changes came very very slowly.

Forty or 30 years ago a lot of royal households in Europe were living in another century and many of the rules were outmoded. Didn't reflect modern society and was antiqued. I really feel sorry for those who had to live through that time period as they were restricted in what they could or couldn't do or who they could marry. You had some that were bold and did what they wanted but most of them just went along. 19th century in 20th century World. Now they are pretty much in modern society.

Many people like me are fascinated with the lives of royals. Of course, we are on the outside looking in. They don't know our world and we don't knows theirs, although we can imagine what it would be like to be a royal.

I wonder if any of the royals are fascinated or have been fascinated with how the average person lives. Perhaps they may be envious of a person who could go shopping or go to a movie and be left alone. Or dine out with no one bothering you. Come and go as you please. This is probably something many of them have dreamed about but have never had in their life.
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  #65  
Old 08-01-2011, 08:10 PM
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Where have you girls been. I taught history for so many years. George Washington, never wanted to be a king. He knew the evils of monarchy. Maryland was Catholic, by Jame Olgethorpe. Founded in the name of Mary. It was, really, inconcievable, that we would be a monarchy. The Continental Congress did their best. John Adams would have been appalled. We are, thank the Lord, what we are. England is fine with who they are. And the Romanov's are toast.
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  #66  
Old 08-01-2011, 08:42 PM
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I'm fully aware Countess that George Washington never wanted to be King or established a monarchy or establish an American Royal Family. The same would be true for the founding fathers as well. I'm just saying what if he did or trying to imagine what it might be like if a monarchy was established in the United States, that's all.
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  #67  
Old 08-01-2011, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by nascarlucy View Post
Sometimes I wonder what it would have been like if George Washington or another founding father installed an American monarchy?
Agreed- I wonder if there is a book about it, as I also recall that it was considered at the time. I'd guess that it would have been like the British system, but more democratic (for the day).

In a way I'd have liked that better (as we've had some real duds as President, and I like having a nonpartisan head of state), but then again, I do like the "liberty or else" streak in the US, with the sense that all power comes from the people, not from the government.

If the US did have a monarchy, I'd want the electorate to vote to install it- even kings should be aware that their power comes from the people, and not the reverse.
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  #68  
Old 08-01-2011, 09:20 PM
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I never said Washington wanted to be king...I said it was offered to him and he refused.


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  #69  
Old 08-01-2011, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by CSENYC View Post
Agreed- I wonder if there is a book about it, as I also recall that it was considered at the time. I'd guess that it would have been like the British system, but more democratic (for the day).

In a way I'd have liked that better (as we've had some real duds as President, and I like having a nonpartisan head of state), but then again, I do like the "liberty or else" streak in the US, with the sense that all power comes from the people, not from the government.

If the US did have a monarchy, I'd want the electorate to vote to install it- even kings should be aware that their power comes from the people, and not the reverse.
Well, we'd probably have a Prime Minister if we were a monarchy and you;d have had those same duds in that office. Plus, let's face it, if we don'[t like the President, we can always vote him out- a little harder to do that with a king. I love to read about the royals, but I don't want one of them heading my country
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  #70  
Old 08-01-2011, 09:39 PM
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Well, we'd probably have a Prime Minister if we were a monarchy and you;d have had those same duds in that office. Plus, let's face it, if we don'[t like the President, we can always vote him out- a little harder to do that with a king. I love to read about the royals, but I don't want one of them heading my country
True on both, but:

(1) Yes, the highest elected official can be a dud, but I like having someone above that who isn't a polarizing attack dog like some of our recent Presidents. Queen Elizabeth would perhaps be a dud if she actually governed, for example, but she's a superstar in her job, since it's not a job involving governing.

(2) Yes, we can technically vote out a President, but the US has had many stretches in which one party is dominant at least at the Presidential level (Republicans 1870s-1932, Democrats 1932-1968, Republicans 1968-1992 or maybe even longer)- for people in the minority party during those stretches, it's demoralizing to have the top job in the land held by someone who can be vocal in his contempt towards them.

Sidenote: I wonder if the South in 1861 ever considered having a monarchy?
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  #71  
Old 08-01-2011, 09:49 PM
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I'm interested in royalty but I'm American and I would not support a monarchy here in the U.S. But I would like to see some of monarchies given constitutional status.
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  #72  
Old 08-02-2011, 08:08 PM
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CSENYC: That would be interesting. A elected US monarchy. Very unique. Of course this would only be good if the monarchy had political clout. If they didn't, then I'm not sure that you would have to elect them. This would be an interesting story to write about.

I've read a lot of books and to my knowledge I've never read a book about a US monarchy or what that monarchy might be like or how it might function.

I've never heard of the South wanted to install a monarchy in 1861 after they broke away from the Union. They installed a President of the Confederacy and the government setup was similiar to the one in Washington. I believe they had something similiar to the Congress (the various states had representatives, I believe).

I can't really see a monarchy in the South then or today.
It wouldn't work very well especially if the monarch wanted complete political and social control of the South (which he would). The Confederate States would highly resent this monarch and try to overthrow him for having too much power or political control over the Confederacy. It would be a disaster.

I know that George Washington turned down the offer to be King. What I'm talking about is what if or hypothetically what a US Monarchy might look like if he or some other founding father accepted the offer.
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  #73  
Old 08-02-2011, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by nascarlucy View Post
CSENYC: That would be interesting. A elected US monarchy. Very unique. Of course this would only be good if the monarchy had political clout.
I may not have been clear enough- the electorate should vote to create the institution of a monarchy, although once the monarchy existed, it would be like any other. (Same in every country where there is the possibility of restoring a monarchy- it should be done only if the people want it.) No government should be imposed from above on the people.
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  #74  
Old 08-02-2011, 09:51 PM
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I may not have been clear enough- the electorate should vote to create the institution of a monarchy, although once the monarchy existed, it would be like any other. (Same in every country where there is the possibility of restoring a monarchy- it should be done only if the people want it.) No government should be imposed from above on the people.
But that is, exactly, what monarchy is. It is imposed by the guy with the biggest sword, telling the little peoeple that God ordained him to rule over them and their children, talent or not will inherit the lot All the rest is democracy.
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  #75  
Old 08-02-2011, 10:27 PM
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But that is, exactly, what monarchy is. It is imposed by the guy with the biggest sword, telling the little peoeple that God ordained him to rule over them and their children, talent or not will inherit the lot All the rest is democracy.
That's very true, and who would decide who would be the monarch in the US? And no, the South never considered a monarchy in 1861. They had a Constitution modeled very closely on the US Constitution, their President however was elected for one term of 6 years. They did have a Congress too, but it was never very effective as they could never agree on much of anything.
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  #76  
Old 08-02-2011, 10:39 PM
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Norway invited a Danish prince to be their king in 1905. Another Danish prince was elected by the Greek people to be their king in 1863. William and Mary were offered the throne by the English parliament.

Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
But that is, exactly, what monarchy is. It is imposed by the guy with the biggest sword, telling the little peoeple that God ordained him to rule over them and their children, talent or not will inherit the lot All the rest is democracy.
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  #77  
Old 08-03-2011, 07:26 PM
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But that is, exactly, what monarchy is. It is imposed by the guy with the biggest sword, telling the little peoeple that God ordained him to rule over them and their children, talent or not will inherit the lot All the rest is democracy.
That kind of monarchy is long gone, at least in Western Europe.

See below for how monarchy in Norway was established, for example. This is exactly how it should work: the people vote for it.

Norwegian monarchy plebiscite, 1905 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And "All the rest is democracy"? Libya, for example, is "the rest"; it's not a democracy. Same for China and lots of other countries.
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  #78  
Old 08-03-2011, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by CSENYC View Post
That kind of monarchy is long gone, at least in Western Europe.

See below for how monarchy in Norway was established, for example. This is exactly how it should work: the people vote for it.

Norwegian monarchy plebiscite, 1905 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And "All the rest is democracy"? Libya, for example, is "the rest"; it's not a democracy. Same for China and lots of other countries.
China, Libya, that has nothing to do with democracy. What I was referring to, is once you have a monarchy, you have people who inherit the throne. No elections, good or bad. So, Haakon, whom , I happen to like, will inherit, as did his father. But you could have a nitwit. Won't matter. Please, try not to mix metaphors. But, perhaps, I was not clear, forgive me.
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  #79  
Old 08-03-2011, 08:48 PM
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Sorry but I can't agree.

In most every Western European country, while the monarch isn't directly elected by the people, the monarch obtains the position following rules of succession which are usually in the country's constitution or are determined by the country's legislature. That is democratic. (Even in the US, the President isn't directly elected- the Electoral College casts ballots for the President and, as the 2000 election showed, doesn't have to follow the popular vote.)

And true, the monarch inherits the throne, but monarchs in Western European countries don't have much if any real political power. The prime minister in a monarchy is elected, and that's where the power lies.

Democracies also have plenty of leaders who are not elected but who have a lot of power- much more than a Western European king or queen. For example, Ben Bernanke, the chairman of the US Federal Reserve, has a huge influence on the US and world economy. He isn't elected; he's picked by the President and Congress.

And which countries in the world are the most democratic and free? Disproportionately constitutional monarchies:

Democracy Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of the 10 most free and most democratic countries, 7 are monarchies. (Note: the US ranks 17th.)
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  #80  
Old 08-05-2011, 02:59 AM
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We must not assume that because a country is a constitutional monarchy is less democratic than a republic. The model democracies of the world are in Europe (Switzerland, United Kindom, Finland, Denmark, etc...) and is because these are profoundly democratic peoples with a long tradition of parliamentary system and respect of the law. The United States are OK.
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