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  #21  
Old 04-20-2012, 02:55 PM
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I'm just wondering but is the order of the garter only available or given to members of the BRF ? not a Windsor prince's wife ?
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  #22  
Old 04-20-2012, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Grandduchess24 View Post
I'm just wondering but is the order of the garter only available or given to members of the BRF ? not a Windsor prince's wife ?
Royals are counted in two separate categories to the 24 Knights and Ladies Companion who can be submitted to the Order. You have Royal Knights and Ladies from the BRF solely and then Stranger Knights and Ladies which consist of reigning royal monarchs from around the globe. If a monarch wished either Sophie, Camilla, Catherine or any future spouse to be a member of the Order they could do so.
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  #23  
Old 12-15-2012, 02:37 PM
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I was reading the article on wikipedia about the Order of the Garter and got the feeling that this order is a very special one but also a very personal gift from the queen. probably the only order in which the queen really choses the people she gives the order to.
and then i investigated briefly the list of members in it, including the 24 knights, and noticed that many of them were politicians of the Conservative party, including Baroness Tatcher and Sir John Major who were prime-ministers. I see no one from Labour there, for example. Doesn't this constitutes a problem in the public opinion in UK? I mean, the Knights are people the Queen trusts and seem somehow close to her (even if just in official situations and not really friends), right? I know the tories usually have more conections with the aristocracy than any other party, and many of these men besides being politicians are also aristocrats (or at least titled people), but, for example, this is not the case of John Major... Why was he chosen? For his services to the UK as a prime-minister? I doubt so, at least, I cannot figure out Tony Blair wearing the robe with the Order Isn't the Queen somehow showing her preferences? I know the Order has no power at all, so at the end it doesn't really matter, but still it's symbolical... I wonder how people in the uk look at this?
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  #24  
Old 12-15-2012, 02:53 PM
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The Order of the Garter is within the personal gift of the Queen and she never gives reasons for appointments as far as I know.
The Queen is allowed to have a bias in this case because its in her personal gift. If she doesn't like Tony Blair (and who does) the Queen is not obligated to appoint him just because there are Tory members who are knights.
The Queen is free to appoint the entire front bench of the Tory party as long as there were the vacancies
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  #25  
Old 12-15-2012, 03:05 PM
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Former British Prime Ministers are almost certain to become members of the Order of Garter at some point, however it's neither an automatic, nor an immediate process; it usually takes several years after PMs left the office for them to be awarded the honour. Margaret Thatcher became a Lady of the Order in 1995 (5 years after she left the office) and John Major became Knight in 2005 (8 years after he left the office). Though I am not one ofTony Blair's biggest fans, he will most probably become Knight at some point, and the same goes for Gordon Brown.

Although only a handful of politicians have actually been awarded the honour of becoming a Knight and/or Lady of the Order of Garter, it is certainly not limited to Conservatives only. For instance, James Callaghan (Labour Prime Minster from 1976 to 1979) was created Knight of the Order in 1987.
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  #26  
Old 12-16-2012, 06:48 AM
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Harold Wilson, Labour Prime Minister 1964-70 and 1974-76 was also a Knight of the Garter.
Wilson and James Callaghan (KG) have been described as the Prime Ministers with whom HM related to/got on with best. Both men were from the Labour Party.
Edward Heath, Conservative Prime Minister 1970-74 received his Garter in 1992.

Former Labour PM Gordon Brown cannot be made a KG before Tony Blair [protocol constraint] and Tony Blair has not been offered it, supposedly due to his being on the outer with the Palace (and Prince William).
A Google search of 'tony blair order of the garter' will bring up a number of possible reasons.
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  #27  
Old 12-16-2012, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren View Post
Former Labour PM Gordon Brown cannot be made a KG before Tony Blair [protocol constraint] and Tony Blair has not been offered it, supposedly due to his being on the outer with the Palace (and Prince William).
A Google search of 'tony blair order of the garter' will bring up a number of possible reasons.

I've just looked that up Warren,many thanks and I think it answers my questions
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  #28  
Old 12-16-2012, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
Former Labour PM Gordon Brown cannot be made a KG before Tony Blair [protocol constraint] and Tony Blair has not been offered it, supposedly due to his being on the outer with the Palace (and Prince William).
A Google search of 'tony blair order of the garter' will bring up a number of possible reasons.
I don't think there are actually any protocol constraints regarding appointment of former Prime Ministers to the Order.
Edward Heath served as a Prime Minister from 1970 to 1974, yet he was appointed to the Order only in 1992 - after Harold Wilson (who served as PM from 1974 to 1976 and became Knight of the Order in 1976) and James Callaghan (who served as PM from 1976 to 1979 and became Knight of the Order in 1987).

In regards to Tony Blair, I do sincerely hope he never becomes Knight of the Order; however, he was a Prime Minister for 10 years - the only Labour leader to lead his party to three consecutive general election victories. Regardless of the unfortunate legacy he has left in certain areas, it would be a great snub to the Labour Party if both its last Prime Ministers were denied the honour.
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  #29  
Old 12-16-2012, 07:55 AM
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"Protocol constraints" is a useful term which may disguise unpleasant detail. Not so much a euphemism, but since protocol is an arcane and esoteric subject, further elaboration is neatly sidestepped.
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  #30  
Old 12-16-2012, 08:05 AM
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The honours system in Britain is broken and everyone admits it. If the Garter is in HM's personal gift and there really are no 'unwritten rules' as to who she appoints, than I can guarantee Tony B will never become a Knight.
The man is universally loathed and millions of people in the UK believe he should be in the dock in the Hague for war crimes rather than a Knight of the Garter.
Any sovereign who would appoint him would have it as the biggest blight on their reign, no matter if they were to be on the throne a hundred years
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  #31  
Old 12-16-2012, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
"Protocol constraints" is a useful term which may disguise unpleasant detail. Not so much a euphemism, but since protocol is an arcane and esoteric subject, further elaboration is neatly sidestepped.
Protocol can indeed a useful tool to sidestep potentially tricky situations.
I do agree though it is unlikely Gordon Brown becomes a Knight of the Order before Tony Blair (if the latter ever happens).
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  #32  
Old 01-05-2013, 12:03 PM
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I don't believe that former PM's have received the OG whilst still politically active. Gordon Brown is still an MP and Tony Blair - as Middle East Envoy has a role in middle east politics.
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  #33  
Old 01-05-2013, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post

In regards to Tony Blair, I do sincerely hope he never becomes Knight of the Order; however, he was a Prime Minister for 10 years - the only Labour leader to lead his party to three consecutive general election victories. Regardless of the unfortunate legacy he has left in certain areas, it would be a great snub to the Labour Party if both its last Prime Ministers were denied the honour.
I agree with you Artemisia. Moreover,regarding war, HM's PMs hardly have another option than to tow US Presidents' line. I think Tony Blair does deserve this. Even not inviting him and Brown to the Royal Wedding (and even the explanation given) also didnt impress me.. The BRF willingly appears 'right than centre' to me..
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  #34  
Old 01-05-2013, 12:10 PM
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I don't believe that former PM's have received the OG whilst still politically active. Gordon Brown is still an MP and Tony Blair - as Middle East Envoy has a role in middle east politics.
Not necessarily. Harold Wilson was made Knight of the Order of Garter in 1976. He had been Prime Minster from 1974 to 1976, and while he was awarded the honour shortly after leaving the office of PM, he was certainly politically active; among other things, he was MP for Huyton until 1983.
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  #35  
Old 01-05-2013, 07:43 PM
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Guys, it's best to avoid directly quoting large slabs of Wiki in one hit as doing so is basically a cut and paste job.
Quoting small relevant sections generally suffices, along with the acknowledgement and a link to the relevant page or pages (where members can choose to read the finer detail).

thanks for everyone's understanding and cooperation,

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  #36  
Old 02-24-2015, 12:19 PM
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Does anyone know exactly when the vestments for the Order of the Garter (men) changed from white pantaloons/breeches to dark trousers? I can tell it happened during the reign of George VI from portraits and photos. I suspect it happened during the War because of shortages/privations. I just can't find any documentation about when the change occurred and why. Does anyone have any knowledge about this?
Thanks for any reply/info.
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  #37  
Old 02-24-2015, 04:03 PM
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I am not sure that it has officially changed. I think that when you see portraits of Geo VI and the recently discovered pictures of the Duke of Windsor (Edw VIII), they are wearing white knee-breeches as part of the most formal wearing of the complete costume - worn at coronations and the like. I am not sure if, even on Garter Day, Knights wore white breeches.

No doubt that, as styles have changed, so has the costume. It is pretty rare to see Prince Philip or Prince Charles wearing knee breeches at all - now mostly at state banquets or the Diplomatic Reception.

The knee Garter is not worn with uniform which tends to be the attire quite often worn by the garter's royal knights.

I would hazard a guess that we will very rarely - if ever - see Princes William or Harry in knee breeches. Neither of them have even worn a kilt since they were about 5!
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  #38  
Old 04-29-2015, 08:10 PM
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well, it takes a bit of time to learn these things. Ya'll learn this stuff in public school? Remember, I am an American. Here, these identifying uniforms, I haven't seen, in Orders, but if the law enforcement and military are knowledgeable, and surely they must be, if they see them here they might have questions. In America someone is gonna call the nearest military base, local law and the pentagon if they see remotely England govt. uniform looking. And yeah we like England. I am ignorant, that is why I am sharing. There are a lot of ignorant people to England's orders, ranks and customs. Some people understand little of the masons here, alone, remember. I understand these Orders of knights and garters to be a special part of the crown. Why do I feel like somewhere someone ought to remind someone not to fraternize with the help, pay attention to what is being taught. Oh, anyway, I am going to try to grasp this history again. Seriously, my comment is my first initial response, I'll learn because I appreciate history. Excuse me.
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  #39  
Old 04-29-2015, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Thumbahlina View Post
well, it takes a bit of time to learn these things. Ya'll learn this stuff in public school? Remember, I am an American. Here, these identifying uniforms, I haven't seen, in Orders, but if the law enforcement and military is knowledgeable, and surely they must be, if they see them here they might have questions. In America someone is gonna call the nearest military base, local law and the pentagon if they see remotely England govt. uniform looking. And yeah we like England. I am ignorant, that is why I am sharing. There are a lot of ignorant people to England's orders, ranks and customs. Some people understand little of the masons here, alone, remember. I understand these Orders of knights and garters to be a special part of the crown. Why do I feel like somewhere someone ought to remind someone not to fraternize with the help, pay attention to what is being taught. Oh, anyway, I am going to try to grasp this history again. Seriously, my comment is my first initial response, I'll learn because I appreciate history. Excuse me.
To look at the Knights all dressed up in their regalia (I think the upcoming investiture of any new Knights will be around the time of Ascot Week), there is no way ever they'd be mistaken for military uniforms. Its a chivalric order that goes quite a way back into British history. The only comparison I can possibly think of to compare it with in the US would perhaps be the Knights of Columbus or Elks or those types of organizations but still those won't come close to what the Order of the Garter is. Best thing to do is what I did when I first got here. Read through all the threads on a subject you want to know more about. From there you can build a pretty good profile of keywords to branch out even further on the internet.

Just wait till conversations pop up about the Opening of Parliament. There is so much pomp and pageantry and traditions for this that it amazed me to find out just how much it entails.

Pull up a comfy chair and a hot pot of tea and settle in for some really good learning experiences around here.
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  #40  
Old 04-29-2015, 10:46 PM
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...oh ok thank you. I will be here learning.
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